Indignesous SPARROW needed

[denel]

Pakistan definitely needs a SAM system to be used across the board. Between 10-20 km range. All three services could use such a system. Thanks to the OP for bringing up this requirement.

Foreign systems are expensive and have meant most PN ships, many ground units of PA remain without adequate AD. It is imperative a local solution is found, IMHO.

friend when there is no local know how where it come from?

 

[Tank131]

Well, beimg the single largest hole in PN is its air defense, i am taken aback that no plans or attemps to improve the overall status of F-22P's air defense capability is going to be undertaken.

While i dont believe that PNs solution lies in replicating Sparrows. However usong the launch box design on an adjustable amd rotatable platform is definitely am interesting idea. On the F-22P, if there is no possibility of placing a 16 or 24 cell Vls System, them PN should look into improving its survivability by changing tje missile. Replacing it with box launchers contain a naval variant of the FM-3000 (35KM) range SAM which can also engage cruise missiles. Its dimensions would likely allow 8 of them to be fit onto a launch box. If a 16 cell vls could be placed then the best solution would be a quad packed missile, but short of that, box loads with different missile may be the best option

 

[Armchair]

friend when there is no local know how where it come from?

My dear friend @denel its always a pleasure to read your opinions. I think there is know how in some areas. A SAM system, lets assume IR based would have the following major subsystems:

1. propulsion
2. guidance system
3. Explosive / proximity fuse
4. Launcher
5. Fire control radar / IRST

Pakistan has enough missile expertise for 1, 3, 4. Main issues are possibly 2 and 5.

The Spada 2000, when we read of it back then, came with TOT. There are also other off-the-shelf solutions one could outsource. This means 5 is taken care of.
Issue then becomes 2. Again, it could be outsourced. Pakistan has little to no experience developing an IR seeker although it has experience with the control mechanisms of guidance. Can this be outsourced? Could Denel or Mekatron be possible sources? Aselsan has a solution.

Basically such a program would be a systems integration project. If you can integrated these subsystems effectively, you can have a reasonable SAM system. At a very reasonable price.

BTW there was a report not too long ago that PN has asked the R&D establishment to work on an IR SAM. If someone remembers it. I will try to dig it up.

Either it will be expensive and fully modern, or older but cheaper and a place to start from.
OK then go for a newer design like the CAMM missile; lighter and more modern in terms of maneuverability, seekers, rocket motor....all of this started as an air to air missile. If we buy the rights to or are allowed to produce under license the A-Darter and Umkhonto missiles from South Africa for example; and keep improving it we can form a modern, high quality foundation from which to expand.

BTW here is an earlier thread where this issue came up, but just in terms of acquisition, not license production or copying. Bilal Khan from Quwa thinks it would only take 20-30 million to retro-fit a F-22P. I think starting with a deal for equipping the Ada corvettes and F-22P frigates with these South African missiles through some kind of collaborative R&D deal including ToT may be the way to go. The South Africans through their Marlin Program plan to have a 60 km range Umkhonto Extended Range as their final development goal. This fits in nicely with what you have been saying, and in terms of cost to reliability ratio; they are nearly western level reliable for bargain prices.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...da-class-corvettes-with-turkey.479495/page-31

Any Thoughts?

Hi Future PAF,

Thanks for your thoughts and interesting discourse. Pakistan does not have access to CAMM and very likely will be unable to replicate it. You need seriously good R&D to develop something like that. While some parts of Pakistani R&D is good, there are whole departments and projects that are highly unprofessional and just eating out their government jobs.

Umkhonto costs 30 million per system (I think). And can barely be called a medium SAM. PN has shown interest in the system but nothing came of it.

I really don't think its wise to try to retrofit F-22P. Not at this point. The F-22P has quality issues and is an old design. In many ways it is not upgradable. Its good as it is. FL-3000N would have been nice. I remember @Bilal Khan (Quwa) suggesting that at some point. However, perhaps PN feels its better to invest the meagre available resources on new ships that can be properly upgraded, are new designs and that have a future.

The F-22P is good for the role it was bought - ASW. Its an ASW frigate. It will mainly operate within the umbrella of PAF, near the Pakistani coast. It is far wiser to invest the money in a proper AAW frigate. Which is what PN is doing with the Type 54A mod. The only issue is negotiations are taking place regarding certain customizations to it.

The LY-80 is a good system and will provide a 70 km radius umbrella for PN strike formations. Would you rather these are not bought and F-22Ps are modified with Umkhonto missiles, only a handful of which would fit the ship to begin with? A very old design ship that is not even properly automated?

Does the F-22P even have the radar capability to effectively target incoming Brahmos missiles at range? If not, does PN need to invest in giant sums of money to upgrade the radars onboard?

Just some thoughts on my part. cheers.

 

[FuturePAF]

My dear friend @denel its always a pleasure to read your opinions. I think there is know how in some areas. A SAM system, lets assume IR based would have the following major subsystems:

1. propulsion
2. guidance system
3. Explosive / proximity fuse
4. Launcher
5. Fire control radar / IRST

Pakistan has enough missile expertise for 1, 3, 4. Main issues are possibly 2 and 5.

The Spada 2000, when we read of it back then, came with TOT. There are also other off-the-shelf solutions one could outsource. This means 5 is taken care of.
Issue then becomes 2. Again, it could be outsourced. Pakistan has little to no experience developing an IR seeker although it has experience with the control mechanisms of guidance. Can this be outsourced? Could Denel or Mekatron be possible sources? Aselsan has a solution.

Basically such a program would be a systems integration project. If you can integrated these subsystems effectively, you can have a reasonable SAM system. At a very reasonable price.

BTW there was a report not too long ago that PN has asked the R&D establishment to work on an IR SAM. If someone remembers it. I will try to dig it up.



Hi Future PAF,

Thanks for your thoughts and interesting discourse. Pakistan does not have access to CAMM and very likely will be unable to replicate it. You need seriously good R&D to develop something like that. While some parts of Pakistani R&D is good, there are whole departments and projects that are highly unprofessional and just eating out their government jobs.

Umkhonto costs 30 million per system (I think). And can barely be called a medium SAM. PN has shown interest in the system but nothing came of it.

I really don't think its wise to try to retrofit F-22P. Not at this point. The F-22P has quality issues and is an old design. In many ways it is not upgradable. Its good as it is. FL-3000N would have been nice. I remember @Bilal Khan (Quwa) suggesting that at some point. However, perhaps PN feels its better to invest the meagre available resources on new ships that can be properly upgraded, are new designs and that have a future.

The F-22P is good for the role it was bought - ASW. Its an ASW frigate. It will mainly operate within the umbrella of PAF, near the Pakistani coast. It is far wiser to invest the money in a proper AAW frigate. Which is what PN is doing with the Type 54A mod. The only issue is negotiations are taking place regarding certain customizations to it.

The LY-80 is a good system and will provide a 70 km radius umbrella for PN strike formations. Would you rather these are not bought and F-22Ps are modified with Umkhonto missiles, only a handful of which would fit the ship to begin with? A very old design ship that is not even properly automated?

Does the F-22P even have the radar capability to effectively target incoming Brahmos missiles at range? If not, does PN need to invest in giant sums of money to upgrade the radars onboard?

Just some thoughts on my part. cheers.

The F-22P were a stop gap at $175 million to field ships when we desperately needed to retire the Type 21s. At the very least if they are to operate as large coastal ASW Platforms they need to be able to defend against anti-ship cruise missiles those submarines may fire at them. the Algerians upgraded their Meko200 frigates each with 32 vls cells with the Umkhonto for a total of $61 Million; IF we have 16 cells per F-22P; Not replacing the FM-90s but placed where the Yagi Radar is we can get the same system for the same price but adjusted for inflation. that is a $30 million dollar upgrade per ship for 16 vls cells with a decent 25-35 km missile to defend against Klub missiles. the other thing is a decent radar at the minimum (if not a modest integrated mast to have 360 continuous surveillance) is badly needed. i'm not sure what a Smart S Mk. 2 cost but that is a decent system to pick it already is on the algerian C-28a ships (a F-22P derivative design).

lets say at the end of it the refits/upgrades of the four ships comes in at $150-200 Million. Yes we could spend the money on newer vessels and not upgrade the vessels we have, but in the end we still have to field these F-22P ships in the ASW mission. the PAF and PN ASW Air Fleet can't be available continuously to defnd the ships against air and missile attack. Also these ships cost $175 million (a large sum to replace if lost), a $40-50 Million upgrade each to defend them is offsetting the costs of changing strategies when these ships are all you have in a sector and it detects an enemy submarine.

The newer Type 054A class frigates are also a need, don't get me wrong. I would definitely want a Type 54A over a F-22P, but we already have F-22P and upgrading them to get the most of out a current platform that just started its service life will fill the point defense AAW gaps needed to protect the smaller ships (like Azmat class FAC) , when the limited number of Type 54A are operating else where.

Also you stated we want to start developing a modern system indigenously, and the South Africans are stuck because of lack of funds. This is what you call a buyers market. we can negotiate a large transfer of technology, and technology sharing. As for who should do this, it should be a private company venture. That way they can fire non-productive workers and spend their resources on gaining experience and expertise.
------------
If the goal is Indigenous production, then lets start with copying systems we already have (like the Spada 2000) to gain the experience. Get a great team of the best scientists in each department, a modest budget, and copy the Five things you pointed out (propulsion, guidance system, Explosive / proximity fuse, Launcher, and Fire control radar / IRST). Test it against the original, and once it matches it, start fielding it.

Move on with the same team to more and more challenging designs, and eventually once you have decent sub-system components, start doing in house research to develop your own systems to meet your needs.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The F-22P is good for the role it was bought - ASW. Its an ASW frigate. It will mainly operate within the umbrella of PAF, near the Pakistani coast. It is far wiser to invest the money in a proper AAW frigate. Which is what PN is doing with the Type 54A mod. The only issue is negotiations are taking place regarding certain customizations to it.

F-22p is not a dedicated ASW platform.To be an effective platform in shallow waters of arabian sea you need an active towed array sonar which it lacks.
It also doesn't have anti torpedo decoys or passive countermeasures.
Its an affordable multipurpose frigate to fill numbers.

 

[khanasifm]

F-22p punch according to its commanding officer

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-22p-and-053-series.t3886/page-10

I dare say that a Sword-class unit packs almost the combined fire-power of our six Tariq-class (Ex-UK RN Amazon-class (Type-21)) frigates. We feature quite a few capabilities not found on the pther Pakistani frigates".

He anticipates forthcoming modernization will ...

 

[Tank131]

While all that is true, some od what @Armchair says is true, the F-22P is a dated design which may mot be worth dropping $50 million per unit to upgrade. With that said, i do think some upgrade (for pure survival is warranted (like better sensors and SAMs).

Options:
1. You could consider replacing type 730 ciws with AK630 (which has a smaller footprint) and moving the CIWS to just behind the smokestacks. Above the hangar you place a 21cell FL-3000N.

2. If 1 isnt doable replace both ciws with a single 21 cell FL-3000N.

3. Add 6 HQ-10/FL-3000N missiles to each CIWS (For a total of 12 extra point defense missiles).

4. Exchanging the FM90 for a navalized variant of FM-3000 gives you 8 missiles (in box like LY-60 ON Amazons) with 35km range (capable of engaging cruise missiles) with any of the above.

Exchange the long range radar of this ship for Smart S MK2 or a LY-80N radar.

The cost for any of these would be significantly less than the $30M+ it would take to retrofit Umkhonto and a vls (if that is possible), amd would dramatically improve the survivability of the vessels. That beimg said i still prefer a vls which would replace the FM90 And the deck it sits on. It may resemble a partially above deck system like what you see on Sa'ar 5 or british type 23 amd equipped with Umkhonto-ir-er or preferably a quad packed missile like k-sam...but that may not be financially worth it or technically feasible whereas the above suggestions are both.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

IMHO and with little bit of study of Naval Power, Pak Navy's role is defensive and keeping its SLOC open during a conflict with India. Its strike element is its submarine force and Aviation Arm and not its surface fleet!

Adding a AAW frigate with strong AShM is at the most extending the Air Defense umbrella a little bit further into the ocean to guard its SLOC.... again essentially, a defensive role for the surface fleet.

I for one do not see PN going beyond acquiring two heavy AAW Frigates around which it can build two flotillas with a mix of one AAW and possibly two ASW frigates with a heavy AShM punch. Two ASW Frigates are a min. must for an effective ASW patrol and hunting (but I have serious doubts about F22P and its ASW capability with light weight torps. and its Sonar. Maybe, the next round of purchase from either Turkey or China will beef up this area.). This dove tails with two Fleet Replenishment Platforms operated by PN (I believe very soon, work on the second ship of the Turkish Fleet Tanker will be started).

One of the Patrol groups will be, in my opinion, stationed off the coast of Southern part of Oman in the event hostilities and the other will be somewhere off the coast of Gawader. Gawader becoming the primary port of entry for both oil and dry cargo very soon and will be used as such in the event of hostilities breaking out between India and Pakistan. Ideally there should be three patrol groups one should be based near Socotra and the other somewhere off the coast of Al Wusta province of Oman. The north most group should be positioned east of Gawader and its patrol area should be the approaches to the straits of Hurmuz. This way search and seizure of India bound vessels can be carried out (However, If China openly sides with Pakistan than the Djibouti can be used to mount patrols by Chinese Navy and free up PN units to concentrate more towards the coast mid of Oman and Hurmuz) This strategy would require a home port for the southern most group (That will be provided by I guess Djibouti.. the Chinese Base their). PN has now pretty long experience of navigating/patrolling these waters for anti piracy patrols. however such a strategy will dictate three AAW frigates and atleast four more ASW/AShM frigates.

The COMSUB would most certainly use its hunter killers in a patrol arc starting about 100 KM off the coast of Runn of Kutch and ending somewhere west of Karachi but between Ormara and KHI.

The LRP and Early Warning will be provided, in this area, by Orions and Karakoram Eagles and Deep Strike by the Naval Strike element out of Masroor.

LRP/Strike will be provided again by Orions and KE's out of Turbat in the West. Point air defense and CAP will be provided by PAF planes out of Pasni. But this needs to be beefed up as currently the PAF base over there can only handle eight fighter a/c to cover Ormara and Gawader (Pasni is situated about midway between Gawader and Ormara).

Close in Littoral defense will be the responsibility of various of corvettes and Fast Attack Missile boats being added to PN fleet. The pivot points for this defense would be the three ports of PQA, KHI & Gawader. Ormara would defend its self from air and sea attack by on Land AA/SAM assets and shore based AsHM if need be. The high powered surveillance radar at both Hawakes Bay and Ormara give a panoramic view of the approaches to both KHI (Main Naval Base) and Ormara (Right now the secondary Naval Facility)

The strategic punch will remain with atleast two Chinese built Subs out of the eight being acquired, armed with nuclear tipped cruise missiles. By the end of the program of inducting eight subs, PN will have 11 subs (INMHO 12 are the min. required but that is my opinion). Which will be sufficient to mount and effective aggressor patrols far out into and beyond our EEZ. ACNS NSFC will have direct command over the use of the two nuclear armed subs through COMSUB PN.

I also believe that PN is looking for an effective deep strike Air Element to counter the IN Carrier Group. Also lacking is a coherent and credible Air defense of the coastal belt West of Karachi. PAF has neglected this area and i do not see any activity on ground to beef up this gap. in total there are not more than a dozen hardened pens in the entire Markran Coastal Belt!! In past wargames conducted at the War College, SU-30 long range and the threat of its use from the western approaches was a real headache. This was validated in a number of simulations played over many courses at the War College. I am not divulging a military secret here. It is a known fact and was played out even where foreign course participants/officers were part of the simulations.

I acknowledge that there are definite holes in the above scenario. But the general deployment would be simillar to what I surmise above.

My 2C's worth. Please feel free to shoot holes in it!!

 

[Armchair]

IMHO and with little bit of study of Naval Power, Pak Navy's role is defensive and keeping its SLOC open during a conflict with India. Its strike element is its submarine force and Aviation Arm and not its surface fleet!

Adding a AAW frigate with strong AsHM is at the most extending the Air Defense umbrella a little bit further into the ocean to guard its SLOC.... again essentially, a defensive role for the surface fleet.

I for one do not see PN going beyond acquiring two heavy AAW Frigates around which it can build two flotillas with a mix of one AAW and possibly two ASW frigates with a heavy AsHM punch. Two ASW Frigates are a min. must for an effective ASW patrol and hunting (but I have serious doubts about F22P and its ASW capability with light weight torps. and its Sonar. Maybe, the next round of purchase from either Turkey or China will beef up this area.). This dove tails with two Fleet Replenishment Platforms operated by PN (I believe very soon, work on the second ship of the Turkish Fleet Tanker will be started).

One of the Patrol groups will be, in my opinion, stationed off the coast of Southern part of Oman in the event hostilities and the other will be somewhere off the coast of Gawader. Gawader becoming the primary port of entry for both oil and dry cargo very soon and will be used as such in the event of hostilities breaking out between India and Pakistan. Ideally there should be three patrol groups one should be based near Socotra and the other somewhere off the coast of Al Wusta province of Oman. The north most group should be positioned east of Gawader and its patrol area should be the approaches to the straits of Hurmuz. This way search and seizure of India bound vessels can be carried out (However, If China openly sides with Pakistan than the Djibouti can be used to mount patrols by Chinese Navy and free up PN units to concentrate more towards the coast mid of Oman and Hurmuz) This strategy would require a home port for the southern most group (That will be provided by I guess Djibouti.. the Chinese Base their). PN has now pretty long experience of navigating/patrolling these waters for anti piracy patrols. however such a strategy will dictate three AAW frigates and atleast four more ASW/AsHM frigates.

The COMSUB would most certainly use its hunter killers in a patrol arc starting about 100 KM off the coast of Runn of Kutch and ending somewhere west of Karachi but between Ormara and KHI.

The LRP and Early Warning will be provided, in this area, by Orions and Karakoram Eagles and Deep Strike by the Naval Strike element out of Masroor.

LRP/Strike will be provided again by Orions and KE's out of Turbat in the West. Point air defense and CAP will be provided by PAF planes out of Pasni. But this needs to be beefed up as currently the PAF base over there can only handle eight fighter a/c to cover Ormara and Gawader (Pasni is situated about midway between Gawader and Ormara).

Close in Littoral defense will be the responsibility of various of corvettes and Fast Attack Missile boats being added to PN fleet. The pivot points for this defense would be the three ports of PQA, KHI & Gawader. Ormara would defend its self from air and sea attack by on Land AA/SAM assets and shore based AsHM if need be. The high powered surveillance radar at both Hawakes Bay and Ormara give a panoramic view of the approaches to both KHI (Main Naval Base) and Ormara (Right now the secondary Naval Facility)

The strategic punch will remain with atleast two Chinese built Subs out of the eight being acquired, armed with nuclear tipped cruise missiles. By the end of the program of inducting eight subs, PN will have 11 subs (INMHO 12 are the min. required but that is my opinion). Which will be sufficient to mount and effective aggressor patrols far out into and beyond our EEZ. ACNS NSFC will have direct command over the use of the two nuclear armed subs through COMSUB PN.

I also believe that PN is looking for an effective deep strike Air Element to counter the IN Carrier Group. Also lacking is a coherent and credible Air defense of the coastal belt West of Karachi. PAF has neglected this area and i do not see any activity on ground to beef up this gap. in total there are not more than a dozen hardened pens in the entire Markran Coastal Belt!! In past wargames conducted at the War College, SU-30 long range and the threat of its use from the western approaches was a real headache. This was validated in a number of simulations played over many courses at the War College. I am not divulging a military secret here. It is a known fact and was played out even where foreign course participants/officers were part of the simulations.

I acknowledge that there are definite holes in the above scenario. But the general deployment would be simillar to what I surmise above.

My 2C's worth. Please feel free to shoot holes in it!!

hi Amir, very nice writeup. I'm wondering, what would you say to having small submarines to attack Indian bases and ports such as Dwarka and Mumbai? You could have a small 500 ton submarine that has 4x torpedoes, 4x mines and a UUV which itself is armed with 2x torpedoes and 2x mines. You could send the UUV right into the port kamikazi style. If India feels that its coast can be attacked, it would shift a lot more assets to defensive roles rather than offensive ones. What are your thoughts?

Also, what are your thoughts on the lack of credible PDS sams in PN ships?

Finally, I know you mean the FLANKER series, but what else could PN use? How about JH-7s / J-20s / Tornadoes / ...

 

[Aamir Hussain]

hi Amir, very nice writeup. I'm wondering, what would you say to having small submarines to attack Indian bases and ports such as Dwarka and Mumbai? You could have a small 500 ton submarine that has 4x torpedoes, 4x mines and a UUV which itself is armed with 2x torpedoes and 2x mines. You could send the UUV right into the port kamikazi style. If India feels that its coast can be attacked, it would shift a lot more assets to defensive roles rather than offensive ones. What are your thoughts?

Also, what are your thoughts on the lack of credible PDS sams in PN ships?

Finally, I know you mean the FLANKER series, but what else could PN use? How about JH-7s / J-20s / Tornadoes / ...

Yes that is a possibility to tie down enemy naval assets and disrupt port operations by use of midget subs. But due to limited range of these subs...targets will be limited to few Western ports. However IN in previous conflicts moved it major assets out of its western ports to its eastern ports. Possibly out of range of PN's surface combatants.

 

[Armchair]

Yes that is a possibility to tie down enemy naval assets and disrupt port operations by use of midget subs. But due to limited range of these subs...targets will be limited to few Western ports. However IN in previous conflicts moved it major assets out of its western ports to its eastern ports. Possibly out of range of PN's surface combatants.

Thanks, that is a very interesting insight. Would it still be worth attacking the shipping in Dwarka / Mumbai / etc? They do need to defend Mumbai as much as PN needs to defend Karachi.. (??)

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thanks, that is a very interesting insight. Would it still be worth attacking the shipping in Dwarka / Mumbai / etc? They do need to defend Mumbai as much as PN needs to defend Karachi.. (??)

Yes it can be done but it would be at extreme ranges without margin for error.

Couple of mines surfacing near a major port will create a scare no doubt.

 

[Gryphon]

@Armchair

Hi,

You have repeatedly mentioned that naval Korkut is the solution against supersonic AShM's and not the 'obsolete' Phalanx. Both happen to be gun platforms with the latter employing a gatling autocannon.

How will naval Korkut prove to be a better option knowing that the flying debris will still hit the ship when the supersonic missile is intercepted at 3 or 4 km?

 

[Armchair]

@Armchair

Hi,

You have repeatedly mentioned that naval Korkut is the solution against supersonic AShM's and not the 'obsolete' Phalanx. Both happen to be gun platforms with the latter employing a gatling autocannon.

How will naval Korkut prove to be a better option knowing that the flying debris will still hit the ship when the supersonic missile is intercepted at 3 or 4 km?

Hi Gryphon, I always find your contribution interesting and valuable.
Phalanx has a 20mm gun. Korkut has almost double that caliber. This means:

1. Phalanx will engage a target much closer to the ship, while Korkut will be able to deal with it at greater range.
2. That the weight of the rounds and power of the rounds would be much greater for Korkut than Phalanx.

This is the reason that multiple countries, including the UK have sought higher caliber CIWS (the whole debris issue as you put it). The UK developed the 30mm Goalkeeper for instance. Korkut has an even greater caliber (35mm). With modern tracking, it would significantly outrange any past system.

All meaning much less chance of debris flying into the ship. I hope that clarifies the issue.

Addendum:

Brahmos has two issues, IMHO - speed and mass. Together, they represent a giant amount of kinetic force and momentum. This means they need to be intercepted at greater range and with a greater mass of ammunition.

 

[Mahmood-ur-Rehman]

Small stealth boats in trio dedicated for one role only one boat for air defense other for anti ship still other boat for anti submarine role