India's civilian aircraft plan expected to get nod tomorrow

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Says who? Buddy I didn't posted the pic out of no reason, the blue colored aircraft in the front is the MTA in the military version, but the white one behind is a MTA passanger version for civil airlines, without the rear ramp, but with side doors and windows! A civil conversion was considered from the very begining from Russian and Indian partners, but RTA now is just another example how we make things too complicated.



Aero India 2003 - Part 5


Btw, high wing aircrafts might have more advantages in the cargo field, but are widely used as passenger aircraft in short to medium ranges too, which means the same regional area as the RTA is aimed to.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/8/4/1814489.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/3/6/1879637.jpg



AN-158
AN-148
AN-74TK-300


Do 328 (the bigger brother of the Do 228 that HAL produces too)

With prop engines:
http://www.luftfahrt.net/galerie/ph...3_D-COSA_Fairchild-Dornier-328_Team-Lufth.jpg

With jet engines:
http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/dornier_do328300jet_karstenpalt.jpg


Same reason why I still suggest to develop the MTA with jet engines with the Russians and let HAL/NAL build a prop engined version of it, while both could be used for civil purposes.

His point would have been that the ideal wing for an airliner would be a 'Swept back low wing' as this wing has several advantages over others and the primary being that it can travel at a much faster rate than a normal wing plus it gives more stability at high speed flights.

There is no aircraft that can fly faster without sweeping back the wings.

 

[sancho]

His point would have been that the ideal wing for an airliner would be a 'Swept back low wing' as this wing has several advantages over others and the primary being that it can travel at a much faster rate than a normal wing plus it gives more stability at high speed flights.

There is no aircraft that can fly faster without sweeping back the wings.

And I didn't denied the advantages, but they mainly are important for bigger aircrafts with higher capacity and that fly to longer ranges. RTA was aimed as a small regional aircraft and even the current capacity would fit to MTA too, so it's easier and way cheaper to simply develop a civil varient with high commonality, than to develop a whole new aircraft, only to say we developed it alone.
The low wing design could be developed later, as I said in the class of an A320 or 737, which suits Indian requirements way more than such small airliners. IndiGo Airlines for example has 150 x A320 and 321s on order and that is only one of the new privat airlines that are coming to the Indian market.

We have to learn to do things simple and logically, not to dream only about the best that is possible right from the begining, that's how we messed up several developments.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

And I didn't denied the advantages, but they mainly are important for bigger aircrafts with higher capacity and that fly to longer ranges. RTA was aimed as a small regional aircraft and even the current capacity would fit to MTA too, so it's easier and way cheaper to simply develop a civil varient with high commonality, than to develop a whole new aircraft, only to say we developed it alone.
The low wing design could be developed later, as I said in the class of an A320 or 737, which suits Indian requirements way more than such small airliners. IndiGo Airlines for example has 150 x A320 and 321s on order and that is only one of the new privat airlines that are coming to the Indian market.

We have to learn to do things simple and logically, not to dream only about the best that is possible right from the begining, that's how we messed up several developments.

If we talk of India the airlines are now targeting the smaller routes more and hence planes like ATR and Q 400 are the one which are going to be the workhorse on smaller routes.It is said that these are the routes/planes which brings the most cash athough i dont know how true that is.

Yeah you have made a good point.We should develop something which must share a common patform.

 

[sancho]

If we talk of India the airlines are now targeting the smaller routes more and hence planes like ATR and Q 400 are the one which are going to be the workhorse on smaller routes.It is said that these are the routes/planes which brings the most cash athough i dont know how true that is.

Indigo Air is an Indian air liner and the 150 x new aircrafts should tell us something! Also look at the numbers Brahmos_2 gave:

In India,
Jet Airways have a fleet of 17 70seater ATR-72s.
Spice jet have 15 78seater Bombardier Dash 8s.

Hardly 30 aircrafts and both versions are 70 to 80 seaters, so not much difference to MTA either. What sets them apart though is the fact, they they are prop engined aircrafts, which have advantages at smaller airstrips and are also more cost-effective than jet airliners (btw, both high wing designs).

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Indigo Air is an Indian air liner and the 150 x new aircrafts should tell us something! Also look at the numbers Brahmos_2 gave:



Hardly 30 aircrafts and both versions are 70 to 80 seaters, so not much difference to MTA either. What sets them apart though is the fact, they they are prop engined aircrafts, which have advantages at smaller airstrips and are also more cost-effective than jet airliners (btw, both high wing designs).

Indigo has great expansion plans for the future.Thats a different debate all together.

Regarding the ATRs cost effectiveness...thats why they are called the workhorses of airlines.Q 400 is a superior plane than ATR which wil be getting inducted more in the future.

 

[Sergi]

Antonov! They have financial problems, but a lot of expertice and would be a logical partner.

And to make it even worse imo, why even develop a complete new aircraft, when we simply could develop a civil airliner based on MTA?

Exactly that what I was saying. MTA is already delayed as hell the additional resource would help it and we can derive Civilian version from it keeping commonality with force version. More economical and even if civilian version failed to attract customers it would not be a big deal.

 

[Sergi]

That depends on the route they choose..if they want to operate from, Delhi to Mumbai, bigger aircrafts like 737 or A320 will be their natural choice since they will get enough passengers to fill the seats...but if they want to connect two small regional airports using bigger airplanes will not be profitable.

In India,
Jet Airways have a fleet of 17 70seater ATR-72s.
Spice jet have 15 78seater Bombardier Dash 8s.

Correct and thanks for stats.

This is the situation when not many airports are available. When proposed expansion worked every small city will have a decent airport. Then it would be more feasible to cover alot airports in one go like the local train . So certainly big jets will be preferred.

Can you post the numbers of other jets with more or different capacity of the same airliner ???

 

[Brahmos_2]

Says who? Buddy I didn't posted the pic out of no reason, the blue colored aircraft in the front is the MTA in the military version, but the white one behind is a MTA passanger version for civil airlines, without the rear ramp, but with side doors and windows! A civil conversion was considered from the very begining from Russian and Indian partners, but RTA now is just another example how we make things too complicated.



Aero India 2003 - Part 5


Btw, high wing aircrafts might have more advantages in the cargo field, but are widely used as passenger aircraft in short to medium ranges too, which means the same regional area as the RTA is aimed to.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/8/4/1814489.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/3/6/1879637.jpg



AN-158
AN-148
AN-74TK-300


Do 328 (the bigger brother of the Do 228 that HAL produces too)

With prop engines:
http://www.luftfahrt.net/galerie/ph...3_D-COSA_Fairchild-Dornier-328_Team-Lufth.jpg

With jet engines:
http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/dornier_do328300jet_karstenpalt.jpg


Same reason why I still suggest to develop the MTA with jet engines with the Russians and let HAL/NAL build a prop engined version of it, while both could be used for civil purposes.

What I studied is highwing configuration is commonly used in either cargo or propeller driven aircrafts..Yes there are highwinged turbofan passenger aircrafts even some airlines use IL-76 as passenger aircraft,but they are very limited because highwinged aircrafts cant fly efficiently at high speeds.

In my opinion,since we are looking for an entirely new design,low wing configuration is a good.Also in future,keeping RTA as a base model we can make bigger jets similar to B737 or A320.

BTW, is there any confirmation about the RTAs engine??

 

[Brahmos_2]

Correct and thanks for stats.

This is the situation when not many airports are available. When proposed expansion worked every small city will have a decent airport. Then it would be more feasible to cover alot airports in one go like the local train . So certainly big jets will be preferred.

there comes another problem,frequent landing & take off is not economical in terms of fuel,maintenance & service life of the aircraft.

Can you post the numbers of other jets with more or different capacity of the same airliner ???

I didnt get you

 

[confound thinker]

That's a bad idea!! MTA is having a 'high wing' configuration,which is not suitable for passenger aircrafts.

high wing aircrafts are not so efficient in high speeds(cruising period) but they give better performances at low speeds.

If you want an aircraft which is capable of taking off from a small runway with heavy payload,better go for a highwing aircraft.
C-17 & IL-76 are perfect examples.

Passenger aircrafts normally employ low or mid wing configurations.

Is that true?? any source?

Well not the best of sources but there are many speculations that civilian aircraft provision is also there in the contract signed
Livefist: UAC-HAL's Multirole Transport Aircraft JV To Be Incorporated Next Month

 

[Sergi]

there comes another problem,frequent landing & take off is not economical in terms of fuel,maintenance & service life of the aircraft.



I didnt get you

1. Connectivty comes at a price. Said problems will be on bigger scales in smaller platforms.

2. Number of jets in spice and jet airways with normal/bigger capacities

 

[Brahmos_2]

1. Connectivty comes at a price. Said problems will be on bigger scales in smaller platforms.

2. Number of jets in spice and jet airways with normal/bigger capacities

Jet Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SpiceJet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sancho]

Indigo has great expansion plans for the future.Thats a different debate all together.

It was just an example where the Indian market offers requirements for an indigenous airliner, since the requirements on the lower level, like these turbo prob aircrafts are far lower and makes a completelly new developed RTA not useful.

BTW, is there any confirmation about the RTAs engine??

They didn't have a fixed design yet, let alone a decision about turbo prop or jet engines, while the last aims were even for both. That's why I said, they want too much from the start again and that's why they will fail again!

 

[sancho]

RTA initial plan - high wing, turbo prop, up to 70 passengers:

Later studies - high wing, turbo prop and/or jet engined, up to 70 passengers:

Last studies - high wing turbo prop and/or low wing jet engined, up to 100 passengers:

The dream got bigger and bigger, but certainly more unrealistic as well!

 

[ptltejas]

I think this is the RTA - Regional Transport Aircraft

HAL/NAL Regional Transport Aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

different than MTA - Medium Transport Aircraft

UAC/HAL Il-214 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/rta.pdf

i dont know how to paste pdf files