Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[ganimi kawa]

Never knew that a french American Lady would be interested in a debate about what fighter India should buy for its Airforce

Considering the facts that fighter jets are primarily Boyz toys ,not something to interest a lady unless she is US Secretary of State

Lol ! You are asking for trouble,mate!

I have an elder sister in IAF and if I'm to say something like " fighter jets are primarily Boyz toys " to her face she will bite my head off ( best case scenario )!

 

[Archie]

Lol ! You are asking for trouble,mate!

I have an elder sister in IAF and if I'm to say something like " fighter jets are primarily Boyz toys " to her face she will bite my head off ( best case scenario )!

LOL, is that possible
I have a friend who is a helicopter Pilot , but his girlfriend is terrified of flying with him

 

[dbc]

Assuming everything you said is correct, how much of an impact do you foresee of US sanctions on eurocanards in IAF ? ( with respect to economical , operational , doctrinal aspects ). Just a rough estimate,please.

P.S. will you please answer my question from post no. 741 ?

Lets first acknowledge that the French have denied spares in the past -they did it to Israel and South Africa. Second, sanctions aren't as effective as many believe. Needed spares can always be obtained via alternate means as both India and Pakistan have done in the past. India via Israel and Pakistan via Turkey and Arab states. I believe Indian authorities aren't as concerned about the threat of sanctions as some PDF members appear to be.

IMHO the order of impact is likely to be F-18, Gripen, Typhoon, Rafale / F-16 , Mig-35 ; F-18 is likely to experience the most and Rafale / F-16 the least.

 

[Iggy]

Seems like I started discussion about DBC in this thread now all of a sudden air force become secondary

 

[sancho]

I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to convince you,

The problem is not that you want to convince me, but that you claim mainy wrong things (Martin Baker, or Thales being US, SPECTRA beeing US origin, sanctioned mirage spares...) and you keep on talking about sanctions, or bringing up C17, although I never said anything about it. So how should I take your points for real, if your facts are wrong?

lets agree to disagree and move on.

At least we agree on this!

 

[ganimi kawa]

Lets first acknowledge that the French have denied spares in the past -they did it to Israel and South Africa.

I agree. However, our experience with french so far has been excellent ( N-test embargo and all ). I'm not saying that the french would never ever sanction us but the probability is low.

Second, sanctions aren't as effective as many believe. Needed spares can always be obtained via alternate means as both India and Pakistan have done in the past. India via Israel and Pakistan via Turkey and Arab states. I believe Indian authorities aren't as concerned about the threat of sanctions as some PDF members appear to be.

Again I agree, sanctions against india will be much more harder to enforce now than in the 90's ( though this does not apply to f-18 ). The confidance of GoI is reflected in deals like P 8i. However they can still be a major headache, especially if augmented by accords like CISMOA and there lies the crux of our opposition to US jets!

IMHO the order of impact is likely to be F-18, Gripen, Typhoon, Rafale / F-16 , Mig-35 ; F-18 is likely to experience the most and Rafale / F-16 the least.

I just have a few doubts about F 16 in this rankings! Can the worldwide distribution of this plane can provide india with such a protection against sanctions? Especially when LM people are claiming that F16 In will be a " totally different jet " from F16s anywhere else in the world.

 

[Hulk]

@Archie
DBC is highly respectable and knowledgeable girl, unless you have very high knowledge on planes I advice not to mess with her not many can handle her. I love her post never miss reading it.

 

[dbc]

I just have a few doubts about F 16 in this rankings! Can the worldwide distribution of this plane can provide india with such a protection against sanctions? Especially when LM people are claiming that F16 In will be a " totally different jet " from F16s anywhere else in the world.

With a few exceptions you should be able to source these parts via Singapore or Israel or any allied F-16 operator. I have data on failure/replacement rates on various components typically Avionics especially AESA modules have a MTBF of 1500 hrs and outlast the airframe parts prone to wear and tear due to use or abuse is mainly engine components. My understanding is that India demands 100% local production via HAL or locally established entities the risk is then limited to machining tools and raw materials required for production. Consumables such as fuel additives or oil can be sourced locally. Again, I'm not making a case for the F-16 or F-18. I am fully aware that these aircrafts may or may not suit India's specific needs while the Rafale and Typhoon proposition looks good on paper it does comes with its own unique set of issues. The question for the IAF is does it want to hit the ground running with the new acquisition or is it willing to invest time and money to mature the Rafale or Typhoon.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Sanctions have to approved by Congress, India has enough friends in Congress to prevent such from occurring. Unless India acts against our core interests I do not foresee sanctions against India.

While 'risk mitigation' is important both Dassault and EADS do not have enough orders to make all components locally without dramatically increasing price. Why else will they source 60% of the parts for A330 and 51% parts for A380 from US firms?

As for me I just don't like canards, there isn't any point in going into details but most pilots will know why...

Question: Why do you think its not a good idea to have canards?

I was having this discussion with a ex PAF pilot but could not get a definite answer regarding this topic. I am aware that it can increase the RCS of an aircraft but with the advantages that are offered, you could make the case that the pros outweigh the cons.

Canards enable the pilot to stall his/her plane without bleeding much energy. The PAF F16B pilot whom shot down the IAF Heron drone in 2002 literally had to stall his plane to get a lock due to the drones low speed, he bled a lot of energy while shooting down that drone so canards would be quite helpful in this scenario. They could also be used as brakes to pitch the aircraft up or down, it definitely improves the maneuverability and agility of the plane. During a hard turn, the canards could provide additional energy to the plane giving the pilot an advantage over the enemy plane. Anyways, looking forward to your reply.

P.S. I agree, DBC is a very informed and knowledgable poster . I dont know much about Aviation myself; but always look forward to reading her posts along with Gambits, Chogy, Blain, Muradk, Taimi, Prateek, Sancho and other senior members to educate myself on this field.

 

[ganimi kawa]

I don't know the pilot's point of view, but from aeronautical p.o.v. few problems associated with canards apart from the r.c.s. are

1.The wing additional load distribution is distorted by the canard wake.

2.Possible deep-stall problem-especially with tractor canard configuration. Accident can occur if canard stall does not occur before wing stall.
( Normally , at high angle of attack , the canard stalls before the wing bringing the nose down and avoiding stalling of the main wing!)

3.Difficult to apply flaps to the wing - Deploying flaps causes a large nose-down pitching moment, but in a conventional aeroplane this effect is considerably reduced by the increased downwash on the tailplane which produces a restoring nose-up pitching moment. With a canard design there is no tailplane to alleviate this effect.

4.Most canard designs feature a small canard surface operating at a high lift coefficient (CL), while the main wing, although much larger, operates at a much smaller CL and never achieves its full lift potential. As the wing cannot achieve it's maximum lift potential compounded by difficulty of using flaps, takeoff and landing distances and speeds are often higher than for similar conventional airplanes.
Trying to increase CL max will cause huge increase in induced drag!

5. Fuel CoG trails the aircraft CoG by a greater magnitude than conventional designs resulting into a large c.g. range. May necessesitate shifting of fuel elsewhere.


6. With canards, there is very little room for error. A little mistake here or there and you end up with a bad aeronautical design..

There are solutions to these problems ,but it's a trade off . ( which is true for every aeronautical design!)


Seniors, please contribute on this topic!

 

[dbc]

Question: Why do you think its not a good idea to have canards?

I was having this discussion with a ex PAF pilot but could not get a definite answer regarding this topic. I am aware that it can increase the RCS of an aircraft but with the advantages that are offered, you could make the case that the pros outweigh the cons.

Canards enable the pilot to stall his/her plane without bleeding much energy. The PAF F16B pilot whom shot down the IAF Heron drone in 2002 literally had to stall his plane to get a lock due to the drones low speed, he bled a lot of energy while shooting down that drone so canards would be quite helpful in this scenario. They could also be used as brakes to pitch the aircraft up or down, it definitely improves the maneuverability and agility of the plane. During a hard turn, the canards could provide additional energy to the plane giving the pilot an advantage over the enemy plane. Anyways, looking forward to your reply.

P.S. I agree, DBC is a very informed and knowledgable poster . I dont know much about Aviation myself; but always look forward to reading her posts along with Gambits, Chogy, Blain, Muradk, Taimi, Prateek, Sancho and other senior members to educate myself on this field.

I promise to answer your question in greater detail in a way that can be understood by a casual reader. The F-16 and the Rafale are both capable of higher angle of attack(AoA) than is currently limited by the FLCS for safety of the pilot and aircraft. If you remember Gambit raised a very valid concern about maneuverability - do you want the pilot to focus his/her attention on flying or on tactics and combat?

While canard foreplane tip vortices cause favorable upwash/downwash for high angle of attack if uninhibited by the flight control computer the pilot could make a life threatening mistake in the heat of battle. Given a choice between canards and 2-D TV I'd choose the latter 2-D TV on a powerful engine will allow me to power myself out of a boo boo.

The IAF Heron does not have canard, I guess the PAF pilot did not want to waste a missile on a drone and switched to gun. But found it difficult to line up a shot due to low speed of the drone. This is commonly observed in a jet vs propeller guns engagement.

 

[ganimi kawa]

do you want the pilot to focus his/her attention on flying or on tactics and combat?

This is one of the reasons why Su 30 mki has a weapon system officer ( WSO ) and a pilot.

if uninhibited by the flight control computer the pilot could make a life threatening mistake in the heat of battle. Given a choice between canards and 2-D TV I'd choose the latter 2-D TV on a powerful engine will allow me to power myself out of a boo boo.

Pilot not inhibited by the FCS, why would that happen ? It defeats the very purpose of having a flight computer. Overriding the FCS is a major decision and if one is careless after this decision that is poor training whether in heat of the battle or not .

2D TVC is great and Su 30 mki does have that advantage of having both canards and TVC, and IAF pilots love this machine with canards.


Notorius eagle, F-16 is not optimized for drone hunting. So it would have to make few adjustments. However, canard or no canard ; TVC or no TVC , it can still get the job done ( for most of the drones today ) if the drone is unprotected.

 

[sudhir007]

IAF to buy 42 more Su-30s

The Indian Air Force has set the ball rolling for buying 42 more Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters from Russia to upgrade its thinning combat fleet at a cost of more than R20,107 crore. The proposal, a repeat order from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, will soon be placed before the Cabinet Committee on

Security (CCS) for approval.

Tiding over depleting force levels is crucial for the IAF. Its existing 32 fighter squadrons are much below the sanctioned 39 and half. The squadron strength is projected to plunge to around 27 during 2012-2017.

The new fighters would be delivered during 2014-2018, Defence Minister A K Antony told Lok Sabha on Monday. The latest order will be in addition to the 230 Su-30 fighters already contracted from Russia. The IAF currently operates five Su-30 squadrons (around 100 fighters) — three based in Pune and the remaining two in Bareilly.

Plans are afoot to deploy two extra squadrons each in Punjab and the Northeast. A Su-30 can carry eight tonnes of armament including nuclear bombs.

The IAF is beefing up its airbases and inducting modern aircraft in the Northeast to keep pace with Chinese military in the Tibet Autonomous Region.

It is also monitoring the modernisation of the Pakistan Air force (PAF), which has been striving hard to bridge the capability gap with the IAF. The PAF is expanding its fighter fleet by inducting US-supplied F-16 fighters and JF-17 Thunder jets, developed jointly with China.

 

[sudhir007]

IAF’s Cheetah choppers evacuate 90 people in Ladakh

In a daring rescue effort in ravaged Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir, six Cheetah helicopters of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Monday did over 60 sorties in very difficult conditions to a remote village badly hit in Friday’s massive cloudburst and evacuated 90 people, including many foreign tourists, an official said.

The stranded people were evacuated from Skyu in the Zanskar Valley, an IAF official said.

About 130 trekkers, mostly foreigners from 12 different countries, and a few Indian porters, were stranded at Skyu.

The village could be reached only through Cheetah helicopters as the flight path was narrow passing through a narrow valley which the large rotor Mi-17 helicopters could not have negotiated.

But even the flight of the Cheetahs was not easy, the official said.

‘With touchdowns not feasible at Skyu at the location that had virtually transformed into a vast dissolving island, the daring rescue efforts by the IAF were all carried out by the pilots at low hover,’ he said.

The official said it was ‘a challenging flight manoeuvre of keeping the aircraft stationary, perilously close to the ground even as passengers boarded the flight’.

Each Cheetah helicopter can only take in a maximum of three passengers on board at a time

Three IL-76 sorties also airlifted two excavators and a 22-tonne Bulldozer apart from six-tonne load of BSNL equipment and 10-tonnne load of the Indian Army’s communication equipment including cables from Chandigarh

Six AN-32 also flew air maintenance sorties from Chandigarh replenishing stocks and relief materials for the army in the region. IAF aircraft earlier on Sunday had already airlifted medical equipment, medicines and para-medical personnel to Leh from New Delhi and Chandigarh.

The Indian Army, the IAF and paramilitary personnel have been deployed to carry out the rescue operations and provide relief to the people in Ladakh following the devastation caused by a sudden cloudburst that triggered flash floods and mudslides Friday, leaving 145 people dead.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

IAF to buy 42 more Su-30s

The Indian Air Force has set the ball rolling for buying 42 more Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters from Russia to upgrade its thinning combat fleet at a cost of more than R20,107 crore. The proposal, a repeat order from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, will soon be placed before the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for approval.

Tiding over depleting force levels is crucial for the IAF. Its existing 32 fighter squadrons are much below the sanctioned 39 and half. The squadron strength is projected to plunge to around 27 during 2012-2017.

The new fighters would be delivered during 2014-2018, Defence Minister A K Antony told Lok Sabha on Monday. The latest order will be in addition to the 230 Su-30 fighters already contracted from Russia. The IAF currently operates five Su-30 squadrons (around 100 fighters) — three based in Pune and the remaining two in Bareilly.

Plans are afoot to deploy two extra squadrons each in Punjab and the Northeast. A Su-30 can carry eight tonnes of armament including nuclear bombs.

The IAF is beefing up its airbases and inducting modern aircraft in the Northeast to keep pace with Chinese military in the Tibet Autonomous Region.

It is also monitoring the modernisation of the Pakistan Air force (PAF), which has been striving hard to bridge the capability gap with the IAF. The PAF is expanding its fighter fleet by inducting US-supplied F-16 fighters and JF-17 Thunder jets, developed jointly with China.

The IAF is also scurrying ahead to induct 126 medium multirole combat aircraft.

IAF to buy 42 more Su-30s - Hindustan Times