Indian Navy News & Discussions

[PARIKRAMA]

INS Delhi showing off it's PTA-53 quintuple torpedo tubes.

The PTA-53 is a 533mm Torpedo Tube used aboard the Project 15 Delhi Class and Project 61ME Rajput Class Destroyers of the Indian Navy. They are used for firing the SET-65E wake homing anti-surface torpedoes. In the near future these ships will be armed with the NSTL Varunastra.


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[mkb95]

INS Delhi showing off it's PTA-53 quintuple torpedo tubes.

The PTA-53 is a 533mm Torpedo Tube used aboard the Project 15 Delhi Class and Project 61ME Rajput Class Destroyers of the Indian Navy. They are used for firing the SET-65E wake homing anti-surface torpedoes. In the near future these ships will be armed with the NSTL Varunastra.


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does these ships carry spare ammunition like torpedo or missile for reload purposes?is it even possible to reload these things while on the sea?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

does these ships carry spare ammunition like torpedo or missile for reload purposes?is it even possible to reload these things while on the sea?

I dont think on deck fitted armaments can be reloaded out during mission.. They can be reloaded in ports surely if they are empty and port/dock has such armaments available for reload..

Spare ammunition onboard ship for such launchers will not be carried really..

Five 533mm PTA 533 quintuple torpedo tube launchers are fitted amidships. The launchers are of modular construction and can fire different types of heavyweight torpedoes such as wire guided or wake homing types. The Delhi Class destroyers are armed with the SET-65E; anti-submarine, active & passive homing torpedo to 8.1n miles; 15 km at 40 knots with a 205 kg warhead and the Type 53-65; passive wake homing torpedo to 10.3n miles; 19 km at 45 knots with a 305 kg warhead.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

does these ships carry spare ammunition like torpedo or missile for reload purposes?is it even possible to reload these things while on the sea?

Ammo for small arms, and ammo for Helicopters.
Explosives for RBU6000, mines and additional depth charges may be carried depending upon the mission profile.

The main gun , and close in weapon systems hold enough ammo.

I have read about kits which can be used to fire light weight torpedoes from 533mm torpedo tubes , may be extra torpedos may be carried... can't say for sure.

 

[GuardianRED]

I dont think on deck fitted armaments can be reloaded out during mission.. They can be reloaded in ports surely if they are empty and port/dock has such armaments available for reload..

Spare ammunition onboard ship for such launchers will not be carried really..

Five 533mm PTA 533 quintuple torpedo tube launchers are fitted amidships. The launchers are of modular construction and can fire different types of heavyweight torpedoes such as wire guided or wake homing types. The Delhi Class destroyers are armed with the SET-65E; anti-submarine, active & passive homing torpedo to 8.1n miles; 15 km at 40 knots with a 205 kg warhead and the Type 53-65; passive wake homing torpedo to 10.3n miles; 19 km at 45 knots with a 305 kg warhead.

Possible that replenish ships carry Torpedoes?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Possible that replenish ships carry Torpedoes?

IF we use wiki as source then

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_Navy_ships#Replenishment_ships

So these ships at best can carry fuel and stores (mostly replenishment of food items and small arms)

@mkb95 @Ankit Kumar 002
Replacement of ship torpedoes on sea is difficult for chiefly this reason below

So replacing used torpedoes in fixed or trainable form will need complete removal of the sealed tubes. And then checking to ensure IAC Mod C is showing all systems green and ready for usage. Even if the ship carries extra torpedoes in tubes, it will load the ship up and compromise on fuel, stores and other aspects..

Moreover these torpedoes are for defensive purpose along with mines and other ASW strategies for example the Sea Kings or P8Is to target it up with air launched torpedoes as well. So i dont think we will require too many replacements in the middle of the seas..

Moreover any rough sea should make any such stored torpedo to be fitted for usage extremely challenging and dangerous ploy.

Still better tag @Penguin - Sir you think INS Delhi carries extra HWT torpedoes and may replace them in the seas (say after firing , in middle of a mission)

Tagging @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @anant_s @ni8mare as well.

 

[MilSpec]

IF we use wiki as source then
View attachment 327264
View attachment 327265

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_Navy_ships#Replenishment_ships

So these ships at best can carry fuel and stores (mostly replenishment of food items and small arms)

@mkb95 @Ankit Kumar 002
Replacement of ship torpedoes on sea is difficult for chiefly this reason below

View attachment 327266


So replacing used torpedoes in fixed or trainable form will need complete removal of the sealed tubes. And then checking to ensure IAC Mod C is showing all systems green and ready for usage. Even if the ship carries extra torpedoes in tubes, it will load the ship up and compromise on fuel, stores and other aspects..

Moreover these torpedoes are for defensive purpose along with mines and other ASW strategies for example the Sea Kings or P8Is to target it up with air launched torpedoes as well. So i dont think we will require too many replacements in the middle of the seas..

Moreover any rough sea should make any such stored torpedo to be fitted for usage extremely challenging and dangerous ploy.

Still better tag @Penguin - Sir you think INS Delhi carries extra HWT torpedoes and may replace them in the seas (say after firing , in middle of a mission)

Tagging @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @anant_s @ni8mare as well.

Replacing heavy Weight Torpedoes is a b1tch, rigging anything heavy weight item on a ship in conflict zones is troublesome, And everything from winches to spreaderbars to pumps are points of failure in high stress environment. I highly doubt it would happen in naval conflict.

 

[Penguin]

Still better tag @Penguin - Sir you think INS Delhi carries extra HWT torpedoes and may replace them in the seas (say after firing , in middle of a mission)

The complex armament of the new ship could be called groundbreaking. For the first time in the history of the Soviet shipbuilding BOD got 2 LRK m-1 volna. Each anti-aircraft missile system represented the mill-PU dvuhbalocnuû 101, shop with 2-?? rotating drums on 8-600 missiles each and Yatagan. Artillery armament consisted of 2-(e) 76-mm paired tower installation artillery AK-726 (rate of fire of 90 rounds/min, maximum range 13 km, reach height-9 km, ammunition of each installation consisted of 2400 unitary shots). In addition, the ship was attended by 2-(e) fire control system sentry, a ship equipped with torpedo apparatus PTA-pâtitrubnym 53-61 to 57-53 torpedoes or SET-53 and had the Jet bombometa 2 RBU-1000 and RBU-6000 (ammunition 48 RSL-10 and 192 RSL-60 respectively). All ships of this project had developed radar equipment and hydroacoustics and excellent seaworthiness and manuverability.



Six ships were modified with the addition of improved electronics and four rear-firing SS-N-2c Styx missiles. Its armament includes 10 torpedoes, 32-36 SA-N-3 missiles and 4 SS-N-2C missiles. The hull was lengthened by approximately two meters, and a stern-mounted Variable Depth Sonar (VDS) installation and an improved hull-mounted sonar were also fitted.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/61.htm

This concerns the 'project 61' Kashin class destroyer aka Rajput class. It has a single quintuple tube 533mm torpedo launcher. As indicated, it carriers 10 torpedoes. That implies 1 full reload on board, and thus some magazine.

The most likely location of such a magazine would be on the same deck lever, immediately behind the launchtable. In Rajput/Kashin/Project 61 that would be below the rear mast that carries the rear SAM fire control radar. I would expect a similar arrangement in the P15 Delhi class, with the mag below the rear search radar mast (between the Barak 1 launchers). It likely that P15 carries at least the same number of reload torps as Project 61.

Since each torpedo would weight sometihing like 1,500–2,500 kg (depending on specific torpedo http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.php ), there may well be an assisted loading devices or even automatic loading. This was already employed in e.g. the pre-WW2 Hatsuhara class destroyers of the Japanese

"The later Hatsuharu class of 1931 further improved the torpedo armament by storing its reload torpedoes close at hand in the superstructure, allowing reloading within 15 minutes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer#Inter-war_.26_World_War_II

"Between the two funnels was the forward 61 centimetres (24 in) triple torpedo tube mount fitted on a low platform. Behind it "was a torpedo locker with its mechanical quick reload system (Kiryoku sōtenshiki jihatsu sōten sochi) for the three reserve torpedoes inside." To preserve lateral stability the aft funnel was offset to starboard while the torpedo mount was offset to port. The reload locker was also offset slightly to port and angled inboard to facilitate reloading. The middle torpedo mount was positioned behind the aft funnel on the centerline, but its reload locker was positioned identically to that of the forward mount. Superimposed to starboard and overlapping the middle mount was the rear triple torpedo mount positioned on the rear deckhouse. Immediately behind the mount was its locker positioned on the centerline, but angled slightly to the right so that its mount only had to traverse slightly to align with the locker and begin reloading."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsuharu-class_destroyer

Installation as fitted port and starboard amidship in Talwar/project 11356

The magazine for any reload would likely be below the rear pair of Orekh fire control radars, or between the launchers (with some open space behind it)

This is what you have a pair of in P15A: fixed twin tubes.

As you can see, there are rails of sorts behind each launcher pair. I suspect reloads are moved out from mag(s) into the open transversely and then loaded into the tubes (rather than longitudinally). I see no other way to reloading on these ships.

With Russian 533mm torps having a typical length of 7.5-8.0m and the ship having a beam of 17.6m, it should just be possible (17.6/2=8.8m)

 

[Penguin]

Lightweight torps (324mm etc) are 'easily' transferred at sea from replenisher to combat ship. Heavy 533mm torps should also be possible, but more difficult (longer, heavier)

Oldie: 6+m, 2000+ kg Sea Slug missile being transferred at sea.

Difficulty would be handling a 2 ton 7,5-8m torpedo on deck at sea. Some cranes nearby would help. See e.g. P15/P15A: crane(s) near RIB(s). Project 61 has cranes against the stacks.

 

[GuardianRED]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/61.htm

This concerns the 'project 61' Kashin class destroyer aka Rajput class. It has a single quintuple tube 533mm torpedo launcher. As indicated, it carriers 10 torpedoes. That implies 1 full reload on board, and thus some magazine.

The most likely location of such a magazine would be on the same deck lever, immediately behind the launchtable. In Rajput/Kashin/Project 61 that would be below the rear mast that carries the rear SAM fire control radar. I would expect a similar arrangement in the P15 Delhi class, with the mag below the rear search radar mast (between the Barak 1 launchers). It likely that P15 carries at least the same number of reload torps as Project 61.

Since each torpedo would weight sometihing like 1,500–2,500 kg (depending on specific torpedo http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.php ), there may well be an assisted loading devices or even automatic loading. This was already employed in e.g. the pre-WW2 Hatsuhara class destroyers of the Japanese

"The later Hatsuharu class of 1931 further improved the torpedo armament by storing its reload torpedoes close at hand in the superstructure, allowing reloading within 15 minutes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer#Inter-war_.26_World_War_II

"Between the two funnels was the forward 61 centimetres (24 in) triple torpedo tube mount fitted on a low platform. Behind it "was a torpedo locker with its mechanical quick reload system (Kiryoku sōtenshiki jihatsu sōten sochi) for the three reserve torpedoes inside." To preserve lateral stability the aft funnel was offset to starboard while the torpedo mount was offset to port. The reload locker was also offset slightly to port and angled inboard to facilitate reloading. The middle torpedo mount was positioned behind the aft funnel on the centerline, but its reload locker was positioned identically to that of the forward mount. Superimposed to starboard and overlapping the middle mount was the rear triple torpedo mount positioned on the rear deckhouse. Immediately behind the mount was its locker positioned on the centerline, but angled slightly to the right so that its mount only had to traverse slightly to align with the locker and begin reloading."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsuharu-class_destroyer

Installation as fitted port and starboard amidship in Talwar/project 11356

The magazine for any reload would likely be below the rear pair of Orekh fire control radars, or between the launchers (with some open space behind it)



This is what you have a pair of in P15A: fixed twin tubes.




As you can see, there are rails of sorts behind each launcher pair. I suspect reloads are moved out from mag(s) into the open transversely and then loaded into the tubes (rather than longitudinally). I see no other way to reloading on these ships.

With Russian 533mm torps having a typical length of 7.5-8.0m and the ship having a beam of 17.6m, it should just be possible (17.6/2=8.8m)

Lightweight torps (324mm etc) are 'easily' transferred at sea from replenisher to combat ship. Heavy 533mm torps should also be possible, but more difficult (longer, heavier)




Oldie: 6+m, 2000+ kg Sea Slug missile being transferred at sea.


Difficulty would be handling a 2 ton 7,5-8m torpedo on deck at sea. Some cranes nearby would help. See e.g. P15/P15A: crane(s) near RIB(s). Project 61 has cranes against the stacks.

Remember seeing a pic like this! .... So we can say its a Possibility !

 

[Penguin]

Sea Dart RAS, D95 HMS Manchester, Royal Navy, Mediterranean, 21 April 1988. Weight 550 kg, Length 4.4 m.
https://defence.pk/threads/exclusiv...-with-indian-navy.323446/page-10#post-5919918

Talos missile (without booster stage) in USN. Special gear was required for transfer at sea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-8_Talos
http://www.okieboat.com/Talos miscellaneous.html

How it is done today in USN
http://www.tpub.com/gunners/50.htm

[Edit: ps. there still is the issue of handling the load on deck of the receiving ship > not easy with a big 8m, 2 ton torpedo in cramped space]

Some more on torpedo reloading
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-12-J.html

 

[GuardianRED]

Sea Dart RAS, D95 HMS Manchester, Royal Navy, Mediterranean, 21 April 1988. Weight 550 kg, Length 4.4 m.
https://defence.pk/threads/exclusiv...-with-indian-navy.323446/page-10#post-5919918

Talos missile (without booster stage) in USN. Special gear was required for transfer at sea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-8_Talos
http://www.okieboat.com/Talos miscellaneous.html

How it is done today in USN
http://www.tpub.com/gunners/50.htm

[Edit: ps. there still is the issue of handling the load on deck of the receiving ship > not easy with a big 8m, 2 ton torpedo in cramped space]

Some more on torpedo reloading
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-12-J.html

That answers alot

Also from the previous thread

https://defence.pk/threads/exclusiv...ata-destroyer-with-indian-navy.323446/page-13

Saw heated discussion on the loading of the VLS!. NOW we know that the Barak 1 is installed in the INS Vikramaditiya. Are we any clearer on the Missile Qty on INS Kolkata and how is loading done ?

 

[cloud_9]

watch the right landing gear.its wobbling.
@PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer @Abingdonboy
is it something to be concerned about?or is it normal for a carrier jet to do this?

That's probably because of the free end of the landing gear is way too long and the lateral forces must have exceeded the threshold where it starts vibrating and as the hydraulic actuators absorb the impact it dies down. Structurally not a good design but it won't fail because it's all about how often you breach that threshold and hopefully they designed it for a few beatings..

Commercial planes go through this with crosswinds and that when you go all jello in your seats while landing.

 

[Penguin]

Saw heated discussion on the loading of the VLS!. NOW we know that the Barak 1 is installed in the INS Vikramaditiya. Are we any clearer on the Missile Qty on INS Kolkata and how is loading done ?

It has what is in the VLS cells. When that load is expended, it is back to port, or alongsde a base ship in some sheltered bay for reloading. That's it. So, at present, 2x8 cells for Brahmos/Club and 4x8 cell for Barak-8

 

[mkb95]