Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[ganimi kawa]

I can't get why india is termed as paranoid when our history is replete with examples of America acting against our interests.While i do not blame them for this ; it's naive to expect that we would give them a red carpet welcome and status similar to other allies just because "let's be friends" is the flavour of the month!

 

[sancho]

Interesting that you again ignor the main points in my post and keep takling about sanctions.

US export laws govern US origin equipment, components and sub components. US Origin covers both US intellectual property and US manufactured components....

SPECTRA is developed from Thales in France, so the system can't be US origin, nor can they claim intellectual property rights! What airframers shows is, that some components are produced in the Thales subsidiary in the US, that's it. And as I said before, by the same logic all components build in France by subsidaries of US companies must be French Origin, which would put a lot of point in your list against you.
Same goes for your other examples, A330 is European origin, because it was developed their, producing components makes the component possibly US origin, but not the aircraft itself, or the tech it self. Even India produces parts of the A330 and also of the F18, does it make them Indian origin now?

The fact remains, all major, or critical parts in EF, or Rafale are developed in Europe and that why they can offer ToT and source codes, something that the Gripen for example with US engine can't.

Under US sanctions the Indian Navy’s fleet of Westland Sea King was grounded, replacement parts for IAF Mirage was unavailable.
With the possible exception of the Mig-35 none of the other MRCA contenders are immune to US sanctions.

Who says parts of Mirage weren't available? As far as I know, IAF Mirage were flying without problems and not with limited flight hours unlike PAFs US origin F16s. That's more a point against you instead for you don't you think?

I believe the decision makers in India are aware that India will have far bigger problems than getting spares for its military equipment if sanctions are ever imposed.
I also believe the threshold for sanctions in India’s case is far greater than most countries since sanctions on India will have far reaching global consequences.

In conclusion, sanctions on India is bad for India and the US since US firms are heavily vested in India.
Due to all of the above I do not understand Indian paranoia.

True and that's why the US will be looked with caution, because you supported our enemies in the past, posed sanctions... and that's exactly why I said, US arms and techs are good and even cost-effective, but you have a long way to go to proof to be a reliable partner. India has the better cards here and the US have to move first.

 

[Iggy]

First of all the above person is not a Maam , dont get fooled by Avtars
There are only to women on this forum , Emo and Jana , rest are just guys

By the posts i can figure out that the person is of south asian Decent

She is a ma'am not guy and also there lots of gals in this forum than emo and Jana..

 

[dbc]

Interesting that you again ignor the main points in my post and keep takling about sanctions.

SPECTRA is developed from Thales in France, so the system can't be US origin, nor can they claim intellectual property rights! What airframers shows is, that some components are produced in the Thales subsidiary in the US, that's it.

The site claims Spectra is manufactured in the US, by Thales (USA). That makes it US origin! The manufacturer is required by US law to declare destination and end-user.

Even India produces parts of the A330 and also of the F18, does it make them Indian origin now?

The parts that are manufactured in India are Indian origin! and must comply with Indian laws. If India were to ever sanction the US, Boeing will have to find an alternate source for those items.

The fact remains, all major, or critical parts in EF, or Rafale are developed in Europe and that why they can offer ToT and source codes, something that the Gripen for example with US engine can't.

You're in denial, you really think the French have the industrial base to manufacture all the needed components locally, cost effectively for a mere 294 fighters? I've provided a reliable source to show you that Rafale components and raw materials are sourced from several countries in Europe,US and Russia.

Who says parts of Mirage weren't available? As far as I know, IAF Mirage were flying without problems

Philip Camp said it in his report on Mirage 2000 operations in Kargil.

Indian Air Force :: The Mirage 2000 in Kargil

True and that's why the US will be looked with caution, because you supported our enemies in the past, posed sanctions... and that's exactly why I said, US arms and techs are good and even cost-effective, but you have a long way to go to proof to be a reliable partner. India has the better cards here and the US have to move first.

India having better cards is debatable, all nations in Europe including France rely heavily on US manufactured defense equipment and components for their needs. Once again European arms are not immune to US sanctions. If sanctions is a major concern then the only real choice is Russian hardware.

 

[dbc]

First of all the above person is not a Maam , dont get fooled by Avtars
There are only to women on this forum , Emo and Jana , rest are just guys

By the posts i can figure out that the person is of south asian Decent

I am female, my birth certificate says so and I'm not from South Asia.

 

[ganimi kawa]

^^^Well, that's as authentic as it can get ( had to modify my post once again!)

Let me reiterate my question to you, do you really think that India has signed accords which are as comprehensively stifling as CISMOA et al with countries like Russia and europian nations?

About the sanctions, yes, us can stop any item that is manufactured on its land from getting shipped to enemy states ( by means both legal and illegal ). India is well aware of this especially since the sea king issue. That is why we have several mechanisms in place now to avoid this kind of situation arising again e.g. the hawk deal was very specific about the removal of critical US origin systems. But all these measures cannot work if we buy from US itself especially after signing these accords..

In nutshell, yes rafale will feel the pinch of US sanctions but it will not be a repeat of the sea king saga. If we go for f-xx then we will have 126 hanger queens the moment sanctions button is pressed in the white house!

 

[sancho]

The site claims Spectra is manufactured in the US, by Thales (USA). That makes it US origin! The manufacturer is required by US law to declare destination and end-user.

The parts that are manufactured in India are Indian origin! and must comply with Indian laws. If India were to ever sanction the US, Boeing will have to find an alternate source for those items.

That's what I told you too, the components can be US origin, but the system not, because it was developed by France, or French companies in France. Do you really believe Thales would produce, or procure any critical part in/from the US, that could be sanctioned?
As long as it is developed by France, it's intelectual rights belong to them, not to US, no matter where it will be produced. All you can sanction are the parts that were developed in the US and the Rafale use only minor components from the US, unlike the Gripen for example, that uses an US engine.

You're in denial, you really think the French have the industrial base to manufacture all the needed components locally, cost effectively for a mere 294 fighters? I've provided a reliable source to show you that Rafale components and raw materials are sourced from several countries in Europe,US and Russia.

How? I denyied only your claims about what all is US and what not, because several things were wrong as I showed you!

Philip Camp said it in his report on Mirage 2000 operations in Kargil.

Indian Air Force :: The Mirage 2000 in Kargil

Yes, I know this report and where does it say anything about lack of spares of the Mirage, because of sanctions? Actually it says, that Paveway 2 kits (from Raytheon), that were not correctly supplied by the US, were embargoed and IAF couldn't get the needed parts to integrate them to the Mirage fighters. So once again you claim wrong things, there were no problem with French arms and techs, but with US, that's even why the Mirage is hailed since then and IAF love the fighter and the good experiance with France. Reliabel, good performance and high quality!

India having better cards is debatable, all nations in Europe including France rely heavily on US manufactured defense equipment and components for their needs. Once again European arms are not immune to US sanctions. If sanctions is a major concern then the only real choice is Russian hardware.

And for the 3rd time, you brought up the sanctions, altough I told you about restrictions like EUM and ToT! Especially the latter is important for us, but as we know US laws restricts the transfer and exactly here the Europeans (Russian of course too) have a clear advantage.

 

[dbc]

That's what I told you too, the components can be US origin, but the system not, because it was developed by France, or French companies in France. Do you really believe Thales would produce, or procure any critical part in/from the US, that could be sanctioned?

Spectra (the entire system) is made in the USA by Thales USA, you can live in denial but does not change facts.

Dassault Rafale - program supplier guide

And its too late in the day to worry about US sanctions, the Phalcon, Green Pine, Boeing: P-8A Poseidon, Apache, Chinook and C-17 are all vulnerable to US export restrictions.

I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to convince you, lets agree to disagree and move on. Rafale is a good choice for the IAF, but it comes with its own set of risks and issues. In the end the Indian authorities will have to assesses the risks and make an informed choice. Boeing and LM are secure enough to survive loosing the Indian deal. Dassault Aviation is desperate for foreign sales and have always relied heavily on foreign sales since domestic consumption isn't enough to support program costs. You have assurance from Dassault and Sarkozy on source codes but these are just words, I'd check the fine print before you sign on the dotted line.

 

[sudhir007]

news.outlookindia.com | IAF Transports BSNL Equipment to Leh

In a bid to restore vital communication links severed due to mudslide triggered by flash floods in Leh in Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Air Force has transported BSNL equipment from New Delhi and Chandigarh to the affected area.

Besides, the IAF has also airlifted a heavy duty bulldozer from Chandigarh to clear the debris there.

One IL-76 aircraft was used to transport BSNL equipment from New Delhi while two AN-32 aircraft airlifted additional equipment from Chandigarh. An IL-76 aircraft was pressed into service to transport one heavy-duty bulldozer, an official release here said.

Relief material, medical items and 5,000 blankets were airlifted from Delhi taking into account the requirements projected by the Jammu and Kashmir government.

"Two tonnes of relief material were also taken by an AN-32 aircraft from Udhampur. Bodies of 10 victims of the mudslide were brought by two AN-32 aircraft to Udhampur. One Cheetah helicopter placed at Leh was utilized for casualty evacuation of a Spanish citizen from Egu to Leh today," a Defence Ministry release said.

29 Columns of Army personnel are deployed in the affected area for relief and rescue operations.

"95 villagers of village Hanoyogma near Handen Brooke, whose houses have been washed away, are being provided food and shelter by the nearby Army post," it added.

Meanwhile, Western Air Command chief Air Marshal NAK Browne, under whose charge the northern sector falls, today visited Leh airbase to oversee the relief and air bridge operations. He was accompanied by Air Vice Marshal R Sitaraman.

During the visit, Air Marshal Browne reviewed the infrastructure of Leh airbase and discussed the situation with Union Minister Prithviraj Chauhan who is already there.

The Air Marshal also met the station personnel and commended them for restoring full fledged operations from Leh airbase in record time of seven-and-a-half hours, the defence ministry said.

As a result of this, a total of sixteen flights (both IAF and civil) were undertaken on Saturday and twenty two flights on Sunday, the ministry said.

 

[southpaw]

I am female

Hallelujah for that
Sick of dudes '*****'ing at each other in this forum

On topic, Lets take a scenario where India tests another Nuke.
US wants to slap sanctions on us whereas the European nations don't want to (we had good relations with most of EU throughout the previous sanctions), for arguments sake.
1) We have US planes: It is pretty simple to ask Boeing not to sell any spares.
2) We have European planes: Now US has to deny European companies the sale of spare parts that 'might' be bound for india. This is a bit tricky than it sounds, especially dealing with governments who aren't on the same page as the US. They have to first establish that the spares are bound to India and not to their own planes. Then they have to tell the companies that they have to take a loss (and potentially forget any additional orders from India). This leads to straining of relations with its Nato allies.
Now, lets take the case of Eurofighter, this will strain relations between 3 countries.

Besides, we got good support/ammo for our Mirages even when we were under sanctions.(French just cited prior commitments and resumed business) DBC, now dont tell me Mirage 2000 had every nut and bolt manufactured in France.

Its unlikely that the parts EF outsources are strictly manufactured in US only. Maybe it was cheaper because of scale or due to offset commitments (yes US has the most stringent offset policy of all). If even you know that Europe is not immune to US sanctions, the decision makers for the EF consortium aren't blind. They wouldn't source critical parts from US. It is called 'Risk Mitigation' in project management, esp in such strategic projects. They would definitely have a Plan B. If the sale of 100 fighters depends on it they would definitely put it in action.

So the bottomline is risk of sactions affecting US planes is given. Have no doubt about it (besides the end user agreement bullshit, another thing which ticks me. Pakistan signs whatever US wants then blatantly violate it and still get billions in US aid. Whereas, India being a responsible state has to sign the same damn thing, and have your control over what we paid $ for)
But there is lesser risk with EU planes. EU economy is not in a shape to impose trade sanctions on India either esp with our 258bn $ forex reserves(read, buying power). They didn't do it when we had 29bn(1998). Also, we don't want to put all eggs in one basket, a la Mig-35.
Another problem comes with respect to ToT. Europeans just want to make money and do business. So make a deal they cant refuse, and they will give ToT. But in the case of US, its different. They have to have control over the world. Not only do they want to make money, they want to keep you at their feet too. You can't buy your way out of it.
Besides why would we subsidize the military aid to Pakistan, by buying US planes?
And whoever said that India has the better card to play, is totally true. Lets not fcuk this game up. I would be happy with either Rafale or EF.

 

[Archie]

I am female, my birth certificate says so and I'm not from South Asia.

Never knew that a french American Lady would be interested in a debate about what fighter India should buy for its Airforce

Considering the facts that fighter jets are primarily Boyz toys ,not something to interest a lady unless she is US Secretary of State

 

[dbc]

Hallelujah for that
Sick of dudes '*****'ing at each other in this forum

On topic, Lets take a scenario where India tests another Nuke.
US wants to slap sanctions on us whereas the European nations don't want to (we had good relations with most of EU throughout the previous sanctions), for arguments sake.
1) We have US planes: It is pretty simple to ask Boeing not to sell any spares.
2) We have European planes: Now US has to deny European companies the sale of spare parts that 'might' be bound for india. This is a bit tricky than it sounds, especially dealing with governments who aren't on the same page as the US. They have to first establish that the spares are bound to India and not to their own planes. Then they have to tell the companies that they have to take a loss (and potentially forget any additional orders from India). This leads to straining of relations with its Nato allies.
Now, lets take the case of Eurofighter, this will strain relations between 3 countries.

Besides, we got good support/ammo for our Mirages even when we were under sanctions.(French just cited prior commitments and resumed business) DBC, now dont tell me Mirage 2000 had every nut and bolt manufactured in France.

Its unlikely that the parts EF outsources are strictly manufactured in US only. Maybe it was cheaper because of scale or due to offset commitments (yes US has the most stringent offset policy of all). If even you know that Europe is not immune to US sanctions, the decision makers for the EF consortium aren't blind. They wouldn't source critical parts from US. It is called 'Risk Mitigation' in project management, esp in such strategic projects. They would definitely have a Plan B. If the sale of 100 fighters depends on it they would definitely put it in action.

So the bottomline is risk of sactions affecting US planes is given. Have no doubt about it (besides the end user agreement bullshit, another thing which ticks me. Pakistan signs whatever US wants then blatantly violate it and still get billions in US aid. Whereas, India being a responsible state has to sign the same damn thing, and have your control over what we paid $ for)
But there is lesser risk with EU planes. EU economy is not in a shape to impose trade sanctions on India either esp with our 258bn $ forex reserves(read, buying power). They didn't do it when we had 29bn(1998). Also, we don't want to put all eggs in one basket, a la Mig-35.
Another problem comes with respect to ToT. Europeans just want to make money and do business. So make a deal they cant refuse, and they will give ToT. But in the case of US, its different. They have to have control over the world. Not only do they want to make money, they want to keep you at their feet too. You can't buy your way out of it.
Besides why would we subsidize the military aid to Pakistan, by buying US planes?
And whoever said that India has the better card to play, is totally true. Lets not fcuk this game up. I would be happy with either Rafale or EF.

Sanctions have to approved by Congress, India has enough friends in Congress to prevent such from occurring. Unless India acts against our core interests I do not foresee sanctions against India.

While 'risk mitigation' is important both Dassault and EADS do not have enough orders to make all components locally without dramatically increasing price. Why else will they source 60% of the parts for A330 and 51% parts for A380 from US firms?

As for me I just don't like canards, there isn't any point in going into details but most pilots will know why...

 

[dbc]

Never knew that a french American Lady would be interested in a debate about what fighter India should buy for its Airforce

Considering the facts that fighter jets are primarily Boyz toys ,not something to interest a lady unless she is US Secretary of State

You need to get out more..the world has changed a great deal since you last left your mommy's basement in 1942.

 

[Archie]

You need to get out more..the world has changed a great deal since you last left your mommy's basement in 1942.

Lady , I am 27 Yrs old , and thanks to my job , i have traveled most of Western Europe , Middle east , South and southeast asia , I would also be visiting Canada in november , and plan to visit my brother in Houston Texas , next summer
Guess i will be seeing u then

 

[ganimi kawa]

Sanctions have to approved by Congress, India has enough friends in Congress to prevent such from occurring. Unless India acts against our core interests I do not foresee sanctions against India.

While 'risk mitigation' is important both Dassault and EADS do not have enough orders to make all components locally without dramatically increasing price. Why else will they source 60% of the parts for A330 and 51% parts for A380 from US firms?

As for me I just don't like canards, there isn't any point in going into details but most pilots will know why...

Assuming everything you said is correct, how much of an impact do you foresee of US sanctions on eurocanards in IAF ? ( with respect to economical , operational , doctrinal aspects ). Just a rough estimate,please.

P.S. will you please answer my question from post no. 741 ?