India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[salarsikander]

india need to develop alone

Israel should help india

 

[c-dome1]

Well, if chinese Woshang can be fixed, there is no reason why Indian Kaveri cannot be fixed. With right kind of technical consultancy that is. Stealth is a part of entire plane design. If we are paying for design and development, we will and should get it. If Russia does not partner with us, so be it. We can join with France or Japan or Korea in their JV for 5th gen fighter plane.

can you develop alone?

Israel should help india

too much money to invest and we dont need stealth fighter we have f 35

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

can you develop alone?

India is starting AMCA for that eventuality. Having a joint venture or help in certain aspects will speed-up things and make them more reliable.

 

[salarsikander]

Well, if chinese Woshang can be fixed, there is no reason why Indian Kaveri cannot be fixed. With right kind of technical consultancy that is. Stealth is a part of entire plane design. If we are paying for design and development, we will and should get it. If Russia does not partner with us, so be it. We can join with France or Japan or Korea in their JV for 5th gen fighter plane.

My dear,I'm not talking as Pakistani but as neutral.

See how much you are paying French to fix an engine. Engines as highly prized national assert. They will only help you so much. Again TOT cannot be bought. You're e more than welcome to join any JV. But the attitude will only get you close enough. Unless you learn and contribute. Its not just about money

India is starting AMCA for that eventuality. Having a joint venture or help in certain aspects will speed-up things and make them more reliable.

India should honestly look for diversification. First it should master building 4gen jets. Then move to next level. Pakistan is in its very infancy aviation industry. We just needed to get the job done.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Again if you shove this under their throat. The deal will get cancelled. And Russia with a potential stealth fighter blue prints can may as well ask China or turkey perhaps. See you guys have nothing on hand. You merely spent money. They have the tech and the means to make it. They're putting the btains . you are merely throwing in peanuts at them. If money could buy TOT. Then Arabs would he like Japan. You see knowledge is learnt and experienced not bought.
Secondly cozying too much with USA will have ts repercussions. You simply ignore that fact

Let the deal get cancelled. Russia will also feel the pinch. China is no longer going to buy any fighter jets from Russia. They said that Su35S is the last foreign plane they are going to buy. Turkey is a long shot. Even there Russia will have provide the technology. You cannot make anyone pay for something and not give them that. Doesn't work. If you make a country pay to develop your weapons, they will like to take the weapons technology developed.

My dear,I'm not talking as Pakistani but as neutral.

See how much you are paying French to fix an engine. Engines as highly prized national assert. They will only help you so much. Again TOT cannot be bought. You're e more than welcome to join any JV. But the attitude will only get you close enough. Unless you learn and contribute. Its not just about money

It is always about what is in short supply. If the money is in short supply, money talks. If know how is in short supply, know how rules. Right now, as far as Russia goes, money is in short supply.

 

[salarsikander]

Let the deal get cancelled. Russia will also feel the pinch. China is no longer going to buy any fighter jets from Russia. They said that Su35S is the last foreign plane they are going to buy. Turkey is a long shot. Even there Russia will have provide the technology. You cannot make anyone pay for something and not give them that. Doesn't work. If you make a country pay to develop your weapons, they will like to take the weapons technology developed.

Tryust me no country does that. Even if they would. Don't you think what you're paying for an entire package is just to small ??? May he if you throw 30 bn plus cash. Then it would oil the gears

Let the deal get cancelled. Russia will also feel the pinch. China is no longer going to buy any fighter jets from Russia. They said that Su35S is the last foreign plane they are going to buy. Turkey is a long shot. Even there Russia will have provide the technology. You cannot make anyone pay for something and not give them that. Doesn't work. If you make a country pay to develop your weapons, they will like to take the weapons technology developed.


It is always about what is in short supply. If the money is in short supply, money talks. If know how is in short supply, know how rules. Right now, as far as Russia goes, money is in short supply.

Jot exactly. They have ready to built jet in their hand. Perhapsnsaudis could throe in money i if theynfeel threatened or maybe Iran? Potentially China too. You can not simply rule it out like that.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Jot exactly. They have ready to built jet in their hand. Perhapsnsaudis could throe in money i if theynfeel threatened or maybe Iran? Potentially China too. You can not simply rule it out like that.

Why do you think it is going to either India or China or SA? If Russia can, they will get money from all of them. They have done this is past and with other platforms. Mig-21? India has it, China has it and so does a number of other nations. That said with China it is not going to work. Chinese are not putting money in foreign jets anymore. SA, I don't know, if they want, they will show up. Given the fact they haven't tells a lot. It will come down to a race, if they do not get funds they will make concession.

Oh one more thing. What makes you think that India's technological contribution will be zero. We have done a joint development with Russia for quite a few other projects and have made contribution. Su-30 MKI comes to mind. India's helped creating a variant which is one of the best in Su-30 line. Since then India has come a long way. I am sure they can make good contribution in composits and avionics.

 

[xyxmt]

Let the deal get cancelled. Russia will also feel the pinch. China is no longer going to buy any fighter jets from Russia. They said that Su35S is the last foreign plane they are going to buy. Turkey is a long shot. Even there Russia will have provide the technology. You cannot make anyone pay for something and not give them that. Doesn't work. If you make a country pay to develop your weapons, they will like to take the weapons technology developed.
.

As much as i know about this deal, India asked Russian to design a 5th Gen fighter for them with their specifications, for that off course India had to invest money since it was a custom order. Just like I order a custom car from Ford wont mean Ford will provide me with all the blue prints.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

As much as i know about this deal, India asked Russian to design a 5th Gen fighter for them with their specifications, for that off course India had to invest money since it was a custom order. Just like I order a custom car from Ford wont mean Ford will provide me with all the blue prints.

Well, ford won't make one or few cars for you, customized beyond what their basic platform provides. If you are ordering one nation worth of cars, they will be happy to setup a factory in your country together with all the blueprints required. Depends upon how big your order is. Not for 300 million dollars but surely for 30 billion dollars worth.

 

[xyxmt]

Well, ford won't make one or few cars for you, customized beyond what their basic platform provides. If you are ordering one nation worth of cars, they will be happy to setup a factory in your country together with all the blueprints required. Depends upon how big your order is. Not for 300 million dollars but surely for 30 billion dollars worth.

yes they will setup factory with their control and Russia is willing do that

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

yes they will setup factory with their control and Russia is willing do that

Oh those things will be negotiated with Ford (or Russia). You can put that we want these many of our engineers to work on new engine that you will be designing or customizing for us. We want these many engineers of ours to work on the new body (airframe) you are building for us, so on and so forth. You can put clauses in the contract and payment schedule.

All I am saying is that these know how can be bought for the right price and will to negotiate. Especially with Russia (or Ford for that matter ) which is currently having financial trouble.

FYI, initially this is how a number of Chinese companies acquired technical know how from western companies to do production for them. Here we are talking about doing product development and production for us.
[OT]
FYI, India's TATA recently bought Jaguar Land Rover in UK and now a lot of their latest and greatest technologies and design inputs are visible in new cars released in India, like Tata Bolt.

 

[faithfulguy]

India is doing what she believes is in her best interests, either way - the only person to lose out is Russia, there is nothing to determine India's loss at best it will improve self-reliance. To me, that is the best way to move forward rather than accept ludicrous deals which practically give back nothing!

Su-30MKI lessons learnt - ain't falling for that again! so please

Isn't MKI also include tech transfer as well? If not, can't you guys reverse engineer them and build upon them? You don't expect Russians to spoon fed you everything? Do you?

 

[xyxmt]

FYI, initially this is how a number of Chinese companies acquired technical know how from western companies to do production for them. Here we are talking about doing product development and production for us.
[OT]
FYI, India's TATA recently bought Jaguar Land Rover in UK and now a lot of their latest and greatest technologies and design inputs are visible in new cars released in India, like Tata Bolt.

Chinese stole it

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Chinese stole it

Beg Buy Steal. Doesn't matter.

 

[Peshwa]

Sure, if India is unable to absorb the technology, that would mean that Russia will not have the risk of losing future sales, or strengthening a future competitor for arms sales.

However, think about why the USA refused to export even ready-made F-22's to Israel?

I mean Israel is highly unlikely to let China and Russia take a look inside the F-22 right? Let alone sell them the tech under the table. Yet the USA still thought it was too much of a risk.

Even if Israel was serious about not letting the technology slip out, there is still a further risk of it being stolen, in addition to the risk of it being stolen directly from the USA (as was alleged to have happened via Chinese hacking).

Same reason they won't upgrade the Jet fighters in Taiwan. I mean Taiwan isn't going to sell the secrets to China right? Yet the risk is still huge of the technology finding its way into Chinese and Russian hands anyway, or onto the black market.

Russia knows that India is very comfy with the USA, and the USA knows that India is very comfy with Russia. Now imagine from the USA's perspective for instance, if they had F-22's in India for whatever reason, how could they be sure that India wouldn't let Russian engineers onto the site or pass on information to Russia?

Or vice versa? Russia has been watching as America became India's top defense partner in the last few years. India is now seen to be very pro-USA, how does Russia know that India won't pass on some information to the USA on Russia's 5th gen technology? In exchange for some benefit, such as stopping Russian/American arms sales to Pakistan?

Right off the bat, I would say that the comparison is misplaced.
The F-22 is a whole different beast. It was never meant to be exported and even besides that, the project was a first of its kind, tried and first tested IN 1997, almost 20 years ago. Its a unique product that had one of kind technology (even to this day) and was fully funded internally. Besides, the US was not looking for funding or development partners. The plane is a generation ahead in terms of development as well as upgrades.

You're comparing this to a PAKFA which is still in its testing phase, does not have "unique" technologies (given F-35 and J-20 possess similar features plus or minus few) and most importantly, is still looking for funding.

When you provide the example of Israel, you are comparing an export customer to a development and investment partner that is willing to fund the PAKFA and buy numbers much greater than what Israel could afford. The two situations cannot be matched on an even keel.

Lastly, if India is indeed going to be a development partner in PAKFA with 50% investment and follow on orders, what reason would India have to leak any of this tech to the US? Don't you think it goes against our vested interests? Why would we do that?
And even then leak to who? The US? that has TWO 5th gen planes and probably possesses these technologies if not more?!
Your examples are trying to retrofit a square peg in a round hole.