India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[NirmalKrish]

Isn't MKI also include tech transfer as well? If not, can't you guys reverse engineer them and build upon them? You don't expect Russians to spoon fed you everything? Do you?

Please don't impose your practices on us, india has a great deal of respect of intellectual property rights, unlike china. This is fact!

 

[Peshwa]

We may have different understanding on what purpose ToT is for. You may think it is about "Ingenuous Production", including crucial components, and we are talking about "Import, Absorb, Digest, and Innovation".

Can you touch on this a little more? Maybe by citing examples?

With due respect, India has not demonstrated its ability to achieve what Chinese have done with the same Russian ToT, and this round is not going to be much different. So what is the point of "demanding" of full ToT if you are not going to make use of it anyway? If India could do it, it would have done what Chinese did in the last half century.

I don't understand this logic. So just because we did not make use of it in the past, that we should just give up on any future plans? Our strategies should just be limited to our historical behavior?
Whether India could do it, can do it, will do it, is for India to determine no? If we are willing to pay for it, why would we settle for anything less than the perceived value in our minds for the product and the price being paid?
Now after that, if we make 5th gen planes or paper planes with the TOT is our prerogative.
I don't see how that should factor into our demands.

There is no point talking about "moral high ground" when it comes to national security, so let's not go that route. Nobody will spoon-feed you their newest tech anyway, no matter how much you are willing to pay, and how much you think you deserve it.

I'm sorry, but how is this spoon feeding when we are willing to partner in development and investment? Spoon feeding would be if we were buying through aid and handouts. Spoon feeding would be if the Russians got nothing in return for this. I mean we are offering 50% cost of development of the FGFA, a custom program for Indian needs (including being involved in the development phase), 25 Billion in follow on orders guaranteed, strategic partnership including funding for upgrades and sharing of resources and infrastructure. That too on an untested plane, with no customers and which is not fully funded. If there was a hedge against risk, this would be it! Why is that not obvious to you?
I don't see how this is spoon feeding.

India should focus on getting its 5th gen fighters fielded ASAP, as Chinese have already inducted her own 5th gen fighter jets last year.

Preaching to the choir!

 

[salarsikander]

with Russia for quite a few other projects and have made contribution. Su-30 MKI comes to mind. India's helped creating a variant which is one of the best in Su-30 line. Since then India has come a long way. I am sure they can make good contribution in composits and avionics.

Please share as to what technological contribution of india is so far? As for mki. Its a custom made order. Still no input. Significant and critical tech are bought off shelf, such as avionics, mission computer etc etc. Though I'll have to dig up details. Its like you got the whole jet in factory mode, installed after markets high quality spare. What's the big deal ? Here?

YI, India's TATA recently bought Jaguar Land Rover in UK and now a lot of their latest and greatest technologies and design inputs are visible in new cars released in India, like

Tata did bought jaguar, but again the R&D is will in UK . anything that jaguar designs remains its own unless tata fully merges and replaces the engineers with Indian a hostile takeover. Then trust me the value of jaguar will go down like that of pan masala. It is off this specific reason and for earning, the haven't done hostile take over and never will

blueprints required.

Nope they won't give you blue print at all. Because at the end of the day, you're still using fords basic model with your own custom made parts. Why eoud they give you blue prints of that. You might as well design your own jet then.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Russia would never give the technology to India

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Please share as to what technological contribution of india is so far? As for mki. Its a custom made order. Still no input. Significant and critical tech are bought off shelf, such as avionics, mission computer etc etc. Though I'll have to dig up details. Its like you got the whole jet in factory mode, installed after markets high quality spare. What's the big deal ? Here?

Remember this was 90s India, even China back then was inducting Su-30 MK (modern commercial ie export version) as it is in Su-30 MKK. India went on and identified which French and Israeli systems will work well with Su-30. India did the path breaking part of making Su-30 a true open architecture which was reused a lot by Russia in exporting to other customers. To put into cars perspective, India invented aftermarket customization for Su-30 which Russia is using to make money.

And it does not end here. They also developed a new super sonic anti ship/Land attack cruise missile (Brahmos ALCM). This fills the gap for Su 30 users due to low range of Kh-30 missile family. Russia herself and a quite a few countries are interested in it.

(OT)

Tata did bought jaguar, but again the R&D is will in UK . anything that jaguar designs remains its own unless tata fully merges and replaces the engineers with Indian a hostile takeover. Then trust me the value of jaguar will go down like that of pan masala. It is off this specific reason and for earning, the haven't done hostile take over and never will

This discussion will become OT so I will answer briefly. Please look at company results of JLR on wikipedia atleast 2009-16 and then comment. Doesn't matter which country the R&D centres sit. TATA has all their tech at their disposal and they are putting it to good use in Tata Bolt.

Nope they won't give you blue print at all. Because at the end of the day, you're still using fords basic model with your own custom made parts. Why eoud they give you blue prints of that. You might as well design your own jet then.

Simple reason, if they want to make money in India they will have to give blue prints. Otherwise we can buy from USA/Sweden/France etc without blueprint as well. Atleast their planes will not find way into China.

For our own jet, we are designing anyways, refer to AMCA. Having a blueprint and ToT will make it easier for us.

Mind you Russia also have stakes here. If they do not compromise, they might as well kiss their whole market goodbye as they will have less money to carry out R&D for future platforms. Remember, China is near or ahead of Russian level of R&D. Soon they will replace Russia in fighter jet and other arms export if Russians do not invest in their R&D.

 

[schoolboy]

Tata did bought jaguar, but again the R&D is will in UK . anything that jaguar designs remains its own unless tata fully merges and replaces the engineers with Indian a hostile takeover. Then trust me the value of jaguar will go down like that of pan masala. It is off this specific reason and for earning, the haven't done hostile take over and never will

You may or may not be right about jets but you're mistaken re JLR. JLR is a wholly owned subs. of Tata Motors, half the board are Tata executives and under English law many exceptions exist permitting contracts otherwise than on arms length. There are plenty of tax reasons to not merge the two. In short TML can do whatever it pleases with JLR and their tech - it is a different matter that most of that tech compliment's TML's existing businesses (rather than supplement). Despite that platforms are being integrated more than people know - drivetrain commonalities have been put in place for the high end TML SUVs and the Land Rover. Sales have been good following the Tata takeover.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greats...re-than-its-competitors-in-2016/#356da7b0386a

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...gamble-pays-off-as-big-cat-purrs-at-last.html

 

[salarsikander]

You may or may not be right about jets but you're mistaken re JLR. JLR is a wholly owned subs. of Tata Motors, half the board are Tata executives and under English law many exceptions exist permitting contracts otherwise than on arms length. There are plenty of tax reasons to not merge the two. In short TML can do whatever it pleases with JLR and their tech - it is a different matter that most of that tech compliment's TML's existing businesses (rather than supplement). Despite that platforms are being integrated more than people know - drivetrain commonalities have been put in place for the high end TML SUVs and the Land Rover. Sales have been good following the Tata takeover.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greats...re-than-its-competitors-in-2016/#356da7b0386a

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...gamble-pays-off-as-big-cat-purrs-at-last.html

Do you have its R& D In India ? Do you have the designer Indians ?

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Do you have its R& D In India ? Do you have the designer Indians ?

@salarsikander , @schoolboy If possible this discussion can be taken in another thread. I realize my mistake on bringing this point of TATA and JLR and I wanted it to be small. Lets keep this thread focused on topic.

 

[salarsikander]

Remember this was 90s India, even China back then was inducting Su-30 MK (modern commercial ie export version) as it is in Su-30 MKK. India went on and identified which French and Israeli systems will work well with Su-30. India did the path breaking part of making Su-30 a true open architecture which was reused a lot by Russia in exporting to other customers. To put into cars perspective, India invented aftermarket customization for Su-30 which Russia is using to make money.

And it does not end here. They also developed a new super sonic anti ship/Land attack cruise missile (Brahmos ALCM). This fills the gap for Su 30 users due to low range of Kh-30 missile family. Russia herself and a quite a few countries are interested in it.

(OT)

This discussion will become OT so I will answer briefly. Please look at company results of JLR on wikipedia atleast 2009-16 and then comment. Doesn't matter which country the R&D centres sit. TATA has all their tech at their disposal and they are putting it to good use in Tata Bolt.



Simple reason, if they want to make money in India they will have to give blue prints. Otherwise we can buy from USA/Sweden/France etc without blueprint as well. Atleast their planes will not find way into China.

For our own jet, we are designing anyways, refer to AMCA. Having a blueprint and ToT will make it easier for us.

Mind you Russia also have stakes here. If they do not compromise, they might as well kiss their whole market goodbye as they will have less money to carry out R&D for future platforms. Remember, China is near or ahead of Russian level of R&D. Soon they will replace Russia in fighter jet and other arms export if Russians do not invest in their R&D.

Youre mistaken India is not only the market here. Saudi Arabia too is in touch with Them. You never what Hold. So please get off the high horse that youre the only one with money.
TBH honest Indian attitude sounds like, someone who recently got few buck is in town and is showing off.

 

[schoolboy]

Do you have its R& D In India ? Do you have the designer Indians ?

In auto sector I believe so. It's not been easy from the ambassador days of the 70s and Maruti of 80s but car tech is quite contemporary now and Honda, Hyundai, Suzuki have R&D subsidiaries in India (in addition to China and Korea/Japan).

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Youre mistaken India is not only the market here. Saudi Arabia too is in touch with Them. You never what Hold. So please get off the high horse that youre the only one with money.
TBH honest Indian attitude sounds like, someone who recently got few buck is in town and is showing off.

Well, I have already covered this point in the thread. SA when and if they want to take up Russian platforms will take them up. Right now, they are not taking it. Like all deals this also has a chance of breaking, but the risk is worth taking, IMHO. As far as attitude goes, it is simply business. We want something of value from Russia and are ready to pay for it. It is upto Russia to decide if they are willing to sell it. These things are decided by hard facts and not emotions or attitudes. If Russia is willing to sell us just planes, so be it, they will find us leaning toward Frances etc. And mind you, Russia during entire history has armed China, even though India and China are at draggers drawn. As I said, it is business. If Russia believe we should compromise on our national security to support their business, well they need to loosen up their tight grip on technology if they want more development funds from us.

 

[salarsikander]

they want more development funds from us.

Please feel free to to buy off the shelf stealth platform for mere paanch billion dollar then.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Please feel free to to buy off the shelf stealth platform for mere paanch billion dollar then.

I guess you are getting me wrong. All I am saying is that full ToT is not impossible per-say. I am not claiming that it will happen for 5 billion dollars. It may take 30 or 40 billion dollars to make it happen, but it is not unthinkable.

 

[salarsikander]

I guess you are getting me wrong. All I am saying is that full ToT is not impossible per-say. I am not claiming that it will happen for 5 billion dollars. It may take 30 or 40 billion dollars to make it happen, but it is not unthinkable.

for 30-40 billion you migh as well throw that much amount in your own industry.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

for 30-40 billion you migh as well throw that much amount in your own industry.

You are right about throwing money at our own companies. Problem is we will still need external help. China took so many decades to develop WS engines and they are still not in massive production. This is a problem where throwing money on available talent/skills is not going to cut it. We will need consultancy and study of proven designs to actually arrive anywhere.

Ideally, I will like to see HAL, Russian companies and few major Indian private companies take this up together. Private companies in India have shown ability to absorb technology and extend it. If it is just GTRE we run a risk of prolonged development cycle.

India has started AMCA but sure as hell they will need expertise of an expericened country like Russia to complete it properly.