Indonesia Defence Forum

[HellFireIndo]

Continue KFX, continue other programs too, fair enough right?

 

[nufix]

Most probably imported rifle, Islamic Kingdoms in Indonesia get supported by Ottoman Turkey who can make rifle. While Majapahit I believe use firearms from China. There is no recorded history that said Indonesia in the ancient time produce rifle.

Those story also just said Majapahit use firearm, not making it. Our ancestors did many trading from powerful nation like China as well. They can buy firearm (the most complex weapon at that time) from them.

Do you know why they dont make it ??? Most probably similar reasons of why you guys now prefer buying many F16 V and F35 than giving the money for KFX/IFX program, because it is due to unproven design and so on and so on, we dont have much time and we need to add more fighter bla bla bla.

Although by seeing our dispute with China in our North Natuna sea which is actually dispute in ZEE (not our territory), there is no one with good logical mind ever think that China will make a war with Indonesia over that small ZEE dispute and sacrifice huge trade surplus that China have from doing trading with us every year. Not to mention getting Indonesia to be with USA camp, their main enemy. CCP is not that stupid.

We dont have enough budget so better use it properly. We are projected to reach 3 trillion GDP in 2034. Our defense budget will be quite huge by seeing how India can spend their military budget with GDP sligthly less than 3 trillion. There are still 14 years ahead. So we hope when we actually can be at that level inshaAllah, many of our weapon system are produced by ourselves, so it will bring more sustainability to our defense budget as it correlates more to our economy.

Pre Islamic kingdoms did produce firearms, at least early types of canon and arquebus known as Javanese Arquebus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetbang

 

[Nike]

Most probably imported rifle, Islamic Kingdoms in Indonesia get supported by Ottoman Turkey who can make rifle. While Majapahit I believe use firearms from China. There is no recorded history that said Indonesia in the ancient time produce rifle.

Those story also just said Majapahit use firearm, not making it. Our ancestors did many trading from powerful nation like China as well. They can buy firearm (the most complex weapon at that time) from them.

Do you know why they dont make it ??? Most probably similar reasons of why you guys now prefer buying many F16 V and F35 than giving the money for KFX/IFX program, because it is due to unproven design and so on and so on, we dont have much time and we need to add more fighter bla bla bla.

Although by seeing our dispute with China in our North Natuna sea which is actually dispute in ZEE (not our territory), there is no one with good logical mind ever think that China will make a war with Indonesia over that small ZEE dispute and sacrifice huge trade surplus that China have from doing trading with us every year. Not to mention getting Indonesia to be with USA camp, their main enemy. CCP is not that stupid.

We dont have enough budget so better use it properly.

Whatever with you and your obsession with Islamic brotherhood even looking down Majapahit accomplishment technology in firearms, even though in Museum Gajah, Leiden and New York there is prove of Majapahit Cetbang and notes about their own design of firearms. Cetbang itself very different in design from contemporary European and Middle East in which most of them muzzle loading type, while Cetbang is breech loading type. At the time Nusantara kingdoms developed their own firearms technology including mass production of Black powder, metal like bronze and steel (so they can Made complex personal weapons like Keris) .Even during Bubat war is known Sunda Padjadjaran Kingdom also use Cannon to hold back Majapahit troops.

Pre Islamic kingdoms did produce firearms, at least early types of canon and arquebus known as Javanese Arquebus.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetbang
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetbang

Considering most of the rest of the world still using cold steel technology to wage their campaign, large Nusantara kingdoms at the time is quite advance to already put Cannon on their warships and fortification settlement.

 

[Gundala]

as a cultured Indonesian boy, I think the sentences you're looking for is "lebih besar pasak daripada tiang". am I right ?

Not really but close enough.

@Indos says from the KFX program we get the technological share, and enough knowledge to build our own stealth in the future. some other member says we dont. so which one is the truth, or are we all dancing with rumours ? as I remember, there's no official statement from government yet that stated what we would get from this program specifically (in details), besides the public knowledges that if we continue that we can build our own stealth fighter in the future (CMIIW). so far they always said we are renegotiating the terms.

You know Im pretty sure couple of guys in here knows alot more then what they say. But to reveal it thats another thing (secrecy, law, politic, etc). What they can do is giving us hints, and sometime those "hints" are out there in the open source. And dont get misslead by politic propaganda/marketing saying "If we continue We can build our own STEALTH fighter in the future". It takes a whole lot more money, whole lot more time and the possibility of ending up making not so good product with the price tag higher than those from the shelf/other country.

Mending kita membumi aja, majukan teknologi dengan apa yg kita ada dan kita punya. PT.DI will concentrate on comercial airplane and UAV. Those two is within our "range"/capacity. Missiles - we going to need thousands of them in a future, thats economically sustainable. The point is focus on what we can do and spcialize on it, the RD budget is already small if we spreading too thin we might ended up getting NOTHING done.

Looking at N219 as our other airplane project, lets see if PT.DI can do it without PMN (Penyertaan Modal Negara/Dibantu APBN) in order to produce it. If they manage to do it then lets talk about building a fighter.....

 

[umigami]

Whatever with you and your obsession with Islamic brotherhood even looking down Majapahit accomplishment technology in firearms, even though in Museum Gajah, Leiden and New York there is prove of Majapahit Cetbang and notes about their own design of firearms. Cetbang itself very different in design from contemporary European and Middle East in which most of them muzzle loading type, while Cetbang is breech loading type. At the time Nusantara kingdoms developed their own firearms technology including mass production of Black powder, metal like bronze and steel (so they can Made complex personal weapons like Keris) .Even during Bubat war is known Sunda Padjadjaran Kingdom also use Cannon to hold back Majapahit troops.



Considering most of the rest of the world still using cold steel technology to wage their campaign, large Nusantara kingdoms at the time is quite advance to already put Cannon on their warships and fortification settlement.

I bet they can make a lot of black powder because they had a lot of cattle poops. They are hindu and cattle/cow is sacred animal for them, so they can't consume them but on the other hand had a lot of them which mean A LOT of nitrogen sources.

 

[Chestnut]

Because a farmer from bumfuc Wyoming knows better about running the country than the more numerously educated californian it seems. Also this is one reason why people seldom vote. Imagine if indonesian this being apathetic towards democracy.

Why do I fear your YouTube & Twitter subs are filled with online culture warriors nonsense.

I hate the libs as much as you do but I don't go around spreading obvious propagandas.

That's a very dangerous assumption to make, but I'm not going to get into it since it'll be a very long conversation.

as a cultured Indonesian boy, I think the sentences you're looking for is "lebih besar pasak daripada tiang". am I right ?
@Indos says from the KFX program we get the technological share, and enough knowledge to build our own stealth in the future. some other member says we dont. so which one is the truth, or are we all dancing with rumours ? as I remember, there's no official statement from government yet that stated what we would get from this program specifically (in details), besides the public knowledges that if we continue that we can build our own stealth fighter in the future (CMIIW). so far they always said we are renegotiating the terms.

To summarize, the reality is that we:

1. Have junior IP rights (meaning that the ROK can simply veto anything we do with it if they don't want us to do it).
2. No resell rights.
3. No access to developed technologies (especially the much needed software, electronic, and internal avionic systems).
4. No guarantee that we have local manufacturing rights.

(i) This is a similar scheme of the F-35 program, in that all the core technologies still belong to Lockheed Martin (and by extension the United States) DESPITE members of the international consortium contributing researchers and companies into the program. Thus any attempt to use those technologies without explicit permission by the IP owner (Lockheed Martin) would result in a veto by the United States Government.

Because of that, the only people from the JSF program who are continuing on their own indigenous 5th/6th gen programs are those who already HAVE experience in fighter development and manufacturing prior to the program, namely the United Kingdom and Turkey. It is HIGHLY unlikely that we would be able to continue work on our KFX's without South Korean help even after the initial development program ends.

PTDI would have learned a lot more in fighter development had they gone through the proper steps to build experience on manufacturing combat aircraft by starting off with licensed manufacturing of a COTS design, similar to how the ROK started off with the F-16 in the 1990's.

For example, PTDI could have taken up Airbus's offer during the initial F-5 replacement program and locally assemble/manufacture Typhoons, as well as integrate the electronic systems locally at its facilities in Bandung. Or if they didn't want to go with Airbus, they could have taken LM's offer and do more complex spare part manufacturing and avionic integration work for the F-16's.

(i) The most valuable skill that PTDI can learn is not airframe design, but rather integration and manufacturing of sensitive avionics and electronic components. All modern aerospace manufacturing have the capability to design airframes be it combat or transport, it is only a matter of research and development.

Instead, PTDI tried to run when they didn't even know how to crawl yet. We skipped the proper steps on indigenous fighter development and are now stuck in a bad deal. And a lot of people are clouded by blind nationalism that they don't realize that they are essentially in denial over the reality of the situation.

All this talk about how Korea needs PTDI and Indonesia is also false. The reality is that the Koreans are more than capable of funding and developing everything themselves (for example the radar and IRST system) and we are only still in the program simply because they don't want to harm relations with us.

The bitter truth that many people refuse to accept is that THEY. DON'T. NEED. US.

 

[Nike]

Not really but close enough.


You know Im pretty sure couple of guys in here knows alot more then what they say. But to reveal it thats another thing (secrecy, law, politic, etc). What they can do is giving us hints, and sometime those "hints" are out there in the open source. And dont get misslead by politic propaganda/marketing saying "If we continue We can build our own STEALTH fighter in the future". It takes a whole lot more money, whole lot more time and the possibility of ending up making not so good product with the price tag higher than those from the shelf/other country.

Mending kita membumi aja, majukan teknologi dengan apa yg kita ada dan kita punya. PT.DI will concentrate on comercial airplane and UAV. Those two is within our "range"/capacity. Missiles - we going to need thousands of them in a future, thats economically sustainable. The point is focus on what we can do and spcialize on it, the RD budget is already small if we spreading too thin we might ended up getting NOTHING done.

Looking at N219 as our other airplane project, lets see if PT.DI can do it without PMN (Penyertaan Modal Negara/Dibantu APBN) in order to produce it. If they manage to do it then lets talk about building a fighter.....

err actually not

we need to boost our development and acquire technology to build, designing and made as much as subsystem in a modern fighter jet as soon as possible. The problem is, KFX with iFX program doesn't provide much with what all we needed to acquire such capability. The limitation mostly came from our own, and the other reason came from the other side. In the past actually Habibie and Indonesia government had came with solution to license production Hawk in large number for our own use, but the deal fall through because of embargoe and economy crisis so we can't sustain such program anymore even when we want to do it.

BTW, looking at Turkey current condition, though US sanction limited embargoe on them, their current Aviation industry can cope with such condition because they are able to sustain and acquire technology needed when they are license production the F 16 fighter in large number including the Engine. Why they can do that? We need to look back what they had do and what they are gaining when license production of F-16 at large number

In September 1983, the government of Turkey announced plans to buy 132 F-16C's and 24 F-16D's under the Peace Onyx I program, which operates under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program. The first eight aircraft in the order were to be built at Fort Worth, but the remaining 148 aircraft were to be assembled in Turkey at TUSAS Aerospace Industries (TAI) at Akinci (formerly Mürted). TUSAS is an acronym which stands for Turkiye Ucak Sanayii AS, or Turkish Aircraft Industries, which is a company owned jointly by Turkish and American shareholders.

TAI has also been awarded a contract to build wings, center fuselages, and aft fuselages for USAF F-16s. They have also been awarded a contract to build 46 Block 40 F-16C/D's for the Egyptian Air Force under the Peace Vector IV program (to be delivered through the USAF of course).

In March of 1992, a follow-on order for two batches of 40 block 50 F-16C/D's (68 C's and 12 D's) was placed under the Peace Onyx II FMS program. The funding of the first 40 planes will be met primarily by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the Emirates. Peace Onyx II started with the production of F-16 Block 50, serial number #93-0657. The program is worth some USD $3.5 billion. TEI (Turkish Engine Industries) will supply 96 F129 IPE engines, ASELSAN will produce 100 LN93-RLG. The Peace Onyx II aircraft were delevered from 1996 till 1997.

The Peace Onyx I Block 40 aircraft are fitted with the GPS navigation system (LN-39 INS license-built by ASELSAN), APG-68(V) radar, automatic terrain-following radar, digital flight controls, more efficient chaff and flare dispensers, and the ability to carry AIM-7 and AIM-120 radar-guided BVR missiles. These Block 40 aircraft are also compatible with the LANTIRN low-level night navigation and attack system, and are powered by General Electric F110-GE-100 engines, which are built under license by TAI Engines at Eskisehir. In 1994, TAI began the Falcon-Up modification program on the Peace Onyx I aircraft, consisting mainly of structural improvements.

PEACE ONYX-IV covers local assembly of 30 Advanced Block 50+s. (16 -C and 14 -D). Deliveries was scheduled for 2011-2012. PO-IV F-16s will have CFTs, indigenious LGB, GPS/INS stand-off weapons, AN/ALQ-178[V]5+ SPEWS-III ECMs, Sniper (probably) and AselPod NTPs, and other US avionics and weapons completely same with CCIP PO-III Program.

CCIP Program:

B30s will be subjected to "limited" upgrade i.e. no radar improvement and only for reliable OCU role. B40s and B50s will be "fully enhanced" and will be incorporated with some nationalized avionics and weapons.

Actually they are acquiring such large and lot of industrial capability when licensing production of F-16, starting from build the engine needed, structural airframe, wing, pylon and fuselage, avionic system, sensor pods and local missile system.

 

[san.geuk]

That's a very dangerous assumption to make, but I'm not going to get into it since it'll be a very long conversation.


To summarize, the reality is that we:

1. Have junior IP rights (meaning that the ROK can simply veto anything we do with it if they don't want us to do it).
2. No resell rights.
3. No access to developed technologies (especially the much needed software, electronic, and internal avionic systems).
4. No guarantee that we have local manufacturing rights.

(i) This is a similar scheme of the F-35 program, in that all the core technologies still belong to Lockheed Martin (and by extension the United States) DESPITE members of the international consortium contributing researchers and companies into the program. Thus any attempt to use those technologies without explicit permission by the IP owner (Lockheed Martin) would result in a veto by the United States Government.

Because of that, the only people from the JSF program who are continuing on their own indigenous 5th/6th gen programs are those who already HAVE experience in fighter development and manufacturing prior to the program, namely the United Kingdom and Turkey. It is HIGHLY unlikely that we would be able to continue work on our KFX's without South Korean help even after the initial development program ends.

PTDI would have learned a lot more in fighter development had they gone through the proper steps to build experience on manufacturing combat aircraft by starting off with licensed manufacturing of a COTS design, similar to how the ROK started off with the F-16 in the 1990's.

For example, PTDI could have taken up Airbus's offer during the initial F-5 replacement program and locally assemble/manufacture Typhoons, as well as integrate the electronic systems locally at its facilities in Bandung. Or if they didn't want to go with Airbus, they could have taken LM's offer and do more complex spare part manufacturing and avionic integration work for the F-16's.

(i) The most valuable skill that PTDI can learn is not airframe design, but rather integration and manufacturing of sensitive avionics and electronic components. All modern aerospace manufacturing have the capability to design airframes be it combat or transport, it is only a matter of research and development.

Instead, PTDI tried to run when they didn't even know how to crawl yet. We skipped the proper steps on indigenous fighter development and are now stuck in a bad deal. And a lot of people are clouded by blind nationalism that they don't realize that they are essentially in denial over the reality of the situation.

All this talk about how Korea needs PTDI and Indonesia is also false. The reality is that the Koreans are more than capable of funding and developing everything themselves (for example the radar and IRST system) and we are only still in the program simply because they don't want to harm relations with us.

The bitter truth that many people refuse to accept is that THEY. DON'T. NEED. US.

they dont need our money but still south korea need us to reduce research/production cost and to promote their kfx or i can say we are their the guinea pig

sorry if it sounds harsh

 

[Cromwell]

That's a very dangerous assumption to make, but I'm not going to get into it since it'll be a very long conversation.


To summarize, the reality is that we:

1. Have junior IP rights (meaning that the ROK can simply veto anything we do with it if they don't want us to do it).
2. No resell rights.
3. No access to developed technologies (especially the much needed software, electronic, and internal avionic systems).
4. No guarantee that we have local manufacturing rights.

(i) This is a similar scheme of the F-35 program, in that all the core technologies still belong to Lockheed Martin (and by extension the United States) DESPITE members of the international consortium contributing researchers and companies into the program. Thus any attempt to use those technologies without explicit permission by the IP owner (Lockheed Martin) would result in a veto by the United States Government.

Because of that, the only people from the JSF program who are continuing on their own indigenous 5th/6th gen programs are those who already HAVE experience in fighter development and manufacturing prior to the program, namely the United Kingdom and Turkey. It is HIGHLY unlikely that we would be able to continue work on our KFX's without South Korean help even after the initial development program ends.

PTDI would have learned a lot more in fighter development had they gone through the proper steps to build experience on manufacturing combat aircraft by starting off with licensed manufacturing of a COTS design, similar to how the ROK started off with the F-16 in the 1990's.

For example, PTDI could have taken up Airbus's offer during the initial F-5 replacement program and locally assemble/manufacture Typhoons, as well as integrate the electronic systems locally at its facilities in Bandung. Or if they didn't want to go with Airbus, they could have taken LM's offer and do more complex spare part manufacturing and avionic integration work for the F-16's.

(i) The most valuable skill that PTDI can learn is not airframe design, but rather integration and manufacturing of sensitive avionics and electronic components. All modern aerospace manufacturing have the capability to design airframes be it combat or transport, it is only a matter of research and development.

Instead, PTDI tried to run when they didn't even know how to crawl yet. We skipped the proper steps on indigenous fighter development and are now stuck in a bad deal. And a lot of people are clouded by blind nationalism that they don't realize that they are essentially in denial over the reality of the situation.

All this talk about how Korea needs PTDI and Indonesia is also false. The reality is that the Koreans are more than capable of funding and developing everything themselves (for example the radar and IRST system) and we are only still in the program simply because they don't want to harm relations with us.

The bitter truth that many people refuse to accept is that THEY. DON'T. NEED. US.

The reality is PT.DI doesn't have the capabillity to absorb the technology and in this KFX programme; South Korea has never been in need of us except for us being the market, it would've been more rationale if we partially local manufacture FA-50 instead. We missed that opportunity on Lockheed Martin F-16s, the 1st step to fighter jets science for PT.DI, we missed it untill the dawn of F-35 era. There are too many naive people here, living in their fantasy and fairy tale who has no idea the facts on field.

With that much amount of money for one country, I can only think 1-2 alutsista that will be procured

30 Billions US$ of those will come from France.

 

[Fl0gger]

kfx harus lanjut terlanjur basah ide nya bagus hanya saja deal nya memang kurang baik bukan jelek ya proyek ambisius ..?
ya tentu saja terlepas dr semua masalah tersebut memang harus di pikirkan juga recent need nya TNI khususnya TNI AU dan kenapa kfx bukan f 50 atau f 16 mungkin pemimpin bangsa kita berfikiran lebih ke depan "nanggung" ngembangin pswt gen 3.5 atau 4 the future is stealth...tapi memang industri kita belum mature progres ada dan di planingkan dan di kejar hanya saja saat ini belum dlm tahap tersebut tetapi setidak nya kita berani membuat pilihan dan usaha terlepas bagaimana hasil akhir yang di dapat nanti saya yakin sedikit banyak nya kita mendapat kan ilmu yang baik dlm pembangunan pswt terutama peswat tempur ingat ide pak habibie utk memiliki N.250 tak sedikit yang mencibir bahkan menghina proyek tersebut baik dr dalam atau pun luar negeri karena mereka melihat N.250 saat itu sebagai "ancaman " but eventualy N.250 ada dan semoga nasib ifx tidak berhenti seperti N.250 seperti yang kita khawatirkan bersama....regard

 

[Raduga]

The reality is PT.DI doesn't have the capabillity to absorb the technology and in this KFX programme; South Korea has never been in need of us except for us being the market, it would've been more rationale if we partially local manufacture FA-50 instead. We missed that opportunity on Lockheed Martin F-16s, the 1st step to fighter jets science for PT.DI, we missed it untill the dawn of F-35 era. There are too many naive people here, living in their fantasy and fairy tale who has no idea the facts on field.


30 Billions US$ of those will come from France.

The reality is PT.DI doesn't have the capabillity to absorb the technology and in this KFX programme; South Korea has never been in need of us except for us being the market, it would've been more rationale if we partially local manufacture FA-50 instead. We missed that opportunity on Lockheed Martin F-16s, the 1st step to fighter jets science for PT.DI, we missed it untill the dawn of F-35 era. There are too many naive people here, living in their fantasy and fairy tale who has no idea the facts on field.


30 Billions US$ of those will come from France.

So , the 48 rafale plan is not a bullsh*t afterall , let me guess the thing other than that , euroSAM and possible scorpene procurement ?

 

[Nike]

So , the 48 rafale plan is not a bullsh*t afterall , let me guess the thing other than that , euroSAM and possible scorpene procurement ?

30 billion us dollar is big number though, Rafale, Scorpene, Eurosam, Gowind class, anything else?

there is a lot of things to buy, starting from MRTT tanker, AWACS system, UAV, moar fighter like F-16V, MV-22 Osprey, Poseidon, ASW helicopter, utility helicopter, Heavy Helicopter, SPH, armor like tank, IFV, APC and so on. offset must be calculated, ToT and so on. Hope we can secure engine license deal, local production by inviting them to made manufacturing units or laboratory for sensor system and avionic system, even for helicopter engines and other utility type aircraft and built another companies/sub companies solely to handle helicopter production, fighter production and utility aircraft with separated production lines if Indonesian Aerospace industries to move on at another level. Securing MRO contracts and inviting users of the system to do maintenance in Indonesia, there is a lot of thing to do actually.

better is to inviting foreign manufacturing (by made them into non negative investment list) to invest production or assembly lines in Indonesia working with local manufacturer (preferably private industries), the look of PZL Mielec and Lockheed Martin facility or FNSS and BAE system colaboration should be encouraged here. The more Indonesian worker and engineer getting exposure from such technology the more we can gather resources and human pools to do our bidding in our National Projects actually.

info-graphic is only as an example

 

[initial_d]

30 Billion $ alone from france!!??
if it's long term soft loans That will be okay, if not it's gonna be a debt traps,
let's see with 30B$ we get 80 Rafale with spares and munition, 4 mistral LHD, Eurosam, 6 scorpene, 6-8 Horizon class frigates.....oh please don't wake me up from this wet dream

 

[Chestnut]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1286824035368595456

I heard $30 billion of them is for france.

You shouldn't say things like that without proof, the smallest rumors can be blown out of proportion within the context of Indonesian defense procurement.

30 Billion $ alone from france!!??
if it's long term soft loans That will be okay, if not it's gonna be a debt traps,
let's see with 30B$ we get 80 Rafale with spares and munition, 4 mistral LHD, Eurosam, 6 scorpene, 6-8 Horizon class frigates.....oh please don't wake me up from this wet dream

My previous point exactly.

 

[mejikuhibiu]

Most probably imported rifle, Islamic Kingdoms in Indonesia get supported by Ottoman Turkey who can make rifle. While Majapahit I believe use firearms from China. There is no recorded history that said Indonesia in the ancient time produce rifle.

Those story also just said Majapahit use firearm, not making it. Our ancestors did many trading from powerful nation like China as well. They can buy firearm (the most complex weapon at that time) from them.

Do you know why they dont make it ??? Most probably similar reasons of why you guys now prefer buying many F16 V and F35 than giving the money for KFX/IFX program, because it is due to unproven design and so on and so on, we dont have much time and we need to add more fighter bla bla bla.

Although by seeing our dispute with China in our North Natuna sea which is actually dispute in ZEE (not our territory), there is no one with good logical mind ever think that China will make a war with Indonesia over that small ZEE dispute and sacrifice huge trade surplus that China have from doing trading with us every year. Not to mention getting Indonesia to be with USA camp, their main enemy. CCP is not that stupid.

We dont have enough budget so better use it properly. We are projected to reach 3 trillion dollar GDP in 2034. Our defense budget will be quite huge by seeing how India can spend their military budget with GDP sligthly less than 3 trillion. There are still 14 years ahead. So we hope when we actually can be at that level inshaAllah, many of our weapon system are produced by ourselves, so it will bring more sustainability to our defense budget as it correlates more to our economy.

There is no valid evidence in history that ottoman help us with janisarries weapon or some relation with sultan in sumatra, or java..i have heard some opinion that ottoman cooperate with our sultanatte but it still not have valid evidence.. maybe in old time our sultan hear about how great is ottoman than they try to using it as a bargain to their people,ally even enemy.