India unsettled as US backs ' smartest choice' Diamer- Basha Dam

[Sugarcane]

But what will happen is that they will bring their own workers, all contracts will go to Chinese companies, the rate of interest will be high, the per unit cost generated by the dam will be high as the rate of return the Chinese will charge for building it will be high.

None of these issues are there with US funding.

Interest rates can be negotiated (we already got soft loans from China for different Projects). And no problem with contracts going to Chinese companies, infect it's better as in this case there will no (or very less) chances that funds will end up in swiss accounts of our politicians and will not end up paying back loans for nothing on ground.

US funding comes with lot of strings attached and you are never sure that next installment of funds will come or not.

 

[Tshering22]

Let's face it;

USA needs Pakistan for two things:

1- They think that Pakistan is the only one that can help them in Afghanistan, since they won't be able to get a way out through Putin's Central Asian stans.

2- To create a heft to stop any potential future competition from any emerging states.

Pakistan serves the dual purpose by being a weak centred state;
a) it allows them to twist policies to keep us in check;

b) being a weak state unable to control leaked militancy into China and Iran, they can keep maintaining a nuisance value and at the same time Pakistan doesn't get blamed since they cannot control this threat.

For the same reason that they let North Korea and palestinian authority exist despite their closest allies South Korea and Israel in serious trouble; to retain an excuse to exist in those parts of the world. A united Korea, Militarized Japan, developed China, developed India and a palestine-free Israel would mean that US has no excuse to stay.

________________________

Let's see what policy Swaraj pursues.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Which is why China wants Pakistan to waive off competition for planned projects in Pakistan.
Which is why China is offering a higher rate of interest than World Bank or JICA, to Pakistan.
Which is why China is taking a 27% Internal Rate of Return for power projects in Pakistan?

Yes. I am sure you are right.

Any sources for those numbers?

And I mean from the original Chinese sources (don't worry all the major Chinese news sites have English versions), not your subcontinent media, since they won't know such details of private deals between China and Pakistan.

 

[Judge]

Interest rates can be negotiated (we already got soft loans from China for different Projects). And no problem with contracts going to Chinese companies, infect it's better as in this case there will no (or very less) chances that funds will end up in swiss accounts of our politicians and will not end up paying back loans for nothing on ground.

US funding comes with lot of strings attached and you are never sure that next installment of funds will come or not.

While US funding comes with strings attached of one kind - that of democracy and other kinds.

The Chinese funding comes with different kinds of strings attached. You would be naive if you forget this. The strings are there nonetheless.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

While US funding comes with strings attached of one kind - that of democracy and other kinds.

The Chinese funding comes with different kinds of strings attached. You would be naive if you forget this. The strings are there nonetheless.

I think Pakistan will prefer our strings, since our strings are economic and based on equal relations, and not political "requests" as in the case of America.

 

[Sugarcane]

While US funding comes with strings attached of one kind - that of democracy and other kinds.

The Chinese funding comes with different kinds of strings attached. You would be naive if you forget this. The strings are there nonetheless.

Yeah there is Chinese string with Investment which is contract to be given to Chinese company, Which is far better than Amreeka's never ending "do more" wish list.

 

[Judge]

Any sources for those numbers?

And I mean from the original Chinese sources (don't worry all the major Chinese news sites have English versions), not your subcontinent media, since they won't know such details of private deals between China and Pakistan.

EDIT:Unfortunately I cannot post links yet.


By all means. Let me use Pakistani sources. Its as original as GoP is a party in the deal with China.

1. Google the following:
"pakistani senators surprised on high returns"
tribune news website source
27% Rate of Return for Chinese projects.

I don't need to tell any person who has business sense how utterly amazing a 27% return is. I assure you, if Pakistani Government were to offer me a 27% rate of return on an infrastructure project, I would be investing too along with China.

2.
"rules being bypassed to facilitate china investment"
Without opening the projects for international bidding or competition and bypassing PPRA rules, the investment by the neighbouring country amounts to giving it a good business on its own conditions.
Nation news website source

3.
"China reveals its cards for investing $20 billion in Pakistan"
ISLAMABAD: China is demanding that all mega power projects, including the Bhasha Dam, Gaddani and Lakhra coal plants, the Tarbela Extension project and many transmission lines, be handed over to China without any international bidding process, and Beijing will directly invest $22 billion in Pakistan.

thenews website source

 

[rockstarIN]

Your markets? They are peanuts to what they can get elsewhere. Have you ever been to America? Have you ever Lived and worked in America? I suggest you do. Most of the Americans wouldn't care for the word Indian, other than some spicy curry at a restaurant. If they want, they can create the size of Indian future Market, within the current Chinese market/far east market.
If India tried to restrict American Dollar follow, it will only shoot itself. Kid, educate yourself on modern economics, the value of dollar in international markets and above all, how the US central bank, Federal Reserve, can shake markets on a whim. Federal reserve cuts/raises the interest rates for it's domestic market but the effects are felt anywhere from Japan to India.
That is why your so called superman economist Raghuram Rajan had to become vocal to let America know that what they do affects India as well. Most of the money that came into India post 2001 as what you proudly call FDI, was cheap, flooded money coming from Federal Reserve or European Central Banks. That cheap money, allowed the big companies to finance new projects in emerging markets. Companies get this money as loan from commercial banks, who in turn get it from the central banks at close to 0-1% interest rates. However, if they, the central banks of reserve currency (Bank of England, European Bank, Federal Reserve etc) feel that enough stimulus has been pumped, they will raise the interest rates, thereby making it difficult for industry to borrow money. With no cheap money, companies tend to stay away from small/immature markets. There is a reason why the world is closely watching China's central bank policy, because it will directly affect their economy and as such those related to it.
Here:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cc1d1716-89ac-11e3-abc4-00144feab7de.html#axzz3GmK3EnGv

So yea, i didn't mean to hijack this thread, but you really need to catch up with the 21st century. India is great for business, but it is in no position to dictate trade or business or foreign policy to USA.





India's official stand, my a**. It only helps you look foolish, that's it. It makes you look like a 18 year old, who despite gaining in size and age, has the mental capability of a 3 year old.



They made sure that RD-93s were delivered, despite Indian reservations.

Not fully correct I must say.. If you take thing about the money sources yea, it is America and dollar which rules the world. Anything happens in America will off course have effects in the world. No questions there.

Yut you should know that there is always a cap on FDI investment in most business sectors in India. We need more capital but there is govt. control over it. Our economy wont fall just because of Fed decision to increase the rates. The very first reason the FDIs coming into India or China not because of only monies available cheap but our RoE is higher than US and European markets. We grew more than those economies and if they find the same anywhere else, they will just go there.

You should not take only FDI inflow into capital markets, which is FDI driven in all the stock markets which are mainly long term pension funds.

 

[Judge]

Yeah there is Chinese string with Investment which is contract to be given to Chinese company, Which is far better than Amreeka's never ending "do more" wish list.

That is a call for Pakistani citizens to take.

The only thing I offer is information.
That there are an equal number of strings attached to Chinese deals. Just that they are of different kinds - the ones that dont get popular attention - like higher interest rates, higher internal rate of return, no local hiring, no local competency/skill development, solely chinese subcontractors ..and a ridiculous clause like no international bidding which I think China introduced for Pakistan.

I think Pakistan will prefer our strings, since our strings are economic and based on equal relations, and not political "requests" as in the case of America.

Your "requests" are not political, they are economic "requests".
Statements like Equal rights and all might fly on forums where most of the people are uneducated on economic issues and only understand 'pride' and 'guns' being simplistic and nationalistic, but it does not really fly with the GoP which would be negotiating these 'requests' for China - all on equal relations of course.

 

[Donatello]

Not fully correct I must say.. If you take thing about the money sources yea, it is America and dollar which rules the world. Anything happens in America will off course have effects in the world. No questions there.

Yut you should know that there is always a cap on FDI investment in most business sectors in India. We need more capital but there is govt. control over it. Our economy wont fall just because of Fed decision to increase the rates. The very first reason the FDIs coming into India or China not because of only monies available cheap but our RoE is higher than US and European markets. We grew more than those economies and if they find the same anywhere else, they will just go there.

You should not take only FDI inflow into capital markets, which is FDI driven in all the stock markets which are mainly long term pension funds.

Please explain why India went from a near double digit growth to 5% (fueled one way or the other through foreign capital inflows, purchasing services from Infosys for example, to Hindustan Unilever expanding business) in short span of 2 years? India was not exposed to the toxic assets/housing bubble in the west, infact Indian real estate was still growing, but yet, India took a massive hit in growth rate. Same thing with China, but in case of China it can be explained in terms of falling exports, they have Massive Massive exports, and decline in those export markets means China's economy suffers. But India is no where near that export driven economy. India imports more than it exports, China is other way round and figures usually come in with an extra digit.
Now please don't tell me it was because of Congress.
Also please explain why your central bank governor had to voice his 'expert, but realistic painful' reservations to the federal reserve?

So much anger .I dont mean it . And I dont want to know more about economics except the simple facts.
Any one that can read newspapers knows the flow of the wind now a days.And we are not a subservient of USA .Diplomatic episode showed it.But official actions of US are directly opposite to what you have mentioned here.
You saw the response of Indian Americans when our PM visited there.We can supply best talents ot whole world .We are stable and ever growing economy .That is why foreign investors are flocking in to our markets when issues in our economy cleared out.
And I know we cant rely foreign investment for too long .That is why we initiated resilent manufacturing policies like 'make in India ' campaigns .We are started with next to zero economy in 1947 .And I am satisified with our current performance.But we need more.
US public opinions is not an issue for us.What we need is the protection of our business and national interests.And I am sure elites in our South Block can deliver that.You know and I agree that we have a lot more poor peoples .But look at the appeal our economy showed in international arena even if all of these challenges .It is just a beginning .More will come in future .
We have millions of youths in our nation.Simple reduction in the unemployment rate among them in conjunction with increase in manufacturing policy itself will enlarge our economy several times than now.US policy makers already forsaw such a magnificent opportunity that is why they are investing here.We dont go for them but they are coming here with their nuclear deal .We dont ask them anything but they came here and revoke majority of sanctions.US knows the language of technology and power .That is why they came here.And we are welcomed them..
I agree with you we cant dicate their foreign policy but they cant simply ignore our economic potential .Simple increase in our GDP will again increase that strength.

India's official stand is a firm stand.Noone in this PDF or common Indians cant challenge it.And they dont care about neighbours opinions in concern.I am just mentioned it that s all.


Russians already loss billions of dollars of deal in India.Another 30 billion $ is also in pipeline.plus lot others.They cant afford such a mass loss.Russians cant provoke us.

No body is saying to ignore India. If i am a business-man from Pakistan, i would love to do business with India. But please, all your post is hogwash. Made in India campaign? Seriously? How long ago did you hear this thing? Your buying power is huge as a collective nation due to 1.2billion people. But your individual consumer demand is still very much low. China is the same case, but compared to India they are at least 3 times ahead. There is a reason why global Automakers look at Europe/USA/China for their new products. Same thing with Aircraft makers, technology companies etc. You have decent demand, but nothing world shaking. China is posting poor growth figures, and the world is actually holding it's breath. Now, how many in the west really gave a damn about India's slow down? Not many, other than for some PhD thesis. Because it didn't matter.
You will get there one day, if you don't do something stupid and plan ahead.But today the reality is different to what you want.

If there is a global balance sheet of GDP figures for a total value of, say, $100, India is $7. Is it significant? is 7 out of 100 a good figure? Would you want to score 7 out of 100 in your Physics exam and show that to your parents and say, that daddy, despite these punny figures for my 200lbs body weight, i do matter?

Would love to hear his reply.

 

[rockstarIN]

Please explain why India went from a near double digit growth to 5% (fueled one way or the other through foreign capital inflows, purchasing services from Infosys for example, to Hindustan Unilever expanding business) in short span of 2 years? India was not exposed to the toxic assets/housing bubble in the west, infact Indian real estate was still growing, but yet, India took a massive hit in growth rate. Same thing with China, but in case of China it can be explained in terms of falling exports, they have Massive Massive exports, and decline in those export markets means China's economy suffers. But India is no where near that export driven economy. India imports more than it exports, China is other way round and figures usually come in with an extra digit.
Now please don't tell me it was because of Congress.
Also please explain why your central bank governor had to voice his 'expert, but realistic painful' reservations to the federal reserve?

When we open up our economy to the foreign investments in early 1990s, indeed there were foreign inflows which helped us to grow further in numbers. Even now US and others want to up the cap more for foreign FDIs. There is a reason why they wants to come to India...which is our purchasing power of middle class and higher RoE, not because they love us. There were specific benefits for them to invest in India and vise versa for us too. Our economy was doing well in 2008 before the slowdown and did well during the recession period compared to the other economies. THERE will be effect in every part of the world when US goes into recession due to wherever reasons.

And you take anticipatory bail saying not blame Congress!

The first UPA govt did very well, but with US recession, the 'policy freeze' by second UPA govt stopped the further growth. You may not like the reason, I will explain it with examples. Indian capital market started going up before the elections (starting from Oct 13) and in all time peak nowadays. Indian Capital market is FDI driven, so how come it came to the growth stream? only because of the expectation from the new govt.

And Mr. Rajan voiced concern about Fed interest hike is quite genuine in line with global concerns and eventually Indian capital markets will overcome the effects, so is the other emerging economies. FDIs are driven by RoEs, which inclues long term pension funds from across the world, not just debt funds which take advantage of low interest rates,

 

[SrNair]

Please explain why India went from a near double digit growth to 5% (fueled one way or the other through foreign capital inflows, purchasing services from Infosys for example, to Hindustan Unilever expanding business) in short span of 2 years? India was not exposed to the toxic assets/housing bubble in the west, infact Indian real estate was still growing, but yet, India took a massive hit in growth rate. Same thing with China, but in case of China it can be explained in terms of falling exports, they have Massive Massive exports, and decline in those export markets means China's economy suffers. But India is no where near that export driven economy. India imports more than it exports, China is other way round and figures usually come in with an extra digit.
Now please don't tell me it was because of Congress.
Also please explain why your central bank governor had to voice his 'expert, but realistic painful' reservations to the federal reserve?



No body is saying to ignore India. If i am a business-man from Pakistan, i would love to do business with India. But please, all your post is hogwash. Made in India campaign? Seriously? How long ago did you hear this thing? Your buying power is huge as a collective nation due to 1.2billion people. But your individual consumer demand is still very much low. China is the same case, but compared to India they are at least 3 times ahead. There is a reason why global Automakers look at Europe/USA/China for their new products. Same thing with Aircraft makers, technology companies etc. You have decent demand, but nothing world shaking. China is posting poor growth figures, and the world is actually holding it's breath. Now, how many in the west really gave a damn about India's slow down? Not many, other than for some PhD thesis. Because it didn't matter.
You will get there one day, if you don't do something stupid and plan ahead.But today the reality is different to what you want.

If there is a global balance sheet of GDP figures for a total value of, say, $100, India is $7. Is it significant? is 7 out of 100 a good figure? Would you want to score 7 out of 100 in your Physics exam and show that to your parents and say, that daddy, despite these punny figures for my 200lbs body weight, i do matter?

Would love to hear his reply.

Did you actually think we will remain in status quo about our Gdp growth?
World second fastest growing economy in the world .That designation itself say a lot about it.
Not Made in India campaign but 'Make in India' campaign .This is just a start.What do you mean about doing stupid?Now you are counting on such a possibility.But that not going to happen.Because we are simply too big to fail.Our GoI dont have any choice except the skyrocketing of our GDP .Only stupid thing we might have done in past was an election mistake or UPA 3.
But Indian voters did a commendable job by electing NDA govt .I think you already see its effect in our stock exchange.

At present scenario we have less say but you cant assume we will staywith that 7$ portion or 7 marks in this world forever .
China was in same state like us in 2001.Then US had 33% share in world economic might in 2001 .But now look at them both of them.China is overcoming US .And it may happen within 2020.
Geo politics is playing here.Because of our unique advantages US need our help to maintain their supremacy .And we are simply exploiting it.Like the possibility mentioned in this thread.
We have a democracy so I agree we will take some more time.But within at least 20 decades we will multiple our GDP several times

 

[Donatello]

Did you actually think we will remain in status quo about our Gdp growth?
World second fastest growing economy in the world .That designation itself say a lot about it.
Not Made in India campaign but 'Make in India' campaign .This is just a start.What do you mean about doing stupid?Now you are counting on such a possibility.But that not going to happen.Because we are simply too big to fail.Our GoI dont have any choice except the skyrocketing of our GDP .Only stupid thing we might have done in past was an election mistake or UPA 3.
But Indian voters did a commendable job by electing NDA govt .I think you already see its effect in our stock exchange.

At present scenario we have less say but you cant assume we will staywith that 7$ portion or 7 marks in this world forever .
China was in same state like us in 2001.Then US had 33% share in world economic might in 2001 .But now look at them both of them.China is overcoming US .And it may happen within 2020.
Geo politics is playing here.Because of our unique advantages US need our help to maintain their supremacy .And we are simply exploiting it.Like the possibility mentioned in this thread.
We have a democracy so I agree we will take some more time.But within at least 20 decades we will multiple our GDP several times

Again, USA doesn't need your help to maintain it's supremacy. It's just trade. They are not at odds with India, but they are not overwhelmingly propping up India either. Having good relations always has it's benefits. India has tasted American cooperation for barely 10-15 years. So it might seem like a foreign concept to you. But the reality is very different.

To summarize:
India cannot dictate what USA does vis-a-vis China or Pakistan.

It is totally independent. Did you forget the Devyani incident? How they threw out your member of the consular staff?

 

[Sugarcane]

That is a call for Pakistani citizens to take.
The only thing I offer is information.
That there are an equal number of strings attached to Chinese deals. Just that they are of different kinds - the ones that dont get popular attention - like higher interest rates, higher internal rate of return, no local hiring, no local competency/skill development, solely chinese subcontractors ..and a ridiculous clause like no international bidding which I think China introduced for Pakistan.

Your love, concerns and worries about Pakistan are duly noted. But we should look for loans from China than US.

 

[SrNair]

Again, USA doesn't need your help to maintain it's supremacy. It's just trade. They are not at odds with India, but they are not overwhelmingly propping up India either. Having good relations always has it's benefits. India has tasted American cooperation for barely 10-15 years. So it might seem like a foreign concept to you. But the reality is very different.

To summarize:
India cannot dictate what USA does vis-a-vis China or Pakistan.

It is totally independent. Did you forget the Devyani incident? How they threw out your member of the consular staff?

I am asking the same question Did you forget that incident?
India initiate same apprisals and threw out their senior staff from India.
'India is the US pivot in Asia' this is words of former defence secreatary Leon Panetta.
And It has lot of meaning.US is looking for their fair share in Indian economy in future .That is why they are investing now .If they failed now then it will shutdown their business prospects in India in future .But at that time noone will be in India to hear their demands .That is why they are investing now.Use initiate sanctions against us after 1998 tests .But guess what?
They themselves threw it out within few years.Did you know why?US business share in India's economy was less than 4 %.
Then they realized that all that things they did against after 1974 dont hurt us at all.
Then during UPA 1 time they came here with so called nuclear deal .We dont ask anything from them.They came here.Pakistan demanded for such a deal .And what you got?
We cant see anything.US advantage in this world is their diplomatic excellence of making allies .Without allies US will also met the same fate of USSR.
US want world domination .But support fromJapan and Australia has its own limitations.That is why they want our cooperation.