Indonesia Defence Forum

[Indos]

No stealth technology has been given to Indonesia, not even Korea. Also, US rep often come to Korea to make sure no technology would be leaked to Indonesia. That stealth/Low observable radar design mostly come from US (Airframe wise) and thats the not being given as well.

C 109 design (final design) is derived from C 103 design which is developed by ADD Korea and PTDI, before KAI and Lockheed Martin comes to the project. Just dont make rumors, you need to back your statement with credible source.

The design has been tested in Indonesia as well.

 

[umigami]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1286824035368595456

I heard $30 billion of them is for france.

With that much amount of money for one country, I can only think 1-2 alutsista that will be procured

 

[Indos]

After reading some Indonesian members negative comment on KFX/IFX project, I just feel no wonder if our ancestors never try to make rifle although they have times for hundreds of years before Dutch came to our land

 

[initial_d]

After reading some Indonesian members negative comment on KFX/IFX project, I just feel no wonder if our ancestors never try to make rifle although they have times for hundreds of years before Dutch came to our land

lol, majapahit produce and use firearm on war from 13th century, read history please

 

[san.geuk]

I dont know with TOT but PTDI will absolutely get valuable design experience while working in KFX/IFX program. We will get blue print that will also be valuable if we want to make similar program in the future with Indonesia as senior partner. This is how we can make N 250 after JV with Cassa in CN 235 program. N 219 is also easier to be design after we get experience producing NC 212 under license.

About our contribution, dont trust fanboys opinion but rather listen to what people behind the program said. I still remember Indonesian Head engineer for KFX/IFX said that in the first time Korean dont believe with Indonesian engineers capability but as Indonesian engineers proves otherwise during the R&D and then Korean start to believe Indonesian engineers. He said that Max Take off ratio for example used Indonesian opinion and there was debate with Korean engineer at that time. It was stated in Angkasa if I am not mistaken. And it was before 2015.

We can see more information if we use Google, and there are more than 100 Indonesian engineers there and this is what we can get from Linkedin from just one engineer and he is quite young.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont want to show the name as it is related to my Linkedin connection.

My responsibility in KFX/IFX Program is about doing experimentation in the field of Aerodynamics especially Wind Tunnel & Water Tunnel Test.
What we do here are:
- Making accurate model for testing.
- Making data acquisition and data processing program for force & moment and pressure test.
- Preparing aerodynamics flow visualization test.
- Validating Test Result.

Starting June 2019, I have been assigned to Program Management Office at KFX/IFX Program to handle:
- Project Plan and Control of Aircraft Development Section at Program Integration Management.
- Industrial Liaison at Industrial Collaboration.

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More view from Anne Kusmayanti, Head of Ministry of Defense Reseach and the one who is responsible with KFX/IFX program.

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In making the prototype of the multi-fighter aircraft, according to Head of the Ministry of Defense's Research and Development Agency Anne Kusmayati, PTDI will make wings, boosters at the bottom of the wing and tail.

Work on KF-X / IF-X fighter jets will be centered in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, South Korea, the city which is the headquarters and main factory of Korea Aerospace Industries.

A total of 200 Indonesian engineers have gradually departed for Sacheon for one or two years. At first they will design the aircraft design. The engineers will also participate in designing all aircraft components.

Of the total workers of the two countries involved in the making of KF-X / IF-X, 30 percent are more from Indonesia and the majority of the rest are from South Korea. This is also the reason for making aircraft centered on Sacheon, not in Indonesia.

The proportion of more than 30 percent of Indonesian engineers involved in working on the KF-X / IF-X actually increased from the original amount of 20 percent. The addition of Indonesian workers occurred as time went by cultivation.

"It signifies that Indonesian engineers count on Korea. There is even a work package whose technology is only owned by Indonesians. He is a doctor from ITB (Bandung Institute of Technology), the only one who has inlight design capabilities. So Korea does not take Indonesia lightly, "Anne said.

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...ur-ri-buatan-sendiri-mengangkasa-9-tahun-lagi

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I have made long post about our design contribution and the post is a reply to you, dont you read it ??

There are reason of why KAI forbid PTDI to send inexperience engineers and only want 35 years old above. It is just revealed by our Defense Minister deputy in CNBC Indonesia.

Getting design experience and R&D in STEALTH fighter project is not cheap. We are lucky to only contribute 20 %. If we do it our selves, we will have to prepare 10 billion dollar like the cost of KFX/IFX program. By joining the project with Korea, either Indonesia and Korea will also get knowledge from each other. Korea has also designed T 50 with Lockheed Martin so we will get valuable insight as well from Korean engineers.

I dont know what you mean of core technology, people who oppose KFX fighters always say something like this, but of course PTDI is an airframe company, similar like Boeing and Airbuss, PTDI dont make AESA radar, IRST, and other avionics.

As I said if 4 core technologies are developed by Korea using KFX/IFX development cost, so I believe Indonesia who has invested in 20 % of the overall cost should get 20 %TOT and some workshare on the subsytems like AESA Radar, IRST, and others. But we cannot get technology from subsystem that are imported and not part of development cost.

Did you watch the history ? It is because Indonesia (Jokowi) try to renegotiate with ridiculous offer like paying the development cost through barter, decreasing contribution cost into 15 %, decreasing the fighter acquisition from 48 into 16, while not paying the cost since 2017.

Our relationship with South Korea has been jeopardized because of it.

@Indos
you mean the first quote above? yes i've read it but we still don't have access to the technology that's the rumours, and of course the subsistem not built by KAI itself but atleast they know how to or has ability to integrated the whole systems on a single airframe, not just integrating system that part of airframe management, my assumsion PT DI engeeners forbidden to gain access to integrate the whole systems needed, this make our administration unhappy about it, especially after in 2015 Airbus promising to assembly typhoon in our own soil and help indonesia achieve indigenous ability to build our own capability (aircraft)

https://www.airrecognition.com/inde...for-take-offq-theme-for-indodefence-2014.html

decreasing contribution cost into 15% and airframe aqusition it seems like our gov try renegotiation or make a "threat" to sokor for give us those access to integrate the whole system,

my stance is are we gonna spend 2 billion dollar, for untested aircraft and just for 1 prototype? that is lot of money, meanwhile there is urgent needed for mature and capable aircraft to compete our next adversary in north.

but this is just my speculation, perhaps similiar with others forumer thats againts KFX

 

[Nike]

With that much amount of money for one country, I can only think 1-2 alutsista that will be procured

If its American goods you Will get four to six Arleigh Burke class, around 72 F 15, 120 S70i blackhawk, 36 Apache and chance to get what you need EDA items including Abrams M1, M2 Bradley, Stryker, Humvee, MRAP, M109 howitzer and so on.

 

[initial_d]

If its American goods you Will get four to six Arleigh Burke class, around 72 F 15, 120 S70i blackhawk, 36 Apache and chance to get what you need EDA items including Abrams M1, M2 Bradley, Stryker, Humvee, MRAP, M109 howitzer and so on.

hhhmmm how about replacing Turkey on F-35 program, buy 120 F-35 and get the right to produce spares and component and future F-35 development for all the F-35 That will be produce on 40 years timeframe (more than 5000 unit)

 

[Nike]

After reading some Indonesian members negative comment on KFX/IFX project, I just feel no wonder if our ancestors never try to make rifle although they have times for hundreds of years before Dutch came to our land

Lol, Cetbang , Java Arquebus long been used in local wars especially in Java, how do you think Fatahillah getting rid of Portuguese in Sunda Kelapa even when using smaller Warships? By giving prayer?

"... wadya Majapahit ambedili, dene wadya Giri pada pating jengkelang ora kelar nadhahi tibaning mimis ..."

"... Majapahit troops shooting their firearms (bedil=firearm), while Giri troops fell dead because they couldn't withstand being pierced by bullets (mimis=ball bullet)..."

- Serat Darmagandhul

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

I'd rather trust the people from Wyoming than anyone from California.

Because a farmer from bumfuc Wyoming knows better about running the country than the more numerously educated californian it seems. Also this is one reason why people seldom vote. Imagine if indonesian this being apathetic towards democracy.

Why do I fear your YouTube & Twitter subs are filled with online culture warriors nonsense.

I hate the libs as much as you do but I don't go around spreading obvious propagandas.

 

[san.geuk]

hhhmmm how about replacing Turkey on F-35 program, buy 120 F-35 and get the right to produce spares and component and future F-35 development for all the F-35 That will be produce on 40 years timeframe (more than 5000 unit)

USAF will buy them 8+6 units planned dilevered in 2022-2023,
https://www.defensenews.com/air/202...rce will,a $862 million contract modification.

 

[initial_d]

USAF will buy them 8+6 units planned dilevered in 2022-2023,
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/07/20/its-official-us-air-force-to-buy-turkish-f-35s/#:~:text=The U.S. Air Force will,a $862 million contract modification.

no, what i meant is buying bulk quantity of F-35 (120 unit) and ask for turkish share on F-35, gaining technology and the right to supply sparepart and component to F-35 overal program for 40 year, that's not just fill our need for Figter jet but also technologies, industrial and economy in the long term

 

[san.geuk]

no, what i meant is buying bulk quantity of F-35 (120 unit) and ask for turkish share on F-35, gaining technology and the right to supply sparepart and component to F-35 overal program for 40 year, that's not just fill our need for Figter jet but also technologies, industrial and economy in the long term

oh i see, i'm just thinking about the procurement itself for urgent scenario, not the whole supply chain and manufaturing process,

you right in long term we should persue some key technology from the US that we have not gain from current cooperation in development of fighter aircraft

and alman says "Less likely it will get whole cabinet approval for execution." so better not expecting too high, unless take his words with a grain of salt

 

[Gundala]

C 109 design (final design) is derived from C 103 design which is developed by ADD Korea and PTDI, before KAI and Lockheed Martin comes to the project. Just dont make rumors, you need to back your statement with credible source.

The design has been tested in Indonesia as well.

Answer me this, the first block aim is to make RCS somewhere between 0.1-1.0 sqm. It will need composite material that absorb radar. Are we going to get it (the technology)? Its consider airframe technology for stealth fighter.

After reading some Indonesian members negative comment on KFX/IFX project, I just feel no wonder if our ancestors never try to make rifle although they have times for hundreds of years before Dutch came to our land

No, the reason is we dream too high, we dont do the reality check and ended up getting wet dream.

 

[Alex898]

No, the reason is we dream too high, we dont do the reality check and ended up getting wet dream.

as a cultured Indonesian boy, I think the sentences you're looking for is "lebih besar pasak daripada tiang". am I right ?
@Indos says from the KFX program we get the technological share, and enough knowledge to build our own stealth in the future. some other member says we dont. so which one is the truth, or are we all dancing with rumours ? as I remember, there's no official statement from government yet that stated what we would get from this program specifically (in details), besides the public knowledges that if we continue that we can build our own stealth fighter in the future (CMIIW). so far they always said we are renegotiating the terms.

 

[Indos]

Lol, Cetbang , Java Arquebus long been used in local wars especially in Java, how do you think Fatahillah getting rid of Portuguese in Sunda Kelapa even when using smaller Warships? By giving prayer?

"... wadya Majapahit ambedili, dene wadya Giri pada pating jengkelang ora kelar nadhahi tibaning mimis ..."

"... Majapahit troops shooting their firearms (bedil=firearm), while Giri troops fell dead because they couldn't withstand being pierced by bullets (mimis=ball bullet)..."

- Serat Darmagandhul

Most probably imported rifle, Islamic Kingdoms in Indonesia get supported by Ottoman Turkey who can make rifle. While Majapahit I believe use firearms from China. There is no recorded history that said Indonesia in the ancient time produce rifle.

Those story also just said Majapahit use firearm, not making it. Our ancestors did many trading from powerful nation like China as well. They can buy firearm (the most complex weapon at that time) from them.

Do you know why they dont make it ??? Most probably similar reasons of why you guys now prefer buying many F16 V and F35 than giving the money for KFX/IFX program, because it is due to unproven design and so on and so on, we dont have much time and we need to add more fighter bla bla bla.

Although by seeing our dispute with China in our North Natuna sea which is actually dispute in ZEE (not our territory), there is no one with good logical mind ever think that China will make a war with Indonesia over that small ZEE dispute and sacrifice huge trade surplus that China have from doing trading with us every year. Not to mention getting Indonesia to be with USA camp, their main enemy. CCP is not that stupid.

We dont have enough budget so better use it properly. We are projected to reach 3 trillion dollar GDP in 2034. Our defense budget will be quite huge by seeing how India can spend their military budget with GDP sligthly less than 3 trillion. There are still 14 years ahead. So we hope when we actually can be at that level inshaAllah, many of our weapon system are produced by ourselves, so it will bring more sustainability to our defense budget as it correlates more to our economy.