Indian muslim :Javed Akhtar's India & Pakistan

[Gandhi G in da house]

Your link does not even work and goes to show you the prevalent mentality of how your so called writers might have twisted things to suit their liking.

I could reference countless links here which shows how well Indians have been treated in Pakistan to clear your misconceptions but your point of view will always remain fixated upon negativity.

I never studies Indo-Pakistani wars or any such nonsense either, where do you people get all this nonsense. Most of you sit on Pakistani websites spewing garbage on a daily basis whereas most of us do not even visit Indian counterparts let alone discuss anything about them.

Sick.

I never said all Pakistanis think like that , i just gave an example .

I find it a little funny that when salman taseer gave his view about India you take it as fact but when some Indian author gave his view about Pakistan you say he has twisted things . Not a very objective way of looking at things.

 

[nForce]

I think this thread has overlived its purpose...Now there cant be anything else but trolling here...

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Your link does not even work and goes to show you the prevalent mentality of how your so called writers might have twisted things to suit their liking.

I could reference countless links here which shows how well Indians have been treated in Pakistan to clear your misconceptions but your point of view will always remain fixated upon negativity.

I never studies Indo-Pakistani wars or any such nonsense either, where do you people get all this nonsense. Most of you sit on Pakistani websites spewing garbage on a daily basis whereas most of us do not even visit Indian counterparts let alone discuss anything about them.

Sick.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/74221-curriculum-hate-pakistani-schools.html

A thread atarted by a Pakistani member and article written by a Pakistani .

There is more evidence on the net including youtube videos from Pakistan . I am too lazy to look all of it up . Sir i atleast expect you to accept there is a problem and try to change it rather than escape it .

Stuff about Pakistani textbooks and what they teach is all over the net . Maybe the syllabus was changed after you passed out of school.

Another one from Pakistan itself ,

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0404/61.html

from the article,

Dr AH Nayyar said that when there was no argument against the truth it was usual in Pakistan to make accusations and level charges. He said that there was no doubt that history was being twisted around in the textbooks. He gave the example of one primary school textbook which declared that the Muslims were massacred and their women raped by Hindus and Sikhs as they crossed over to Pakistan from India. He said the book declared that Sikhs and Hindus were allowed to go to India in safety by Muslims. He gave another example of brainwashing when he said that a textbook declared that in the 1965 war, which started with an invasion by India, Pakistan had conquered Indian territory but when India felt that it was about to be vanquished it went to the Soviet Union and begged for help. The upshot was that Pakistan returned the captured Indian territory.

Another one from Pakistan in much more detail about Pakistani textbooks compared with Indian ones .I am sure you would like to go through it .

http://criterionpk.com/2011/02/public-education-and-the-indo-pak-conflict-2/

 

[Vinod2070]

Calcutta, Delhi, Mumbai etc were developed and the region that India was given had considerable industrialized parts that were non-existent in Pakistan.

The area that Pakistan got had two textile factories and one cement factory, all the rest was in India.

Well, the partition happened on religious basis and you got what you got on the basis of that delineation.

Whom to blame for something that was demanded by you?

You had developed cities in Karachi and Lahore and India having 3 times more population (if not more) and Hindus having made more efforts in industry and education before partition would mean there would be a small advantage with India.

It\\\\\\\'s not as if India was industrialized when we got independence.

Mass poverty, illiteracy and other such social indicators are a different matter entirely, lets leave them for now.

India got the better deal from the partition and not to mention how it conned Pakistan out of areas with their double play.

Now this particular thingy is better avoided here. We can discuss about Pakistani duplicity here as well. But in a separate thread.

It is large enough and there are a number of BMW\\\\\\\'s and Land Cruisers going up and down the road every minute.

Of course not everyone has them but a sizable amount and Pakistani\\\\\\\'s turned a blind eye towards those who did not have anything.

Take for example my family, I belong to a family who traditionally were a part of the military or civilian institutions from the days of British India. Some members were rich but they did not share their wealth and my Grandfather made himself, he reached a high position in GoP through sheer hard work and he was an incorruptible man. His counterparts and even his Juniors were able to buy BMW\\\\\\\'s and Land cruisers because of their corrupt ways, my Grandfather did not have a car in his life time as he only had enough money to feed his large family and pay for their education.

However as my father, uncles and aunts grew up, they were able to attain respectable levels in their professions making us quite wealthy (middle class/upper middle class) from the late 70\\\\\\\'s and onwards. My father moved from the military to the civilian institute and he did not get involved in anything corrupt, he was in a position where he could bring in a few lakhs each week but he gave up his position and reported his superiors. This led to his demotion and end of his career, same thing happened to all of my other uncles and aunts.

So collectively, my family was able to reach a very well off level through hard work and years of dedication. Had they been corrupt, they would have been able to achieve our collective wealth individually and much faster. We were also offered vast land holdings in Sindh by Hindu\\\\\\\'s who were leaving for India during partition but my family refused thinking that these land holdings will go to the government. Unfortunately some known feudal scums took over these land holdings.

The system and society finally led to the sudden fall of my family from the power we had only because of our religious beliefs and incorruptible outlook.

Many other families like us were able to rise up and become rich, some through hard work, some through corruption, some through luck.

The upper middle class are able to afford these cars to this day, I know a number of people who you would categorize as being the middle class of Pakistan and they are able to buy such cars.

Collectively as a family you can, similarly with your savings and good investments, you can achieve a lot.

No, it was better than that, the 0.5% is ultra rich, billionaires racing sports cars in our cities, buying properties abroad and cutting deals with the global elite.

Call and ask them, once in the 90\\\\\\\'s, the Taliban were selling brand new Land Cruisers for 5 to 10 Laks, many people got them FATA where they were being sold.

Your family story is pretty interesting.

As I said earlier, you are talking about a few thousand people at the most. I can agree that may be those few thousands were indulging in more overt display of their wealth while Indian rich were not that ostentatious earlier (now many of them are, to a sickening level like that billion dollar Ambani house). Extrapolating them to the whole country is disingenuous and I have seen many people do that, both Indians and Pakistanis.

Like this piece by Vir Sanghavi. I found it very shallow for the same reasons, trying to extrapolate a very tiny minority to a country of hundreds of millions.

What Devoured Glamorous Pakistan

From whatever I have read, there couldn\\\\\\\'t have been more than a few thousand people who could afford those kind of luxury cars and the vast majority of them would be feudal or corrupt (as you mentioned yourself).

The many that you mention is a tiny fraction of the population that was lucky enough to get those kind of opportunities. Only very very few (a handful) would be lucky as you put it.

I sure missed them.

The population in India is much higher and your cities are densely populated.

No.

OK, here is what I got for car sales in Pakistan.

Dunya News: Business:-More than 1 lakh cars sold in 10 months

According to statistics, a total of 109,900 cars have been sold in the first 10 months of the current fiscal year. In April alone, 11,427 cars were assembled while 12,172 cars were sold.

This is 2010-2011 data.

Delhi sells more than 20,000 cars per month.

Mahindra First Choice Wheels opens a multi-brand SUPERSTORE in Delhi

India also has a higher car and motor vehicle density than Pakistan.

Motor vehicles statistics - countries compared worldwide - NationMaster

It can be much higher, the business and tradesman that we have generate a lot of money.

We have many cars, that is for sure.

We also have very high tax brackets for cars though.

Make that 10s of thousands or even 100\\\\\\\'s of thousands.

Officially, what about the unofficial list.

Similarly compare our population and you might get an answer, we do not have proper mechanisms for statistics, calculations and what not.

You can\\\\\\\'t have to many undercover car sales. We have to rely on public data for any meaningful discussion.

Also, most of the 100,000 cars sold would be the low end Suzuki Mehrans as they own 53% of the Pakistani market.

Well you are wrong on these 22 families, they were not land holding families but industrialists who cornered the industrial development of Pakistan.

Pakistan\\\\\\\' Economic Saga

Once again, Industrialists, not feudal\\\\\\\'s, feudal lords are a different matter and equally as rich, very odd that you thought these 22 families were land owners.

Proves that you did not know much about Pakistan.

That\'s why I put that 22 with a question mark. Including the feudals the family count would possibly double.

PS: My browser is putting all these extra \"\\\" for some reason.

 

[T-Faz]

I never said all Pakistanis think like that , i just gave an example .

I find it a little funny that when salman taseer gave his view about India you take it as fact but when some Indian author gave his view about Pakistan you say he has twisted things . Not a very objective way of looking at things.

It was Taseer's view being repeated by an Indian journalist, he did not say it for the whole world to hear. An Indian journalist used his opinion to paint the outside view of his nation and he agreed with his notion.

What you are using is an Indian source with an Indian journalist that can not be verified, I can wrote anything too but that does not mean its true or it was exactly as it happened. However if I were to quote you, then that adds credibility and allows me to counter that argument telling the reader that things have changed.

 

[T-Faz]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/74221-curriculum-hate-pakistani-schools.html

A thread atarted by a Pakistani member and article written by a Pakistani .

There is more evidence on the net including youtube videos from Pakistan . I am too lazy to look all of it up . Sir i atleast expect you to accept there is a problem and try to change it rather than escape it .

Stuff about Pakistani textbooks and what they teach is all over the net . Maybe the syllabus was changed after you passed out of school.

Another one from Pakistan itself ,

Debate on textbooks, Pakistani style

Another one from Pakistan in much more detail about Pakistani textbooks compared with Indian ones .I am sure you would like to go through it .

Public Education and the Indo-Pak Conflict | Criterion Pakistan

Your arguments are just amazing, all you want to do is score some points and not address the issues or provide any solution.

I have never stated that there aren't any problems and I have not refuted anything apart from the very pathetic statement that Aakash made which was his own invention.

You will just continue to find and post these references wasting my time, why don't you let me deal with these problems and you worry about your own.

The best thing though is that our very own media highlights our problems openly and we provide solutions to them, yours on the other hand has ulterior and sensational motives.

 

[Zarvan]

Muslims all over the world love each other but yes they are some traitors like Fareed Zakria and Javed Akhtar who are always thinking how to make their kafir masters happy

 

[T-Faz]

Well, the partition happened on religious basis and you got what you got on the basis of that delineation.

Whom to blame for something that was demanded by you?

Am I complaining, all I stated was that you got a better deal and we made everything ourself.

You had developed cities in Karachi and Lahore and India having 3 times more population (if not more) and Hindus having made more efforts in industry and education before partition would mean there would be a small advantage with India.

Karachi was a small town which was overcrowded and dirty, Lahore was also restricted and they had to be developed further after partition, you can read up on them.

We had a sudden influx of immigrants to certain areas and it was difficult to cope with this, people lived in temporary housing for a long period after they moved to Pakistan.

It\\\\\\\'s not as if India was industrialized when we got independence.

It had the industrialized parts, not the entire nation.

Now this particular thingy is better avoided here. We can discuss about Pakistani duplicity here as well. But in a separate thread.

Sure but the original deal was that we forget Mahudabad and the other place in return for plebiscite in Kashmir and Hyderabad.

We did what was required on our part and you did not do what was required on your part.

Your family story is pretty interesting.

As I said earlier, you are talking about a few thousand people at the most. I can agree that may be those few thousands were indulging in more overt display of their wealth while Indian rich were not that ostentatious earlier (now many of them are, to a sickening level like that billion dollar Ambani house). Extrapolating them to the whole country is disingenuous and I have seen many people do that, both Indians and Pakistanis.

There were more than enough who made money and there are exceptions because this region always had some of the richest people in the world.

Like this piece by Vir Sanghavi. I found it very shallow for the same reasons, trying to extrapolate a very tiny minority to a country of hundreds of millions.

What Devoured Glamorous Pakistan

Its about image based on a certain group that is most vocal and visible, it used to be glamorous intellectuals before, its mullahs now.

From whatever I have read, there couldn\\\\\\\'t have been more than a few thousand people who could afford those kind of luxury cars and the vast majority of them would be feudal or corrupt (as you mentioned yourself).

No, a lot of good people made money too but you know the levels of corruption here, that meant a lot of BMW's.

You do know that Ministers and their favored people get free BMW's, so do the Generals.

The many that you mention is a tiny fraction of the population that was lucky enough to get those kind of opportunities. Only very very few (a handful) would be lucky as you put it.

I would agree with you as I am only describing the social circle I moved in.

OK, here is what I got for car sales in Pakistan.

Dunya News: Business:-More than 1 lakh cars sold in 10 months

According to statistics, a total of 109,900 cars have been sold in the first 10 months of the current fiscal year. In April alone, 11,427 cars were assembled while 12,172 cars were sold.

This is 2010-2011 data.

Delhi sells more than 20,000 cars per month.

Mahindra First Choice Wheels opens a multi-brand SUPERSTORE in Delhi

India also has a higher car and motor vehicle density than Pakistan.

Motor vehicles statistics - countries compared worldwide - NationMaster

You can\\\\\\\'t have to many undercover car sales. We have to rely on public data for any meaningful discussion.

Also, most of the 100,000 cars sold would be the low end Suzuki Mehrans as they own 53% of the Pakistani market.

Like I said, the data available in Pakistan is limited and cannot be used, a lot of people don't pay taxes and they do not register their companies for this purpose.

You know the situation in our country and such statistical data is irrelevant, I know a number of Car Dealers locally who do not pay taxes or register their sales properly. These people only sell Escalades, BMW's, Mercedes and what not, they have political connections too.

That\'s why I put that 22 with a question mark. Including the feudals the family count would possibly double.

PS: My browser is putting all these extra \"\\\" for some reason.

It become 42 families by the 1970's until the nationalization kicked in.

This does not include the feudals and these families have various members who are independent and run their business by themselves.

Take the Lakhani's for example, their family members are running independent ventures under one brand.

Same goes for Saigols and the Mansha's.

 

[Manas]

Like I said, the data available in Pakistan is limited and cannot be used, a lot of people don't pay taxes and they do not register their companies for this purpose.

You know the situation in our country and such statistical data is irrelevant, I know a number of Car Dealers locally who do not pay taxes or register their sales properly. These people only sell Escalades, BMW's, Mercedes and what not, they have political connections too

@ T-Faz

You are explanations are amusing .

Number of of four wheelers can be easily gauzed from the Registration database with the transport department since every motor vehicle has to carry registration number on its licence plate . For that car dealer has to sent the information of a new car sold ,to the transport department .

Don't say they ply cars without number plates on them in Pakistani cities ??

 

[T-Faz]

@ T-Faz

You are explanations are amusing .

Number of of four wheelers can be easily gauzed from the Registration database with the transport department since every motor vehicle has to carry registration number on its licence plate . For that car dealer has to sent the information of a new car sold ,to the transport department .

Don't say they ply cars without number plates on them in Pakistani cities ??

Yea I know and this is why political connections come in handy, the transport department will receive the information but omit number from those dealers that have connections so that they are not taxed.

So the final figure will reflect those vehicles which have been registered and taxed, not those which have not been taxed.

Though the system is getting better, mass scale corruption exists and there are loop holes in the system.

I know from inside sources.

 

[Black Widow]

It is sad that the Indian administration has to build up anti-Pakistan sentiments in its Muslim population, because of a fear of them shifting their loyalties to Pakistan. There are constant accusations levied against Indian Muslims of being loyal towards Pakistan & not India.

There was a specific question and specific answer.. As Host was pakistani , Pakistan was in the discussion..

 

[toxic_pus]

Without going into the details, the reason why India Inc. couldn't buy high end foreign cars pre 91, was primarily because of forex cap. A person was allowed to use only a limited amount of forex which was grossly inadequate to buy a car like BMW etc. For high expenditure, meant for personal luxuries, special permission had to be taken. Even then, the import duty on foreign cars used to be extremely high. Just to get it on Indian road the cost would be upwards of 500% of the actual price. During Indira Gandhi's time it used to be around 1000% times the actual price. Wastage of foreign exchange was thus discouraged and rightly so.

Unlike Pakistan, which used to get petroleum and later crude from their Arab friends, at heavy discount and on deferred payment system and using it's own currency (so far as I recall), India never had a sugar daddy. India had to pay those bills with hard earned foreign exchange. And that constituted the bulk of forex expenditure. And yes, no discount for India. Every single dollar mattered. Even today, when India is flush with forex, foreign cars still attract heavy custom duty. (Sachin Tendulkar didn't ask of a tax waiver for his BMW(?) not for no reason)

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Your arguments are just amazing, all you want to do is score some points and not address the issues or provide any solution.

I have never stated that there aren't any problems and I have not refuted anything apart from the very pathetic statement that Aakash made which was his own invention.

You will just continue to find and post these references wasting my time, why don't you let me deal with these problems and you worry about your own.

The best thing though is that our very own media highlights our problems openly and we provide solutions to them, yours on the other hand has ulterior and sensational motives.

I only posted these because you denied that Pakistani education system talked about Indo-Pak wars .

 

[KSRaj]

It was started in 1866 in Deoband, UP; part of present day India.

Deoband was started in India. So was the concept of Pakistan! What's your point?

Dont everyone pick and choose what one thinks is good and right? There is no discrimination against Ahmadis in India like the one seen in Pakistan, even though the one's who have supposedly claimed Ahmadis as non-muslims, the Deoband, is an Indian organistion.
What does this tell about Pakistan!

 

[ramu]

Forget Deoband, the history of Pakistan before it was even named as Pakistan was inside India. It is so funny, people try to nurture a thought as though Pakistan was an Island for the whole mankind. Anyways, let us get back to how Javed A smacked Pakistan for what it stands for today.