India should stop using Mumbai attacks for propaganda: FO

[Dalai Lama]

Your sarkar does not share the same enthusiasm. The difference is that a nuclear environment has prevented a conflict in South Asia.

Yeah, it certainly did in 1999!

 

[IceCold]

Yes it has, so far. Will it keep doing so? Can't say. It depends on the degree of provocation.

Another Mumbai and who knows what'll happen?

There's a limit to everything, you know, be it patience.

I sure hope so that the day never arises where we have to go that far and sanity prevails on both sides.

 

[Avatar]

I disagree with your assertion. Reason is not because India was not willing to play into the hands of such morons but because India did not enjoy sufficient superiority over Pakistan to achieve any objectives. Or as your leaders like to put it, India was not sure what would be Pakistan's reply.

I am not sure how true this claim is, but from what I have heard, if India really wishes to hurt Pakistan, it can reduce the flow of water into Pakistan through Jammu & Kashmir which will hurt Pakistan in a BIG way without sending a single bullet across the LOC. The fact that we have never done this or even threatened to do it shows how patient we have been. Indian administrations had "Surgical strikes" on terror camps in Pakistani Kashmir as one of the options on it's table.

Now, when I say terror camps, they HAVE to exist. The Indian military definitely have solid intelligence (probably satellite data) which allowed them to realize at least 50 terror camps in THAT AREA ALONE. If this wasn't the case, there would be no such option on the table. IAF cannot plan on attacking something that does not exist !

The reason why India has not attacked or will not attack Pakistan anytime soon is because the "gains" from attacking will be far less than the "cost".

Speaking from a pure logical POV, it would be in India's interests to avoid any kind of conflict now or in the near future. India's economy is booming and India's defence capabilities are expanding, while Pakistan's economy isn't in the same league. It would be wise of India to restrain from any kind of conflict while also ensuring that it is always in a better position to fight in case war is inevitable.

 

[Fireurimagination]

right

this attitude will be music to the ears of the fanatics on both side...
only now you are propogating that the Indian public is asking its goverment to start a subversive and terrorist operations in Pakistan?

well where would the moral high ground then? would there be any bases for Indian goverment to go to the rest of the world and cry? they will say well its your state policy now to stage acts of terror in pakistan so deal with it.

its a shame when moderate and civilised people talk the language of the right wing hawks.. because the only loosing party on either side of the conflict are the people who have nothing to do with the politics. people who get killed are the ones getting along with their daily lives.

this is the kind of situation that people like Bal Thakeray & RRS will love to have in India and Mullah Fazlullah & Sipah Sahabah / TTP will love to have in Pakistan.


no terrorist act should be forgotten not even a single one that didnt make it to international news.. be it Pakistan or India.. its the loss of innocent life.. but the point is.. lets not act the way.. these barbarians want these two countires to act... Al qaeda/ Taliban already expressed their desire that India and Pakistan have an all out war with each other. does Indian goverment and India want to play into their hands?

as far as the non-action of Pakistani justice system is concerned, circumstantial evidence doesnt hold ground.both countries use the same British law of evidence.. whatever has been handed over to Pakistan regarding the LeT's leaderhsip will have the same outcome in Indian courts. if the judges are decidng without any pressure.

Well sad but true, India should and must admit that it will have to live with a hostile neighbor who is least interested in peace and is hell bent on harming your interests and deal with that accordingly

All the mushy peace talk are great to hear but as long as people like Lakhvi, Salauddin, Mazood Azhar are state guest in Pakistan (read LeT, Jaish, Hizbul) spare me your peace talks

About the bolded part Maulana Masood Azhar is an Indian citizen released in Kandahar, head of Jaish-e-Mohammmad, perpetrator of the attack on Indian parliament is today freely roaming freely and doing rallies in Pakistan, so cut the crap

 

[IceCold]

I am not sure how true this claim is, but from what I have heard, if India really wishes to hurt Pakistan, it can reduce the flow of water into Pakistan through Jammu & Kashmir which will hurt Pakistan in a BIG way without sending a single bullet across the LOC. The fact that we have never done this or even threatened to do it shows how patient we have been. Indian administrations had "Surgical strikes" on terror camps in Pakistani Kashmir as one of the options on it's table.

Now, when I say terror camps, they HAVE to exist. The Indian military definitely have solid intelligence (probably satellite data) which allowed them to realize at least 50 terror camps in THAT AREA ALONE. If this wasn't the case, there would be no such option on the table. IAF cannot plan on attacking something that does not exist !

The reason why India has not attacked or will not attack Pakistan anytime soon is because the "gains" from attacking will be far less than the "cost".

Speaking from a pure logical POV, it would be in India's interests to avoid any kind of conflict now or in the near future. India's economy is booming and India's defence capabilities are expanding, while Pakistan's economy isn't in the same league. It would be wise of India to restrain from any kind of conflict while also ensuring that it is always in a better position to fight in case war is inevitable.

Wrong. First India has already reduced the flow of water to Pakistan by building dams. So your point is not valid.
Your second point " They have to exist" shows your ignorance, because firstly if they are, Pakistan would not be so stupid to keep them there for others to collect evidence and second they will be removed before any strikes take place, because Pakistan would not like to loose so called strategic tools. So other then a publicity stunt and to humiliate Pakistan, nothing would have been gained.
On your third point, i presume you have already assumed that Pakistan's economy will remain the same while India's will continue to boom, is flawed. As for the defense capabilities, the status quo will always be maintained. Not to forget that if push comes to shove, the nuclear option is always on the table.

 

[rockstarIN]

Wrong. First India has already reduced the flow of water to Pakistan by building dams. So your point is not valid.
Your second point " They have to exist" shows your ignorance, because firstly if they are, Pakistan would not be so stupid to keep them there for others to collect evidence and second they will be removed before any strikes take place, because Pakistan would not like to loose so called strategic tools. So other then a publicity stunt and to humiliate Pakistan, nothing would have been gained.
On your third point, i presume you have already assumed that Pakistan's economy will remain the same while India's will continue to boom, is flawed. As for the defense capabilities, the status quo will always be maintained. Not to forget that if push comes to shove, the nuclear option is always on the table.

That will always remain in the table only..

Nobody will be ready to lose his two eyes in order to take out enemby's one eye..

 

[Avatar]

Wrong. First India has already reduced the flow of water to Pakistan by building dams. So your point is not valid.
Your second point " They have to exist" shows your ignorance, because firstly if they are, Pakistan would not be so stupid to keep them there for others to collect evidence and second they will be removed before any strikes take place, because Pakistan would not like to loose so called strategic tools. So other then a publicity stunt and to humiliate Pakistan, nothing would have been gained.
On your third point, i presume you have already assumed that Pakistan's economy will remain the same while India's will continue to boom, is flawed. As for the defense capabilities, the status quo will always be maintained. Not to forget that if push comes to shove, the nuclear option is always on the table.

Can you give me sufficient evidence on your claim that India has already reduced the flow of water ? Pakistan's own politicians have gone on to make a statement that the water crisis is Pakistan due to Mismanagement and not in anyway a product of India.

Even if we assume what you say is true, does India not have the option to reduce/divert water flow further, Possibly to close to a standstill ?

As it happens, it is not yet clear what level of Pakistani Government and Military were aware of the whole Mumbai operations. This investigation was done immediately after the terrorists had striked, and at THAT time the terror camps WERE detected. Mismanagement is not unknown, Kargil is one example. Dismantling and clearing entire infrastructure in 50 different places is not an easy task, and even that kind of activity would have been detected and televised. (possibly why it was not done)

I am not magically predicting the economic situation and growth rates. They are a result of very extensive research by world's leading experts in the field, and they are often right about it. The only things that are most likely change those numbers are natural disasters (such as the recent floods) or man made disasters such as war. (which was avoided)

For the status quo to maintain itself, you are assuming that Pakistan's military budget will stay at par with India's military budget and other factors such as Pakistan's allies aiding it with discounted/free military hardware will remain the same. Also, the economies have to maintain a similar growth rate, which is not realistic as long as Paksitan is infested with "non state actors". It is no secret that urban terror reduces economic progress, and to progress Pakistan has to eliminate terror at it's roots. I do not know about the progress on this particular venture.

Lastly, a popular mention of the "nuclear option" is a pitiful argument. There is no other nuclear armed nation other than N.Korea that threatens nuclear warfare, and it is well known which way N.Korea has been and is heading.

 

[IceCold]

Can you give me sufficient evidence on your claim that India has already reduced the flow of water ? Pakistan's own politicians have gone on to make a statement that the water crisis is Pakistan due to Mismanagement and not in anyway a product of India.

Even if we assume what you say is true, does India not have the option to reduce/divert water flow further, Possibly to close to a standstill ?

As it happens, it is not yet clear what level of Pakistani Government and Military were aware of the whole Mumbai operations. This investigation was done immediately after the terrorists had striked, and at THAT time the terror camps WERE detected. Mismanagement is not unknown, Kargil is one example. Dismantling and clearing entire infrastructure in 50 different places is not an easy task, and even that kind of activity would have been detected and televised. (possibly why it was not done)

I am not magically predicting the economic situation and growth rates. They are a result of very extensive research by world's leading experts in the field, and they are often right about it. The only things that are most likely change those numbers are natural disasters (such as the recent floods) or man made disasters such as war. (which was avoided)

For the status quo to maintain itself, you are assuming that Pakistan's military budget will stay at par with India's military budget and other factors such as Pakistan's allies aiding it with discounted/free military hardware will remain the same. Also, the economies have to maintain a similar growth rate, which is not realistic as long as Paksitan is infested with "non state actors". It is no secret that urban terror reduces economic progress, and to progress Pakistan has to eliminate terror at it's roots. I do not know about the progress on this particular venture.

Lastly, a popular mention of the "nuclear option" is a pitiful argument. There is no other nuclear armed nation other than N.Korea that threatens nuclear warfare, and it is well known which way N.Korea has been and is heading.

What do you call as evidence. The fact that the matter in itself has been raised on numerous occasions with India shows what i am talking about. Pakistan has on several occasions complained about India reducing water flow. You can call it out mismanagement and we will call you deliberately decreasing out water, fact is our water has already been reduced and so your point is not valid.

Also to maintain status quo, Pakistan does not necessarily have to match bullet for a bullet. The only thing we need is to maintain a minimum credible deterrence and that we are doing and will continue to do so with or without the so called aid.

 

[IceCold]

Lastly, a popular mention of the "nuclear option" is a pitiful argument. There is no other nuclear armed nation other than N.Korea that threatens nuclear warfare, and it is well known which way N.Korea has been and is heading.

You may want to call it a pitiful argument or whatever, fact is the option is clearly there. And by the way before quoting me, at least read the whole argument, i clearly said if "push comes to shove" I am sure you are well familiar with the phrase. Let me repeat if push comes to shove......what makes you think we are not going to use it???

 

[IceCold]

Even if we assume what you say is true, does India not have the option to reduce/divert water flow further, Possibly to close to a standstill ?

India does but not without consequences. Firstly doing so will result in a huge international condemnation. Secondly doing so will result in a war between India and Pakistan, because no matter how weak we are according to Indians, we are not going to just wait and watch while the whole of Pakistan gets dried up.

 

[ehsanm1]

Pure BS from a typical Bhaarti! Nobody gives a damn about poor people dying everyday from the blasts in Pakistan supported by RAW/CIA/Mossad's presence in Afghanistan?!

The lives of the people lost are just used for dramay baazi, then

+1 for that quote and Abdul Basit is right. So Indians, gather up real evidence/proof on ISI/Pakistan's involvement on Mumbai attacks, other than that it was all dramay baazi.

 

[Avatar]

What do you call as evidence. The fact that the matter in itself has been raised on numerous occasions with India shows what i am talking about. Pakistan has on several occasions complained about India reducing water flow. You can call it out mismanagement and we will call you deliberately decreasing out water, fact is our water has already been reduced and so your point is not valid.

Read on your own countries water mismanagement before commenting about fictional stories created by your leaders about the neighbor stealing your water.

Also to maintain status quo, Pakistan does not necessarily have to match bullet for a bullet. The only thing we need is to maintain a minimum credible deterrence and that we are doing and will continue to do so with or without the so called aid.

You are already maintaining the so called "Minimum credible deterrence". It is no secret that Pakistan would aspire to continue to maintain it, but as India continues to expand it's defense assets more rapidly than before, and this expansion continues to be on par with India's growth rate, the question that arises is HOW.

You may want to call it a pitiful argument or whatever, fact is the option is clearly there. And by the way before quoting me, at least read the whole argument, i clearly said if "push comes to shove" I am sure you are well familiar with the phrase. Let me repeat if push comes to shove......what makes you think we are not going to use it???

Well, for starters, Pakistan cannot afford to use the "N. Bomb". It will not only lose any kind of support from the world in general, but it will also be completely hated by it's own trusted "Islamic friends", and the "Higher than mountains, deeper than oceans" friendship with China will be destroyed. Not even USA can afford to use Nuclear bombs after Hiroshima & Nagasaki, and those bombs were much weaker compared to today's bombs. Nuclear bombs are an object of blackmail more than anything else. To use them would be more devastating than suicide.

India does but not without consequences. Firstly doing so will result in a huge international condemnation.

Agree

Secondly doing so will result in a war between India and Pakistan, because no matter how weak we are according to Indians, we are not going to just wait and watch while the whole of Pakistan gets dried up.

Are you sure about that ? If India decides to block the water, India will already have considered an eminent attack from the Paksitani side and would reinforce it's defenses in the region, especially AA defences so that it is not exactly a cake walk for Pakistan to free the dam. Even if that happens, it would be unrealistic to assume it will happen within days. Let's assume Pakistan manages to free the dams, by that time irreversible damage would already have been done, AND if the dams were to suddenly let go, it could cause another row of floods in the targeted region.

 

[Avatar]

Pure BS from a typical Bhaarti! Nobody gives a damn about poor people dying everyday from the blasts in Pakistan supported by RAW/CIA/Mossad's presence in Afghanistan?!



+1 for that quote and Abdul Basit is right. So Indians, gather up real evidence/proof on ISI/Pakistan's involvement on Mumbai attacks, other than that it was all dramay baazi.

What is REAL evidence ? Can you define it ?

 

[ehsanm1]

What is REAL evidence ? Can you define it ?

Only GoI/RAW would know...anybody could have disguised and called themselves Pakistanis...haha how funny "terrorists" came from Karachi port and simply entered India and started a chaos?

 

[IceCold]

Read on your own countries water mismanagement before commenting about fictional stories created by your leaders about the neighbor stealing your water.

Mismanagement is definitely there. I'm not one of those who will blindly follow what our sarkar have to say, but this is also no secret that India is building dams and which directly resulted in the shortage of our water. The fiction is only as per an Indian view.

You are already maintaining the so called "Minimum credible deterrence". It is no secret that Pakistan would aspire to continue to maintain it, but as India continues to expand it's defense assets more rapidly than before, and this expansion continues to be on par with India's growth rate, the question that arises is HOW.

Ohh please i have heard enough of growing Indian assets.When they do actually then talk about them, dont tell me about what will happen in the future. The gap between Indian and Pakistani armed forces is still there where it was 10 years ago. India did got the edge during the 90s because we were sanctioned but thats about it. If you see present times we have catch up pretty good In fact i would go even further to say that the gap is pretty narrowed down as of now. In fact your own air force is worried about the declining fleet numbers and loosing quantity advantage over Pakistan. Considering how procurement procedures take place in India, its only a matter of time before we further negate this gap to an absolute point where it wouldn't even matter.

Well, for starters, Pakistan cannot afford to use the "N. Bomb". It will not only lose any kind of support from the world in general, but it will also be completely hated by it's own trusted "Islamic friends", and the "Higher than mountains, deeper than oceans" friendship with China will be destroyed. Not even USA can afford to use Nuclear bombs after Hiroshima & Nagasaki, and those bombs were much weaker compared to today's bombs. Nuclear bombs are an object of blackmail more than anything else. To use them would be more devastating than suicide.

You are predicting this based on what? And if prediction is what we are going on then let me predict as well. China will veto any attempt against Pakistan in the security council, India will loose support because it initiated the war and pushed pakistan too far to a point where we were forced to use nuclear weapons, Muslims countries would not want Pakistan to get destroyed and will help us and support us in such a case.
In real life your leaders were not sure of what Pakistans response would be? It is well mentioned in their statements. It seems they dont share the same level of confidence as you do.

Are you sure about that ? If India decides to block the water, India will already have considered an eminent attack from the Paksitani side and would reinforce it's defenses in the region, especially AA defences so that it is not exactly a cake walk for Pakistan to free the dam. Even if that happens, it would be unrealistic to assume it will happen within days. Let's assume Pakistan manages to free the dams, by that time irreversible damage would already have been done, AND if the dams were to suddenly let go, it could cause another row of floods in the targeted region.

Wrong. First why would Pakistan want to destroy the dam and as a result of that cause floods. That is simply stupid. When i talk about war, it means forcing the other side to negotiate to terms which could be acceptable to both sides. If India stops our water completely, Pakistan will have no other option then to respond military. In such a case international community will be forced to enter to make sure things dont escalate to a nuclear exchange. You already do agree with me that India will face an international condemnation, which means that the world opinion will be in our favor.