India, Russia negotiating sale of S-400 missiles to India: Russian envoy

[cerberus]

he barak8 is a naval missile isnt it?

Both Naval & Land Version Exist On 10 November 2014 the Barak 8 was successfully test fired in Israel with all integrated operational components for both the marine & land system
The Barak Connection- India and Israel
Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Successfully Tested the Barak-8 Air & Missile Defense System
India successfully tests Barak 8 missile developed with Israel - Israel News, Ynetnews

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

balistic missiles are over rated. and if your adversary is only next to you then cruise missiles are the way to go as they are harder to detect where as balistic/tatical missiles are easy to identify and is expected. i would imagine pakistan has understood this. as has acted accordingly in terms of slbm's among others. but it does have some interesting balistic missiles that can be used instead. no offence here lad i admire india and all, but i find it quiet humerous when you invest in somthing big expensive ans hardcore but pakistan showcases somthing that will give it a run for it money at a fraction of the cost. when you showed of you indeginous aircraft carrier they showed of the cm-400akg. thats what i admre about pakistan its country may be a mess but when it comes to the armed forces as a whole it's very professional.

Its extremely stupid idea to rely on cruise missile for nuclear deterrence especially that to second strike capability. The whole reason for ICBMs being developed by USA.
This is done by Pakistan to compensate for a lack of resources in case of SLBMs.

While cruise missiles are difficult to detect, but once detected very easy to bring down by even with cheap 80s SAMs.

The comparison of cm-400akg and AC is illogical like comparing apples with oranges.

While cm-400akg purpose is to achieve some level of deterrence against an AC, the purpose of an AC is naval power projection, which can never be achieved by cm-400akg.

Just because one has a shoulder mounted SAM which neutralizes enemy airforce threat to a small extent, would that mean, one would not procure any fighter jets or planes for that matter?

 

[Blue Marlin]

Its extremely stupid idea to rely on cruise missile for nuclear deterrence especially that to second strike capability. The whole reason for ICBMs being developed.
This is done by Pakistan to compensate for a lack of resources in case of SLBM.

While cruise missiles are difficult to detect, but once detected very easy to bring down by even with cheap 80s SAMs.

The comparison of cm-400akg and AC is illogical like comparing apples with oranges.

While cm-400akg purpose is to achieve some level of deterrence against an AC, the purpose of an AC is naval power projection, which can never be achieved by cm-400akg.

Just because one has a shoulder mounted SAM which neutralizes enemy airforce threat to a small extent, would that mean, one would not procure any fighter jets or planes for that matter?

to be frank its the opposite. cruise missiles are very hard to detect unlike balistic missiles. pakistani balistic missiles are the primary method attack when it gets ugly. hence why you guys are developing abm's.
how long will it take for you guys to detect cruise missiles before its too late? cruise missile have a very good reputation for being stealthy. i highly doubt you guys will detect a cruise missile before its too late.

please dont talk about apple and oragnes i find it a method of accute trolling. the cm400 is made for "slow moving targets of high value" now what could that be?
where did manpads come in i did not mention them.

 

[hussain0216]

to be frank its the opposite. cruise missiles are very hard to detect unlike balistic missiles. pakistani balistic missiles are the primary method attack when it gets ugly. hence why you guys are developing abm's.
how long will it take for you guys to detect cruise missiles before its too late? cruise missile have a very good reputation for being stealthy. i highly doubt you guys will detect a cruise missile before its too late.

please dont talk about apple and oragnes i find it a method of accute trolling. the cm400 is made for "slow moving targets of high value" now what could that be?
where did manpads come in i did not mention them.

The problem india has isnt balistic or cruise missiles its the fact that Pakistan is next door

They can try to defend against the missiles but when they are coming in hot and heavy from next door then chances of missiles hitting targets and ABM shields which are far from perfect missing missiles is high

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

to be frank its the opposite. cruise missiles are very hard to detect unlike balistic missiles. pakistani balistic missiles are the primary method attack when it gets ugly. hence why you guys are developing abm's.
how long will it take for you guys to detect cruise missiles before its too late? cruise missile have a very good reputation for being stealthy. i highly doubt you guys will detect a cruise missile before its too late.

please dont talk about apple and oragnes i find it a method of accute trolling. the cm400 is made for "slow moving targets of high value" now what could that be?
where did manpads come in i did not mention them.

Manpads were used as an analogy.

If cruise missiles are an elixir, why did the Americans shift to ICBMs for nuclear deterrence?

SM-62 Snark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a very good reason, why no major nuclear power relies on cruise missile for its nuclear deterrence.

The point I was making on CM400 was

Just because Chinese have announced a ASBM, would USA abandon its carriers?

Just because cyber attacks can be executed against C4ISR military command, does that mean USA should shift to analog means of communications for C2C?

 

[Blue Marlin]

The problem india has isnt balistic or cruise missiles its the fact that Pakistan is next door

They can try to defend against the missiles but when they are coming in hot and heavy from next door then chances of missiles hitting targets and ABM shields which are far from perfect missing missiles is high

exactly my point i said that in one of my posts, but in a differant context

Manpads were used as an analogy.

If cruise missiles are an elixir, why did the Americans shift to ICBMs for nuclear deterrence?

SM-62 Snark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a very good reason, why no major nuclear power relies on cruise missile for its nuclear deterrence.

The point I was making on CM400 was

Just because Chinese have announced a ASBM, would USA abandon its carriers?

Just because cyber attacks can be executed against C4ISR military command, does that mean USA should shift to analog means of communications for C2C?

the snark wasa failure from the start. te ua and russia are very far from each other and if the usa fired cruise missiles it would take literally hour to reach the target whilst icbm ould reach the target in 30 mins tops world wide.

im not a a fan of your analogies they dont make sense.

 

[Abingdonboy]

the barak8 is a naval missile isnt it?

It is but it is being developed with land versions too:

 

[Blue Marlin]

It is but it is being developed with land versions too:

yes i know that but i think india is in no position to induct them for land based use. dont you have the akash missile that similar to the barak 8?

 

[cerberus]

yes i know that but i think india is in no position to induct them for land based use. dont you have the akash missile that similar to the barak 8?

who told you that India is already in development Phase of LR Sam Land version
" IAI officials said the successful tests show that the Barak 8 is ready for delivery to the buyers, including the Indian Air Force.The tests in India significantly advanced the development of the land version of Barak 8 which, much like the Iron Dome, will also be mobile and deployed with radars and launchers mounted on trucks or naval vessels".
India successfully tests Barak 8 missile developed with Israel - Israel News, Ynetnews

PS:Threat Envelope of Akash is 35-60 KM which SR-SAM and India Want LR SAM which has threat protection Envelope of 150 KM+that Barak-8 Offers

 

[Abingdonboy]

yes i know that but i think india is in no position to induct them for land based use. dont you have the akash missile that similar to the barak 8?

Land based BARAK-8 for the IA and IAF was always part of the plan, the LR-SAM requirement for the IN simply came first. The IAF and IA designates the BARAK-8 as a MR-SAM (SR-SAM being taken care of by the SPYDER)

Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) has undertaken joint development of missiles viz. Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LRSAM) for Indian Navy and Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) for Indian Air Force with M/s Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), Israel
Long-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LRSAM)



-------------------
India has decided to replace Russian-made air defense systems with Israeli licenced medium-range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) system for the Indian Army.

According to reports the land version of Israeli MRSAM to be jointly produced in India, would be an extension of the ongoing Air Force MRSAM project.

The missiles are to be inducted by 2017 and initially at least one regiment (18 systems) of MRSAMs at a cost of $1.5 billion is to be inacted. The total cost would go more than six billion dollars.

The Agreement was reached recently when Israeli defence minsiter Moshe Ya’alon who visited New Delhi on Feb. 22.

Negotiations for developing the land version had been put on hold two years ago following delays in the Air Force project. However, several rounds of negotiations between Indian and Israeli officials during the last six months have finalized the joint development agreement for the land version, the source added.

The MRSAM systems will reportedly be jointly developed by India’s state-owned defense research agency, the Defence Research and Development Organization, and Rafael and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) of Israel.

According to defence experts Indian armed forces is planning to deploy more powerful MRSAM to defend mechanized formations operating in the plains and desert regions, perhaps to deploy during its ‘cold start’ strategy.

India and Israel are also considering to jointly produce the air version of MRSAM.

In addition to MRSAM, Indian and Israeli defence ministers also reached an fresh understanding to modification in co-development of Barak 8 missile defence system and work on another key project of aerial defence systems was on track.

INDIA TO REPLACE RUSSIAN AIR DEFENCE WITH ISRAELI MRSAM - Missile ThreatMissile Threat

i highly doubt you guys will detect a cruise missile before its too late.

please dont talk about apple and oragnes i find it a method of accute trolling. the cm400 is made for "slow moving targets of high value" now what could that be?
where did manpads come in i did not mention them.

Without getting into another CM-400 vs Indian CBG thread, I'd say that going into the future the IN stands a very good chance of first detecting and then killing any cruise missiles coming at them.

To detect, the IN's CBGs will have EL/M-2248 MF-STAR and RAN-40L VSRs which are amongst the finest naval radars in service today, coupled with AEW systems like the Ka-31 or E-2D. And to "kill" any such threats the IN has the LR-SAM (BARAK-8) with an active seeker- one of, if not the, most advanced naval SAM in service to day with an engagement envelope of 500m to 90KM (and in the future 150+).

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Blue Marlin India is in the process of entirely revampaing its air defence systems:

Man-portable VSHORADs (<10km)- IGLA-S and SAAB RBS-70 (latter looks most likely)

QR-SAM (15km)- MAITRI

SR-SAM(15-40km)- Akash and SYPDER-SR (ASTRA-VL also under development)
http://idrw.org/vl-astra-based-air-defence-system-will-be-offered-source/

MR-SAM (90-100km)- BARAK-8

LR-SAM (150km)- BARAK-8ER

LR-SAM+ (200km+)- DRDO next-gen SAM and S-400
DRDO plans advanced missiles - The Hindu

BMDS- Indian BMDS (based on PAD and using Swordfish radar)



Like I said- it's a floor to ceiling plan.

@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @SpArK @Skull and Bones @knight11 @mkb95 @Levina @ni8mare please add anything I've overlooked.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

A well knitted air defence system containing of S400, AAD, PAD, PDV, Cruise Missile Defence, Brarak8, Spyder and Akash supported by the best radars from Russia , West and India will be our actual deterrent. (Not the nuke option )

@PARIKRAMA it seems we will eventually manufacture or at least assemble the India specific S400 in India itself. Do you see going it the Mki way, getting some western components and over the time working with Russians to improve it too.

S400 will ensure that we take out the aircrafts for sure, for ABM role we need to keep working on AAD , PAD, PDV.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

A well knitted air defence system containing of S400, AAD, PAD, PDV, Cruise Missile Defence, Brarak8, Spyder and Akash supported by the best radars from Russia , West and India will be our actual deterrent. (Not the nuke option )

@PARIKRAMA it seems we will eventually manufacture or at least assemble the India specific S400 in India itself. Do you see going it the Mki way, getting some western components and over the time working with Russians to improve it too.

S400 will ensure that we take out the aircrafts for sure, for ABM role we need to keep working on AAD , PAD, PDV.

We should with AlmazAntey tie up with Reliance ADAG for TorM1 production, i firmly believe we will end up getting more types under MII.. Missiles i am sure BDL tie up would happen..

I believe Phase 1 order is 5 systems from Russia and Phase 2 would see some 7+ systems under MII.. Eventually we will add more...

@Blue Marlin India is in the process of entirely revampaing its air defence systems:

Man-portable VSHORADs (<10km)- IGLA-S and SAAB RBS-70 (latter looks most likely)

QR-SAM (15km)- MAITRI

SR-SAM(15-40km)- Akash and SYPDER-SR (ASTRA-VL also under development)
http://idrw.org/vl-astra-based-air-defence-system-will-be-offered-source/

MR-SAM (90-100km)- BARAK-8

LR-SAM (150km)- BARAK-8ER

LR-SAM+ (200km+)- DRDO next-gen SAM and S-400
DRDO plans advanced missiles - The Hindu

BMDS- Indian BMDS (based on PAD and using Swordfish radar)



Like I said- it's a floor to ceiling plan.

@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @SpArK @Skull and Bones @knight11 @mkb95 @Levina @ni8mare please add anything I've overlooked.

You are correct my friend..
I said something similar

Reliance, AlmazAntey to work jointly on AD Missile systems

Its awesome you added VSHORAD in that list.. Its a very critical component..

few more things required are

1. Hub and Spoke model for a network of radars for detecting multiple threats.
2. A QRSAM closer to border for taking out incoming low flying, terrain hugging profiles be it CM or ARM
3. A dedicated 3 satellites+ 1 standy for whole country and region surveillance, early warning and real time feeds.. That connects to our centralized network.
4. Phase 1 and Phase 2 of BMD needing full time operationalization

We need a far more spider web like radar ring over entire country.. This needs dedicated time and investment.

@Blue Marlin
Apologies in advance for a long post.. You have quoted some really good points.. Some of which we did discuss in other threads.. Its fascinating how a BMD actually raises the cost of war exponentially..

S-400, Saturation attack, ARM, CM, etc etc
Of course in case of a saturation attack any Missile Shield will fail.. The question to ask s how many missiles are needed for such a saturation attack.. For S-400, the CMs and ARMS has to be much larger in numbers for a precise pinpointing by aerial decoys for a radar to light up and ARM to attack.. Now consider simply a lo-lo-lo flightpath for a CM or a ARM.. The considerable decrease in range means your flying asset has to come in much closer to being undetected and safely engage.. That is a very difficult task.. Yes you are correct about geography.. But then again S-400 radar can be 100-150 Kms inside India and still give a complete Airspace superiority over Pakistan owing to being next door neighbours and plains instead of hilly/mountain region. In the mountain part of Pakistan the width of the nation is less so with height/mountain//shadow playing with radars still effectively it can be countered.. Of course threat perception is much higher in such a region owing to lesser distance of detection and time of engagement..

Important to ask for say Raad or ARM or any other AShM, how many of the individual numbers can each aircraft fire? Bcz PAF/PN dont have any heavy fighter so a limitation will come into play.. Thereby helping us neutralize this number of incoming hostiles..

Secondly, even if one radar is taken out it provides an opening for aerial assets or ground forces to move in.. Now with MKIs patrolling as air dominance role as secondary, the other S-400 will detect the rest of incursion.. Assuming all S-400 radars taken out by ARM, IAF fighters come in for playing.. The numbers of jets outdo the effect even more.. On top a multi layered BMD will trigger other units of SAMs..

I am again saying its not that it cannot be penetrated.. The cost of doing that is humongous.. Its a perfect Shield and Sword strategy.. To defeat and break Shield you require serious powerful and costly weapons.. Purely on conventional terms..

About CM400 AKG..

Four different posts.. each talking about MFSTAR, Barak 8 and different missile detection and shoot down based on speed and time of detection.. CM400AKG atm is not a threat to us owing to Barak 8 speed itself being much superior to my taking into consideration just Mach 2.. Whereas its having a dual pulse motor giving it a push in last 20-25% of its flight path a terminal speed in excess of Mach 5-7.. ..


Post 1:
LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 4

Post 2: LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6

Post 3:LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6

Post 4:LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 7

 

[Blue Marlin]

We should with AlmazAntey tie up with Reliance ADAG for TorM1 production, i firmly believe we will end up getting more types under MII.. Missiles i am sure BDL tie up would happen..

I believe Phase 1 order is 5 systems from Russia and Phase 2 would see some 7+ systems under MII.. Eventually we will add more...



You are correct my friend..
I said something similar

View attachment 293878
Reliance, AlmazAntey to work jointly on AD Missile systems

Its awesome you added VSHORAD in that list.. Its a very critical component..

few more things required are

1. Hub and Spoke model for a network of radars for detecting multiple threats.
2. A QRSAM closer to border for taking out incoming low flying, terrain hugging profiles be it CM or ARM
3. A dedicated 3 satellites+ 1 standy for whole country and region surveillance, early warning and real time feeds.. That connects to our centralized network.
4. Phase 1 and Phase 2 of BMD needing full time operationalization

We need a far more spider web like radar ring over entire country.. This needs dedicated time and investment.

@Blue Marlin
Apologies in advance for a long post.. You have quoted some really good points.. Some of which we did discuss in other threads.. Its fascinating how a BMD actually raises the cost of war exponentially..

S-400, Saturation attack, ARM, CM, etc etc
Of course in case of a saturation attack any Missile Shield will fail.. The question to ask s how many missiles are needed for such a saturation attack.. For S-400, the CMs and ARMS has to be much larger in numbers for a precise pinpointing by aerial decoys for a radar to light up and ARM to attack.. Now consider simply a lo-lo-lo flightpath for a CM or a ARM.. The considerable decrease in range means your flying asset has to come in much closer to being undetected and safely engage.. That is a very difficult task.. Yes you are correct about geography.. But then again S-400 radar can be 100-150 Kms inside India and still give a complete Airspace superiority over Pakistan owing to being next door neighbours and plains instead of hilly/mountain region. In the mountain part of Pakistan the width of the nation is less so with height/mountain//shadow playing with radars still effectively it can be countered.. Of course threat perception is much higher in such a region owing to lesser distance of detection and time of engagement..

Important to ask for say Raad or ARM or any other AShM, how many of the individual numbers can each aircraft fire? Bcz PAF/PN dont have any heavy fighter so a limitation will come into play.. Thereby helping us neutralize this number of incoming hostiles..

Secondly, even if one radar is taken out it provides an opening for aerial assets or ground forces to move in.. Now with MKIs patrolling as air dominance role as secondary, the other S-400 will detect the rest of incursion.. Assuming all S-400 radars taken out by ARM, IAF fighters come in for playing.. The numbers of jets outdo the effect even more.. On top a multi layered BMD will trigger other units of SAMs..

I am again saying its not that it cannot be penetrated.. The cost of doing that is humongous.. Its a perfect Shield and Sword strategy.. To defeat and break Shield you require serious powerful and costly weapons.. Purely on conventional terms..

About CM400 AKG..

Four different posts.. each talking about MFSTAR, Barak 8 and different missile detection and shoot down based on speed and time of detection.. CM400AKG atm is not a threat to us owing to Barak 8 speed itself being much superior to my taking into consideration just Mach 2.. Whereas its having a dual pulse motor giving it a push in last 20-25% of its flight path a terminal speed in excess of Mach 5-7.. ..


Post 1:
LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 4
View attachment 293884
View attachment 293885



Post 2: LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6


View attachment 293881 View attachment 293882

Post 3:LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6
View attachment 293883

Post 4:LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 7
View attachment 293887

well yes i dont like long posts nor do i like spending my time on writing long posts, thats dyslexia for you ehh.
well your right to an extent. yes the s400 has a radar range of 400km but is that the entire dome spectrum. this is where i said a russain buddy of mine told me a low level missile either cm or arm would be detected at 25 km. as for pakistan i know up north from lahore is full of huge hill and mountains thats a gap there. also what are the chances of a pathway.... very high. i had the opportunity to visit Pakistan a couple of years ago. i am no so sure about southern pakistan but i doubt thats mountainous as the thar desert ins in rajastan and sindh. as for the cm400 and the barak8. two high speed missiles are not a good mix. thats why its at mach 2 not to slow and not to fast. isreal is not stupid enough to have a missile go really fast. as the adversary will be too really fast. what are the chances of a successful interception if both of them are at mach 5 ish. near enough impossible when you take into consideration the cm400's trajectory and the maneuverability at terminal velocity. but again isreal is not stupid so will probably have air burst warheads like the iron dome to increase the kill radius. this may help if its get close enough but how close is close enough? my guess would be 6-8 ft max. but that depends if you went for the air burst warheads instead of the penetration warheads.

 

[Dash]

balistic missiles are over rated. and if your adversary is only next to you then cruise missiles are the way to go as they are harder to detect where as balistic/tatical missiles are easy to identify and is expected. i would imagine pakistan has understood this. as has acted accordingly in terms of slbm's among others. but it does have some interesting balistic missiles that can be used instead. no offence here lad i admire india and all, but i find it quiet humerous when you invest in somthing big expensive ans hardcore but pakistan showcases somthing that will give it a run for it money at a fraction of the cost. when you showed of you indeginous aircraft carrier they showed of the cm-400akg. thats what i admre about pakistan its country may be a mess but when it comes to the armed forces as a whole it's very professional.

So what do you think can counter the "Cruise" missiles from Pakistan? Please suggest something to us.