India learned the hard way with INS Vikramaditya

[SrNair]

Which wouldn't be better, but still a bad decision by the navy. Even if, it was the Russian who decided why which yard should do it not us, since they had their own interests in this too.



Both cases are different, the Russians didn't had any benefit from re-working the ship other than getting work for the shipyard and pay the workers. FGFA on the other side is a varient of a fighter, that they are developing for them too, so they do have an interest to get us and our money into the development, once to fund parts of it, but also to secure a useful number of exports and future upgrades.
The point we need to be careful though is, that we demand as much in return for our investments as possible, which is a matter of negotiations, rather than trust. Each side obviously will try to get the best out for them, can't blame the Russians for that.

I think IAF already made that clear .Recently they severly criticse about HAL working share in FGFA with Russ.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

For once the Bunya got out smarted by a bigger Bunya in Russian company (GM)

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

the carrier India got is just for training just like the Chinese one.
might as well right it off.
once they start making domestic carriers the Russia one should be mothballed or put in reserve, instead of paying extorted repair fees

It's not meant for training.(Indian Navy has been operating carriers with STOVL/CATOBAR for over 50 years)
Although this is the IN's first STOBAR equipped carrier it certainly wont be 'fangless'.
The maintenance will be done in India and aided by Russian technicians for the first year only.
The first domestic carrier is set to complement the 'larger' INS Vikramaditya sometime after the INS Viraat retires.

 

[sancho]

I think IAF already made that clear .Recently they severly criticse about HAL working share in FGFA with Russ.

Yes, but IAF is not the negotiator, they are dependent on what HAL but even more importantly MoD negotiates with the Russians in contracts. And now with the Russians in trouble because of the Ukraine conflict, we have to take advantage and get more out of the joint developments, FGFA, Brahmos, MTA and should even push for more joint developments. Same goes for the strategic relations with Europe or the US, they are in weak stages today because of the financial crisis years, but we still didn't took enough advantage of it and the situation for them are getting better, which means the chances for us are rudcing.

 

[C130]

It's not meant for training.(Indian Navy has been operating carriers with STOVL/CATOBAR for over 50 years)
Although this is the IN's first STOBAR equipped carrier it certainly wont be 'fangless'.
The maintenance will be done in India and aided by Russian technicians for the first year only.
The first domestic carrier is set to complement the 'larger' INS Vikramaditya sometime after the INS Viraat retires.

that's if it doesn't continue to be a problem child. you gotta wonder if it's worth to pouring into something that is subpar.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Plus if India does not agrees with market price they can always return the aircraft carrier back to Russia

 

[SrNair]

Yes, but IAF is not the negotiator, they are dependent on what HAL but even more importantly MoD negotiates with the Russians in contracts. And now with the Russians in trouble because of the Ukraine conflict, we have to take advantage and get more out of the joint developments, FGFA, Brahmos, MTA and should even push for more joint developments. Same goes for the strategic relations with Europe or the US, they are in weak stages today because of the financial crisis years, but we still didn't took enough advantage of it and the situation for them are getting better, which means the chances for us are rudcing.

Our diplomats are always a failure for hectic negotiations .For issues like this you should use your maximum leverage ,but our underpowered MEA is always confused when time arises.Hope our present Govt do something about it.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

that's if it doesn't continue to be a problem child. you gotta wonder if it's worth to pouring into something that is subpar.

It is a project of colossal magnitude.
Expecting zero problems would have been delusional.
This was new to Sevmash,too.(They last built a vessel of this size in the 80's,IIRC)
The carrier is not 'subpar',it a very important pawn in the IN's long term objective. (of operating three Aircraft Carriers)
And it(INS Vikramaditya's air wing) has given the IN a much safer alternative to the Sea Harrier.(The package included the rotary and fixed air wing)

 

[Jf Thunder]

AC is an AC, no matter what kind of AC it is. I would be happy even if Pakistan has a light craft carrier

 

[C130]

It is a project of colossal magnitude.
Expecting zero problems would have been delusional.
This was new to Sevmash,too.(They last built a vessel of this size in the 80's,IIRC)
The carrier is not 'subpar',it a very important pawn in the IN's long term objective. (of operating three Aircraft Carriers)
And it(INS Vikramaditya's air wing) has given the IN a much safer alternative to the Sea Harrier.

it is what it is. a retrofit missile/heli carrier. it's better than nothing, but subpar compared to Nimitiz/Queen Elizabeth class.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Sevmash did a lot damage to entire Russian defense industry .Look How much deals are signed between India and Western nations ?
All of that perhaps would find their way to Russian pockets .But that single act of extortionary tactics costed them very well.
Now looking in to FGFA .India already lose their trust towards Russian partners now it is India's turn and recently IAF already gave them enough sweat by saying about a possible backing from FGFA project.

But India also did a lot of stupidity .During tendering time there was a lot other shipyards that is experienced in Surface ship construction ,but our dumb Indian officials found out Sevmash because of their lower bid status and didnt care about their Subs only field.
And shit happened.

Its not all as the Defence News says; nor as some of us are inclined to believe.
Yes, Sevmash did not have experience in building or re-building Carriers, just as the Nikolayev Yard had been handed over to Ukraine.
Similarly, the initial assessment of the scope of work was incomplete; while closer examination expanded that. But the IN also insisted on renovation and renewal of much more than was initially envisaged. Resulting in replacement of a great deal of equipment and large structural changes. So both sides learned some lessons the hard way.
OTOH, nobody would have sold a similar sized Carrier for 2.2 Billion.
But lessons have been learned which are valuable; Sevmash is now able consider building Carriers while the IN was able to absorb some design changes which have gone into IAC1 and the later designs.

We just couldn't pronounce long weird names even English people can't spelling it correctly or Russia find it very funny. Let's answer my questions please, not names.

Does illiteracy need to get answered? It needs an education instead.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

it is what it is. a retrofit missile/heli carrier. it's better than nothing, but subpar compared to Nimitiz/Queen Elizabeth class.

It fits into the IN's fleet structure.(and I presume that they have no intentions of entering into dic* measuring contests with others)
It's not a simple retrofit,it is basically a new ship(albeit at an exorbitant price tag)

 

[SrNair]

Its not all as the Defence News says; nor as some of us are inclined to believe.
Yes, Sevmash did not have experience in building or re-building Carriers, just as the Nikolayev Yard had been handed over to Ukraine.
Similarly, the initial assessment of the scope of work was incomplete; while closer examination expanded that. But the IN also insisted on renovation and renewal of much more than was initially envisaged. Resulting in replacement of a great deal of equipment and large structural changes. So both sides learned some lessons the hard way.
OTOH, nobody would have sold a similar sized Carrier for 2.2 Billion.
But lessons have been learned which are valuable; Sevmash is now able consider building Carriers while the IN was able to absorb some design changes which have gone into IAC1 and the later designs.



Does illiteracy need to get answered? It needs an education instead.

Otherwise the IN revealed it cost to public without even considering the scope of work.In your perspective it is right.First of all noone give you an ACC.And considering mig 29k deal in to this .This was a good deal.But incompetency in our Govt technical circle is revealed.

 

[greatone]

it is what it is. a retrofit missile/heli carrier. it's better than nothing, but subpar compared to Nimitiz/Queen Elizabeth class.

We could not afford a Nimitz or a QE at that time and neither were they offered to us.
Gotta make the best of what we have.

 

[C130]

We could not afford a Nimitz or a QE at that time and neither were they offered to us.
Gotta make the best of what we have.

I agree