Indignesous SPARROW needed

[FuturePAF]

A good cost effective and compact system for the smaller ships like the Azmat Class FAC would be the New Russian Naval Pantsyr; a development on the new Ground based system will eventually lead to a naval variant. here is a decent review. (max range 20 km; but at its max range its not as maneuverable as the turkish systems below)

for a longer range system; but still shorter ranged and smaller than the ly-80 would be the turkish Hisar-A (16 km) and Hisar-O (25 km) systems; agile systems with dual seekers (IR and RF in each missile); good for defending against terminal maneuvering enemy missiles

for area air defense if Pakistan procures something like the Planned Type 57 Frigate with room enough for a mix of Ly-80 (60-70 km) and the latest HQ-9 Variants (200km); read under variants and see the Chinese have some modern air defense missiles that can fit in HQ-9 tubes; such as the HQ-26 and HQ-29; very impressive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-9#Variants

expanding the front and rear Missile Decks to house 24-32 LY-80 and 16 HQ-9 VLS Tubes would make the Type 057 AAW Frigate a Potent ship that would fit the needs of the PN well into the future. or the Chinese can design a mini Type 052D; full large radar to ensure detection as early as possible. Similar to the how the Australians have their AAW Frigate (Hobart Class); a mini Aegis destroyer; full capabilities but the right size to fit their needs.

a good design for a scaled down Type 052D fitted on an enlarged Type 054 design would be the French Freda Class design based on a similar design that inspired the Type 054

 

[Armchair]

Pakistan definitely needs a SAM system to be used across the board. Between 10-20 km range. All three services could use such a system. Thanks to the OP for bringing up this requirement.

Foreign systems are expensive and have meant most PN ships, many ground units of PA remain without adequate AD. It is imperative a local solution is found, IMHO.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan definitely needs a SAM system to be used across the board. Between 10-20 km range. All three services could use such a system. Thanks to the OP for bringing up this requirement.

Foreign systems are expensive and have meant most PN ships, many ground units of PA remain without adequate AD. It is imperative a local solution is found, IMHO.

If Pakistan has a large enough requirement for many of these systems like the 10-20 km range Pantsyr; I'm Sure Chinese would develop their own matching version for Pakistan. they will have in ready in under 3 years and fielded on any ship you want. Pay them a little extra and have them split the work into a joint partnership; with 50-50 intellectual property and right to export share. once the system is developed; shift to being able to manufacture totally in Pakistan; and there you have it fully indigenous with transfer of technology and training of engineers to make a system such as this.

btw here is the latest pantsyr naval variant

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ew-pantsir-me-naval-close-in-defensive-system

http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70&w=1440&url=https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/ajjadjaj1.jpg?quality=85

 

[Armchair]

If Pakistan has a large enough requirement for many of these systems like the 10-20 km range Pantsyr; I'm Sure Chinese would develop their own matching version for Pakistan. they will have in ready in under 3 years and fielded on any ship you want. Pay them a little extra and have them split the work into a joint partnership; with 50-50 intellectual property and right to export share. once the system is developed; shift to being able to manufacture totally in Pakistan; and there you have it fully indigenous with transfer of technology and training of engineers to make a system such as this.

btw here is the latest pantsyr naval variant

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ew-pantsir-me-naval-close-in-defensive-system

http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70&w=1440&url=https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/ajjadjaj1.jpg?quality=85

Hi, its not that simple. Otherwise every country would pay the Chinese to develop something for them.

FIrstly, the quality of Chinese systems is low.

Secondly, if you want to something you can just buy it from them.

Its about developing a quality system at a reasonable price in-house.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi, its not that simple. Otherwise every country would pay the Chinese to develop something for them.

FIrstly, the quality of Chinese systems is low.

Secondly, if you want to something you can just buy it from them.

Its about developing a quality system at a reasonable price in-house.

Fair Point;
the first step would be making a copy of an existing system which our industries already are capable; the anza missile system for example

this is basically where Roketsan of turkey started 30 years ago with the stinger missile
http://www.roketsan.com.tr/en/kurumsal/

"By the completion of the missile design infrastructure development project in 1995 which had been started in 1992, for the purpose of training competent personnel necessary for designing rockets and missiles as well as developing design tools, “design focused” era began for Roketsan."

this would be the company to study; they are already making the Hisar series. we just need to look at their company's developmental roadmap ; see where we are lacking and start a program to make a system tailor made to our needs; knowing full well the systems and threats currently in the market.

we should also reserve engineer some current air defense missiles in the design parameters we want to achieve to learn what elements work and don't for us. everyone starts off this way.

 

[Syed1.]

MS Paint is a powerful tool.

People missed this gem

 

[FuturePAF]

People missed this gem

MS Paint is works to illustrate the point; its about the idea not the refinement
btw; here is the FREDA Type 054 Design i'm talking about
(16 HQ-9 VLS and 32 LY-80 Missile)

https://imgur.com/tHlwcPh

Here is the orginial
http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/3f/6cdd8a2039f2cbe9f1fccdec5abbf83f.jpg

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

It was not missed but that is the future for Pakistan Navy, Believe That

People missed this gem

It is easy to see with arrival for various small boat platform
and talk of Milgem or Istambul Frigates plus Chinese BIG ships

This can be a reality if we can purchase a Sparrow like launcher systems with help from

a) Turkey
b) Italy
c) China
d) Russia (Pantsir System???)

It would be logical move I think after H.E.R.B.A , Z.A.R.B , Ababeel Projects have concluded successfully

• Turkish (Milgem or Istambul is 95% confirmed)
• Chinese (Big SHIP 95% confirmed)

 

[Armchair]

My speculation is that there is already a system being developed inhouse.

Regarding the milgems,

Korkut would be an ideal counter to Brahmos which made Phalanx outdated on PN ships.

Hisar A could really give a low cost and meaningful AD solution for Ada class corvettes for PN.

 

[FuturePAF]

My speculation is that there is already a system being developed inhouse.

Regarding the milgems,

Korkut would be an ideal counter to Brahmos which made Phalanx outdated on PN ships.

Hisar A could really give a low cost and meaningful AD solution for Ada class corvettes for PN.

Hisar A and Hisar O could also fit on the F-22P if the FM-90 is removed.
If the Foredeck is extended and the Yagi radar is removed behind the Exhaust Funnel; these two locations could hold 16 VLS Tubes each; for total of 32 Agile Modern Point Defense missiles.
Also the Radar will need to be replaced with an integrated mast to allow continuous 360 degree coverage in different radar bands as well as EO/IR.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da_YghGUwAAVyiO.jpg:large

ALSO the PN should look into upgrading the current F-22P ships (as much as possible) into the design above and look to actually procuring 4 AAW Frigates/Destroyers for modern air defense bubble out to the max range of potential threats like Brahmos and their launch platforms.

https://defesaglobal.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/dcns-fremm-er_vue-de-face-bdcns.jpg

 

[Armchair]

Hisar A and Hisar O could also fit on the F-22P if the FM-90 is removed.
If the Foredeck is extended and the Yagi radar is removed behind the Exhaust Funnel; these two locations could hold 16 VLS Tubes each; for total of 32 Agile Modern Point Defense missiles.
Also the Radar will need to be replaced with an integrated mast to allow continuous 360 degree coverage in different radar bands as well as EO/IR.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da_YghGUwAAVyiO.jpg:large

ALSO the PN should look into upgrading the current F-22P ships (as much as possible) into the design above and look to actually procuring 4 AAW Frigates/Destroyers for modern air defense bubble out to the max range of potential threats like Brahmos and their launch platforms.

https://defesaglobal.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/dcns-fremm-er_vue-de-face-bdcns.jpg

Hi FuturePAF,

Interesting thoughts. However:

1. Its not effective use of funds to buy expensive gear and then replace them with even more expensive gear, at a time when numbers are so few. Maybe its better use of funds to invest instead in more ships with new gear, while keeping the ships that are still not outdated. PN has yet to even replace Type 21s, so its premature to talk about F-22P upgrade or replacement.

2. Hisar O is not a ready product. Its still in development. Even Hisar A is yet to demonstrate a naval variant.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that the PN's Ada class would have the Korkut installed in them. They are ideally suited to counter the Brahmos.

PN is going for four 54As, perhaps that is the AAW you are wanting...

 

[Chimgathar]

Panrsir-M air-defence system on Russian navy project 22800 small missle ship (corvette) "Shkval". Check size of the ship.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi FuturePAF,

Interesting thoughts. However:

1. Its not effective use of funds to buy expensive gear and then replace them with even more expensive gear, at a time when numbers are so few. Maybe its better use of funds to invest instead in more ships with new gear, while keeping the ships that are still not outdated. PN has yet to even replace Type 21s, so its premature to talk about F-22P upgrade or replacement.

2. Hisar O is not a ready product. Its still in development. Even Hisar A is yet to demonstrate a naval variant.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that the PN's Ada class would have the Korkut installed in them. They are ideally suited to counter the Brahmos.

PN is going for four 54As, perhaps that is the AAW you are wanting...

Hi Armchair,

You have made some fair points. I have looked up the specifications of the FM-90 (max range 15 km); considering we operate these missiles at sea and on land in large numbers, we should focus on this missile and see how we can make an indigenous variant and upgrade the design as much as possible.

The Crotale NG VT1 Mk.3 Missile (latest model) has the same max range, but can maneuver up to 35Gs an even 50Gs in trying to intercept a target, with a top speed of Mach 3.5. Various radar and other sensor upgrades have improve the capability of this system and it is being fielded by the South Koreans.
https://www.army-technology.com/projects/crotale/

our current system; which may already have most of the features, just needs EO/IR Sensor and Radar on the actual missile carrying vehicle
http://defense-update.com/20150511_...oved-shorad-missiles-acquired-from-china.html

and the NG newer model
https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/09/crotale3.jpg

Upgrading the Radar mast with an integrated mast; and using a single modern Multi-beam radar on top to guide the missiles is a minimum to keep up. with all the detection features in the new mast; we replace the Yagi Radar with another FM-90 launcher (this time with room for a reloading section underneath) and upgrade the type 630 ciws to type 730 ciws.

this would save costs, give out shipyards experience and a project to work on whicle they ramp up for a larger frigate program, and stay effective in the modern age.

Also we should not go for a simple type 054A frigate in large numbers, or even the Type 57 frigate/4000 Ton frigate designed; but something a little bigger.
something like the Hobart Class of Australia or Fremm-ER (Freda) Class of France which they are currently starting to build as a decent AAW Frigate/Destroyer to fill our top tier requirement. if we spend on stop gap measures when it is possible to get something a lot better for not much money, we will be pigeon holing ourselves into a brown water corner.

VT-1 Mk.3 Missile; relatively cheaper missile with modern capabilities
An Indigenous company could start by copying the VT-1 Mk.3, Then work on developing different seeker heads, different motors to maximize performance (such as dual pulse motors), and Thrust vectoring control surfaces if not already there to maximize agility of the missile. This missile can be a starting point for the Pakistani Defense industry to build on.

Here is a good read about the current FM-90 system
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-HQ-7-Crotale.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/Zhuhai-2010/FM-90-Crotale-Missile-APA-1S.jpg
http://www.ausairpower.net/Zhuhai-2010/FM-90-Crotale-Missile-APA-2S.jpg

While you can see the VT-1 Mk.3 missile is a visible upgrade in design (so there is room Pakistan can make an indgenous investment that pays divident to upgrade all our current crotal unitss aroudn the country)
http://www.novinite.com/media/images/2008-11/99311.jpg
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Weapons_HAF/Crotale_NG/Crotale_NG_eng.jpg

 

[Armchair]

Hi Armchair,

You have made some fair points. I have looked up the specifications of the FM-90 (max range 15 km); considering we operate these missiles at sea and on land in large numbers, we should focus on this missile and see how we can make an indigenous variant and upgrade the design as much as possible.

The Crotale NG VT1 Mk.3 Missile (latest model) has the same max range, but can maneuver up to 35Gs an even 50Gs in trying to intercept a target, with a top speed of Mach 3.5. Various radar and other sensor upgrades have improve the capability of this system and it is being fielded by the South Koreans.
https://www.army-technology.com/projects/crotale/

our current system; which may already have most of the features, just needs EO/IR Sensor and Radar on the actual missile carrying vehicle
http://defense-update.com/20150511_...oved-shorad-missiles-acquired-from-china.html

and the NG newer model
https://www.army-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/09/crotale3.jpg

Upgrading the Radar mast with an integrated mast; and using a single modern Multi-beam radar on top to guide the missiles is a minimum to keep up. with all the detection features in the new mast; we replace the Yagi Radar with another FM-90 launcher (this time with room for a reloading section underneath) and upgrade the type 630 ciws to type 730 ciws.

this would save costs, give out shipyards experience and a project to work on whicle they ramp up for a larger frigate program, and stay effective in the modern age.

Also we should not go for a simple type 054A frigate in large numbers, or even the Type 57 frigate/4000 Ton frigate designed; but something a little bigger.
something like the Hobart Class of Australia or Fremm-ER (Freda) Class of France which they are currently starting to build as a decent AAW Frigate/Destroyer to fill our top tier requirement. if we spend on stop gap measures when it is possible to get something a lot better for not much money, we will be pigeon holing ourselves into a brown water corner.

VT-1 Mk.3 Missile; relatively cheaper missile with modern capabilities
An Indigenous company could start by copying the VT-1 Mk.3, Then work on developing different seeker heads, different motors to maximize performance (such as dual pulse motors), and Thrust vectoring control surfaces if not already there to maximize agility of the missile. This missile can be a starting point for the Pakistani Defense industry to build on.

Here is a good read about the current FM-90 system
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-HQ-7-Crotale.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/Zhuhai-2010/FM-90-Crotale-Missile-APA-1S.jpg
http://www.ausairpower.net/Zhuhai-2010/FM-90-Crotale-Missile-APA-2S.jpg

While you can see the VT-1 Mk.3 missile is a visible upgrade in design (so there is room Pakistan can make an indgenous investment that pays divident to upgrade all our current crotal unitss aroudn the country)
http://www.novinite.com/media/images/2008-11/99311.jpg
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Weapons_HAF/Crotale_NG/Crotale_NG_eng.jpg

Hi Future PAF,

The FM-90 is very old design and it would be quite meaningless to try to replicate it, not to mention will upset China that you'd do something like that with a weapon you bought from them. Chinese SAMs are generally unreliable, there are quality issues and the FM-90 is an old and outdated design.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi Future PAF,

The FM-90 is very old design and it would be quite meaningless to try to replicate it, not to mention will upset China that you'd do something like that with a weapon you bought from them. Chinese SAMs are generally unreliable, there are quality issues and the FM-90 is an old and outdated design.

Either it will be expensive and fully modern, or older but cheaper and a place to start from.
OK then go for a newer design like the CAMM missile; lighter and more modern in terms of maneuverability, seekers, rocket motor....all of this started as an air to air missile. If we buy the rights to or are allowed to produce under license the A-Darter and Umkhonto missiles from South Africa for example; and keep improving it we can form a modern, high quality foundation from which to expand.

BTW here is an earlier thread where this issue came up, but just in terms of acquisition, not license production or copying. Bilal Khan from Quwa thinks it would only take 20-30 million to retro-fit a F-22P. I think starting with a deal for equipping the Ada corvettes and F-22P frigates with these South African missiles through some kind of collaborative R&D deal including ToT may be the way to go. The South Africans through their Marlin Program plan to have a 60 km range Umkhonto Extended Range as their final development goal. This fits in nicely with what you have been saying, and in terms of cost to reliability ratio; they are nearly western level reliable for bargain prices.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...da-class-corvettes-with-turkey.479495/page-31

Any Thoughts?