India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[Chhatrapati]

India still have Russia and only Russia to choose from if it want any sort of TOT. Forget about getting any tech for F-35 in the next 30 years. India will be lucky to get the plane itself. So it's either Russia or nothing. Daussault have no fifth generation fighter. Nor is anyone else except China. Whether you believe their J-20 or even J-31 is legit or not, it's not an option.

I still don't know what a Fifth Generation fighter is. As far as I see, the only FGFA was F-22 Raptor, now F-35(because they won many simulation wars.) You forgot Japan has an FGFA too, X-2 Shinshin. Russia has FGFA which is again a modified T-50. And China with J-31 and J-20.
Out of all, every FGFA has a unique design features. But I still wonder why J-20 look like a MiG 1.44 and J-31 to F-35. Anyway, that's whole another topic.

 

[axisofevil]

There is nothing preposterous about it. After seeing how and what China has been able to achieve from Russia, it's a no brainer why India insists on more than what has been going on for 5 decades! Not only do we have options, but our prior experiences with Russia has left a bad taste in our mouth. Instead of abruptly cutting our relations, we still weathered past and digested the losses from ill parts/spares, ill conceived agreements, lack of tech, etc. Now, we have firmly let the Russians know what we need and want. Its up to them, its their choice. No pressure or force is being used.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

China should also consider buying Pak-Fa fighter.

Why will they? They think (rightly or wrongly) that their design is better than Russian one.

 

[Peshwa]

India or no India Russia will fly PAK FA.
Their propaganda RT tv probably have more funding in the next 20 years than what India offered for tech transfer.
I can guarantee India will end up paying more for the PAK FA in the long run as they depart from early bird discount.

What guarantees are you offering?

what is India want to Russia
TOT of PAK FA for what purpose Assembling of PAK FA or Manufacturing of PAK FA in India ??
But Question is Arises Are India is Capable to handle this technology because they are already failed and facing the problems in Sukhui-30MKI Engines assembled in HAL INDIA under Russian License.

Shouldn't that be our concern? I mean whether we make 5th gen planes or paper planes with the TOT. At the end of the day, it's our money and how we spend it no?

I don't think India is ready to fully absorb T-50 tech even if Russia is willing to share.

In 1960's India and China received ToT of Mig-21 from Soviet around the same time, China benefited from the ToT and came up with F-7P, F-7M, FTC-2000 etc, India had nothing on its own. In 1990's, India and China received Su-27/Su-30 ToT around the same time, China now has J-11B, J-11D, J-15, J-16 with its own engines and avionics systems, India still has nothing to show for.

What would make ToT of T-50 any different?

Well then that basically alleviates majority of the issues the Russians have with TOT, i.e. Making india self reliant to not pursue future aircrafts from Russia. This has been mentioned in the opening post itself citing China's example.

So if india can't copy this tech due to its low to non existant technical base (as per your POV) then what's the issue in your mind? The answer to the OP of whether it's preposterous for india to ask TOT should be a resounding, NO!
Is that your opinion?

@Chinese-Dragon thoughts?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Well then that basically alleviates majority of the issues the Russians have with TOT, i.e. Making india self reliant to not pursue future aircrafts from Russia. This has been mentioned in the opening post itself citing China's example.

So if india can't copy this tech due to its low to non existant technical base (as per your POV) then what's the issue in your mind? The answer to the OP of whether it's preposterous for india to ask TOT should be a resounding, NO!
Is that your opinion?

@Chinese-Dragon thoughts?

Sure, if India is unable to absorb the technology, that would mean that Russia will not have the risk of losing future sales, or strengthening a future competitor for arms sales.

However, think about why the USA refused to export even ready-made F-22's to Israel?

I mean Israel is highly unlikely to let China and Russia take a look inside the F-22 right? Let alone sell them the tech under the table. Yet the USA still thought it was too much of a risk.

Even if Israel was serious about not letting the technology slip out, there is still a further risk of it being stolen, in addition to the risk of it being stolen directly from the USA (as was alleged to have happened via Chinese hacking).

Same reason they won't upgrade the Jet fighters in Taiwan. I mean Taiwan isn't going to sell the secrets to China right? Yet the risk is still huge of the technology finding its way into Chinese and Russian hands anyway, or onto the black market.

Russia knows that India is very comfy with the USA, and the USA knows that India is very comfy with Russia. Now imagine from the USA's perspective for instance, if they had F-22's in India for whatever reason, how could they be sure that India wouldn't let Russian engineers onto the site or pass on information to Russia?

Or vice versa? Russia has been watching as America became India's top defense partner in the last few years. India is now seen to be very pro-USA, how does Russia know that India won't pass on some information to the USA on Russia's 5th gen technology? In exchange for some benefit, such as stopping Russian/American arms sales to Pakistan?

 

[MultaniGuy]

Just one word to describe the idea, preposterous!

 

[Dungeness]

Well then that basically alleviates majority of the issues the Russians have with TOT, i.e. Making india self reliant to not pursue future aircrafts from Russia. This has been mentioned in the opening post itself citing China's example.

So if india can't copy this tech due to its low to non existant technical base (as per your POV) then what's the issue in your mind? The answer to the OP of whether it's preposterous for india to ask TOT should be a resounding, NO!
Is that your opinion?

We may have different understanding on what purpose ToT is for. You may think it is about "Ingenuous Production", including crucial components, and we are talking about "Import, Absorb, Digest, and Innovation".

With due respect, India has not demonstrated its ability to achieve what Chinese have done with the same Russian ToT, and this round is not going to be much different. So what is the point of "demanding" of full ToT if you are not going to make use of it anyway? If India could do it, it would have done what Chinese did in the last half century.

There is no point talking about "moral high ground" when it comes to national security, so let's not go that route. Nobody will spoon-feed you their newest tech anyway, no matter how much you are willing to pay, and how much you think you deserve it.

India should focus on getting its 5th gen fighters fielded ASAP, as Chinese have already inducted her own 5th gen fighter jets last year.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Russia knows that India is very comfy with the USA, and the USA knows that India is very comfy with Russia. Now imagine from the USA's perspective for instance, if they had F-22's in India for whatever reason, how could they be sure that India wouldn't let Russian engineers onto the site or pass on information to Russia?

Or vice versa? Russia has been watching as America became India's top defense partner in the last few years. India is now seen to be very pro-USA, how does Russia know that India won't pass on some information to the USA on Russia's 5th gen technology? In exchange for some benefit, such as stopping Russian/American arms sales to Pakistan?

If Russians were so wary about their technology making its way outside, they would not export it at all, like US does. With India signing LEOMA with USA, you can expect some US tech folks present on Indian Airforce bases. What if those folks were given access to PAKFA?
I don't think its leakage of technology which is the concern here. Russia has a history of offering her latest and greatest toys for export. Remember Mig-21? They offered it for sale even though it was bleeding-edge at that point in time. China also has a history of copying things partially or fully from Russian weapons but that has not stopped Russia from selling to China.

I believe its hardball negotiation, you pay a lot more if you want a real ToT.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

If Russians were so wary about their technology making its way outside, they would not export it at all, like US does. With India signing LEOMA with USA, you can expect some US tech folks present on Indian Airforce bases. What if those folks were given access to PAKFA?
I don't think its leakage of technology which is the concern here. Russia has a history of offering her latest and greatest toys for export. Remember Mig-21? They offered it for sale even though it was bleeding-edge at that point in time. China also has a history of copying things partially or fully from Russian weapons but that has not stopped Russia from selling to China.

I believe its hardball negotiation, you pay a lot more if you want a real ToT.

That's the thing. I don't think it's even possible to have ToT for 5th generation technologies.

Look at France, after more than a decade of hardball negotiation, they still refused to part with any ToT at all, even for a 4.5 gen fighter? India ended up buying 36 off-the-shelf with no ToT.

I mean the Rafale is a platform that had its first prototype built in the 1980's.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

We may have different understanding on what purpose ToT is for. You may think it is about "Ingenuous Production", including crucial components, and we are talking about "Import, Absorb, Digest, and Innovation".

No, all India wants is design and software source code for sensors and design of engine.

With due respect, India has not demonstrated its ability to achieve what Chinese have done with the same Russian ToT, and this round is not going to be much different. So what is the point of "demanding" of full ToT if you are not going to make use of it anyway? If India could do it, it would have done what Chinese did in the last half century.

Thats not Russia's headache. What India does with the ToT is India's choice. Lastly, Chinese are unique at copying any product defence or otherwise, if the production happens in China. Heck IBM used to produce parts of their computers in Japan but Japanese produced their own designs and not copied what IBM was producing. Do that in China and you have a complete copy.

There is no point talking about "moral high ground" when it comes to national security, so let's not go that route. Nobody will spoon-feed you their newest tech anyway, no matter how much you are willing to pay, and how much you think you deserve it.

India should focus on getting its 5th gen fighters fielded ASAP, as Chinese have already inducted her own 5th gen fighter jets last year.

No one is asking for spoon-feeding. They are asking for designs and source code for sensors. I remember Rafael also being offered with full source code of radar firmwares. And French companies are providing Indian companies consultancy and design help in developing new engines. BTW, Rafale is latest and greatest that France has to offer. It comes all down to money. If you throw enough money, Russia will move their entire R&D in India.

That's the thing. I don't think it's even possible to have ToT for 5th generation technologies.

Look at France, after more than a decade of hardball negotiation, they still refused to part with any ToT at all, even for a 4.5 gen fighter? India ended up buying 36 off-the-shelf with no ToT.

I mean the Rafale is a platform that had its first prototype built in the 1980's.

Indo French deal was less troubled on ToT but more on who takes accountability of French designed but made in India planes. Dassult was not ready to take accountability for anything HAL does. Indian side harped about that being a prerequisit in the MMRCA. BTW France was more than happy to share Radar firmware source code and help India in fixing their engine design. They are doing that even with the limited 37 plane order.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Indo French deal was less troubled on ToT but more on who takes accountability of French designed but made in India planes. Dassult was not ready to take accountability for anything HAL does. Indian side harped about that being a prerequisit in the MMRCA.

But India eventually did order 36 Rafale off-the-shelf with no ToT right? So why was the ToT dropped from the deal?

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

But India eventually did order 36 Rafale off-the-shelf with no ToT right? So why was the ToT dropped from the deal?

I updated my post. French are actually helping Indian companies in engine design. It is a part of their offset obligation. Further they have shared Radar source codes to let India integrate indian BVRs with Rafale. I think India will test our Astra from Rafale, once we get them. Its not ToT which got axed in 36 jet deal. It was the Made In India part which was troubling French. They didn't want to take responsibility of delays caused by sluggish HAL.

 

[NirmalKrish]

India will pay for part of the development. In return, Russia will build the plane and sell it back to India with limited TOT. But if India is looking for total TOT, Its a pipe dream that will never happen. India will end up waiting in line for F-35 10-20 years down the road while Pakistani stealth fighters roam the skies if India with impunity.

That's great! thanks for the info, had your fun?

Which ever way India goes, it is a win win for Pakistan.


India need to make a Fighter desperately to counter JF-17 and India needs it done cheaply.

How is it a win win? first get your JF-17 block 2's up and running! by that time the 36 Rafael's and probz more will join our fleet!

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

How is it a win win? first get your JF-17 block 2's up and running! by that time the 36 Rafael's and probz more will join our fleet!

Actually, we have Mig-21 which is enough for JF-17. Given the size of India, JF-17 cannot do any deep penetration. It is a short-legged jet. Seriously, Su-35 was a great choice for Pakistan. Alas, either they don't have money to buy it or Russia knows which side of the bread has more butter.

 

[NirmalKrish]

This thread is about India issueing an ultimatum to get full tech transfer, include source code. And Russia will say no. India will leave with no other choice but wait in line patiently for f-35 while Pakistani stealth jets roam above Indian skies. India is becoming greedy and desperate with Russian arm suppliers and it will end up with nothing, nada.

India is doing what she believes is in her best interests, either way - the only person to lose out is Russia, there is nothing to determine India's loss at best it will improve self-reliance. To me, that is the best way to move forward rather than accept ludicrous deals which practically give back nothing!

Su-30MKI lessons learnt - ain't falling for that again! so please