India launches its 1st indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant

[Penguin]

Acc to the trishul diagrams ALPHA has already been installed in vikramaditya.

Alpha is NOT on current Vik pics.... (plus, it does not support missiles guidance : MF star does)
MIG-29K Taking Off From Indian Navy's INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier ~ Global Military Review

 

[shuttler]

The Russian steel was contracted for as a back-up measure in case SAIL doesn't supply the indigenous steel in time.

If Russian steel is only used for backup, why the indians are complaining about it?
If indians are capable of making the required steel why the delay of completion at this stage a gigantic ironing board that floats?
If Russian is not fulfulling the contract why you people do not sue them for the breach?
If Russian is not the suppliers of steel and indians are the major suppliers, then at this stage the cost of build the 3/8 complete structure should all be kept under control! Why the over-running of budget?

As the PDF file you have seen above shows, SAIL was capable of supplying all grades of steel by the time IAC-1's keel was laid down, so it's likely all the steel of the keel comes from SAIL. The Russian deal was possibly terminated before any major consignment arrived.

a slide presentation without a date

Official sources say the hull is only 90% indigenous - there are all the reasons to believe steel is 100% indigenous. The remaining components o a hull consisting the remaining 10% may
have been foreign.

I have repeated many times the doubt on the 10% and the Keel

It's a lot better than the 5% indigenous hull that your Liaoning has, isn't it?

Liaoning is a second hand rustly block of iron bought from Ukraine.

As of your "steel is not 100% indigenous" claim - go ahead and prove it with reliable sources. Not fanboy assumptions.

I having asking you and you people are not giving satisfactory answers

There is no source to believe Russian steel was even used entirely for the keel, and you are saying Indians are downplaying Russian contribution.

yes I am having a reasonable doubt over your claims

Truly you are the leader of cheerleaders.

that are indians en masse

But why will anyone use foreign steel for a small portion of the hull when indigenous steel is already available?

if you are capable at the outset why sign the contract of steel supply with the Russians?

Only Chinese love to claim foreign R&D as theirs. You are biggest counterfeit country in the world.

Most counterfeit goods are from china

there are a mountains of threads about these B/Ss and in this thread which I am arguing is not only focusing on the indigenuity of the steel amongst other things

Go to France, and ask the Dassault CEO this question : "Can you take out a part from Rafale that is 80% steel alloy and 20% nickel alloy, change the consistency to 20% steel alloy and 80% nickel alloy, and put it back?"

The simple answer will be "no."

I have shown you with an illustration that different parts of a jet fighter can be made of different materials
This has defeated your argument of "consistency" in what you called the "airframe"
It is also true in making a sea-vessels
The Keel and flightdecks are made of specialised steel which the some part of the hull can be compromised with other types of steel

What you are suggesting is an unrealistic process - China can paint a rusting block of iron to resemble a new ship, but it's only when you tell the ship to go out to Pacific Ocean and engage US Navy in combat, will you find out that a painted-over rustbucket remains a rustbucket and nothing else.

when did I claim Liaoning is for combat? I have been all along saying Liaoning is for training and it is experimental!
When did I say Liaoning is brand new? All along I have been saying Liaoning is a second hand rusty block of iron bought from Ukraine!!!!!!
Where did I mention it is going to have combat in the Pacific against uSA?

That's why Varyag will only remain a training ship - once PLAN acquires know-how and know-why of ACC ops, and acquires a new carrier (most probably a carbon copy of the Varyag), the Liaoning will head straight to the scrapyard.

Until then it will remain confined to SCS - under continuous Liaison with the Chinese coast, never going out of sight of the coast. That's why it's called Liaoning.

That is your silly imagination about our new aircraft carrier and Liaoning is seaworthy to travel as far as she could!
You dont even have the capabilities to repair and refit your ex Gorshkov!

LOL! . The Italians do not know anything about STOBAR carriers. They were originally helping with the Advanced Defence Ship (ADS) project which were supposed to displace just around 28,000
tons, and were meant to operate Sea Harrier V/STOL planes, just like the Italian Cavour carrier.
But this plan was scrapped long ago in favour of a new 35,000-40,000 ton STOBAR CV capable of operating Russian air superiority fighters like MiG-29K.

How can Italians design a STOBAR carrier when they haven't had any experience with STOBAR carriers themselves??

You and your conspiracy theories. The design of IAC-1 was totally Indian effort. However I'm not denying the fact our designers did learn something from the Italians during their short-term interacting with them in the early 90s. But still it's unlikely this interaction proved to be of much use because the carrier India ended up building (IAC-1) is of a completely different type altogether.

Even the planes supposed to operate from the carrier are different ones.



Yes, I can see that in the small nutshell you started to build

Dont buull shyt. Italians gave you the design and other things:

Vikrant-class Indigenous Aircraft Carrier Design

In March 2004 Defence Minister George Fernandes said that the Indian navy would likely induct its first indigenously built aircraft carrier in 2011. Furthermore, by August 2004, both Defense News and Jane's Defence Weekly were reporting that the Indian Ministry of Defence had awarded a $30 million contract to Fincantieri's Naval Vessel Business Unit to help prepare the concept, design, and implementation plans for the vessel. The Italian company was awarded the contract over DCN International of France, who had originally won the contract for the design study in 1989, and Izac Construcciones Navales of Spain.

Fincantieri, through its Naval Vessel Business Unit, signed two contracts with the Indian shipyard of Cochin; the contracts relate to design and assistance during the construction of a new aircraft carrier, the "Air Defence Ship", for the Indian Navy. One of the most important players in the Indian shipbuilding industry, Cochin shipyard is active in the field of merchant and naval shipbuilding as well as ship conversions and repairs.

The first contract covered assessment of the entire ship's design and responsibility for "propulsion system integration" in addition to providing assistance to the shipyard during installation of the engines and during the successive phase of tests of integration and sea trials. During the development of the design a team of officers of the Indian Navy and engineering experts from Cochin shipyard would work in Italy together with Fincantieri technical staff at the headquarters of the Naval Vessel Business Unit.

The second contract regarded the supply of the engineering and detailed design of the ancillary propulsion systems and the ship's main plants. Again, Fincantieri would provide the shipyard with assistance while construction is in progress and during tests and trials. The two contracts were expected to cover approximately 2 years, although assistance would continue until the trials and delivery have taken place - scheduled to occur by the end of this decade.

Vikrant-class / Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) / Air Defense Ship

Comparing Liaoning to any Indian carrier is foolish and feather-brained. One is a training ship never meant to go out of sight of chinese coast, the others are ocean-going vessels that will be ready to undertake real combat operations far from homeland.

It doesnt matter the ultimate usage of your indian vessels as long as they are run by the indian navy

We don't want counterfeit cheap quality Chinese stuff in our military. We made a mistake installing those crappy firebricks from china in Gorshkov. I think they have been replaced too.

what do you mean counterfeit? We have made ships which weigh in total and per vessel tonnage a lot a lot more than indian shipyards where you depend on 90% of foreign supplies

Hmmm...how many combat sorties did Indian carrier-borne planes undertook and how many did china's planes?

How many Harriers are you having right now? How many were crashed? Do the names of "flying coffins" or "widow-makers" sound familiar to you?

Ofcourse, I agree to the fact it's an outstanding training ship. But combat operations...?

The schedule will be unfolded after Liaoning's present missions are fulfilled.

As I said, Liaoning will be a standby when other combat ready aircraft carriers are off for routine matintennance

I don't think neither the ship nor the sailors are ready for real combat ops as yet.

again when did I say Liaoning is for combat right now? dont repeat and repeat this nonsense!

People on Indian carriers are real officers - not untrained trainees as on your training ship.

Not to worry as long as they are from indian navy

Our officers serve on other Navy vessels before Liaoning

Pure troll and cheerleading comment. Again shows the level of your frustration and desperation.

Even this "rare specie" is about to join the ranks of cheerleaders as shown before and after. I hope not but what a pity!

North Korean Kim did not celebrate with a 30% complete missile. cheerleading indians have broken the world's record!

So are you the fifth "elite member" ? after uk usa russia and france?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Dont buull shyt. Italians gave you the design and other things:

Did you not read your own article you're show ? The two contracts are for.

The first contract covered assessment of the entire ship's design and responsibility for "propulsion system integration" in addition to providing assistance to the shipyard during installation of the engines and during the successive phase of tests of integration and sea trials. During the development of the design a team of officers of the Indian Navy and engineering experts from Cochin shipyard would work in Italy together with Fincantieri technical staff at the headquarters of the Naval Vessel Business Unit.

The second contract regarded the supply of the engineering and detailed design of the ancillary propulsion systems and the ship's main plants. Again, Fincantieri would provide the shipyard with assistance while construction is in progress and during tests and trials. The two contracts were expected to cover approximately 2 years, although assistance would continue until the trials and delivery have taken place - scheduled to occur by the end of this decade.

Where does it say that they designed the whole ship? Them evaluating the ships design doesnt equal them designing the ship.


This is what you need to understand -----

The ship, which will be a length of 260 m and breadth of 60 m, has been designed by Directorate of Naval Design and is being built at Cochin Shipyard Limited.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...tony-kochi-shipyard-indian-navy/1/298981.html

Given the strict control regimens maintained by the countries having advanced defence production capabilities, the Directorate of Naval Design, Indian Navy’s design organization and the design team of CSL took it upon themselves to design a modern aircraft suited to India’s requirement.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/ins-vikrant-–-indias-new-giant-in-the-seas_868532.html

Designed by the Directorate of Naval Design, the aircraft carrier can operate a combination of Russian MiG-29K, Ka31 and the indigenous light combat aircraft. It will be powered by two LM2500 gas turbines. The design incorporates highly automated systems for machinery operation, ship navigation and survivability.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/vikrantclassaircraft/

 

[Abingdonboy]

Mmmm. That radar may be used for gunnery control but not necessarily for missile control. Then again, Barak 2/8 has AESA ARH/IIR so doesn't need target illumation for homing. Ok. Still, on the Vikramaditya, realistically, the only place to put missiles and a VLU is ... where you suggest the radar will come.

MF-STAR is used on Kolkata and is says "Active and Semi active missile support"
http://www.iai.co.il/34481-36668-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumber_Products-ELM.aspx?btl=1

I do not see this with the Alpha radar.....
http://www.iai.co.il/34481-36669-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumber_Products-ELM.aspx?btl=1

So really, I expect 16 barak and 1 radar director.

MF-STAR will also be on the P-17A and IAC-1.



Got any more literature on the MF-STAR sir? I've read the IAI two page brochure on it about 10 times!


And wrt all your points- we'll just have to wait and see

 

[Mav3rick]

well you are senior member and u talk like that he he he what can i say

1. we just dont have the russian BVRs we have french , israeli and osme others aswell we dont disclose all and russian ones are very leathel if you want to beleve they are worthless then be happy in your lala land its good for us in a way

2. do you have any idea about the EW suites and jaamers indian MKIs , Migs & M2Ks carry and there power against what you have

3.Pakistan is not the onli country to field AWACS planes your swedish ones are not working and you have no chances of upgrading or raking up there numbers & what you feel about owr Russian BVRs your chinese stuff then is a laughing stalk of the world and every one knows the power of phalcons (which can track all pakistani air space while bieng at least 50KMs inside indian border), Green pines & latest French radars what we have

4. The thread is about Indian AC and for your information it will have at least 4 K31 AWAC helis on board with 20 MIG 29 Ks whos fighting radius is 850KMs withowt external feul load + they can detect & trac and strike well before your fighter planes carrying your chinese carrier killers see them

5.Indian Land based & Aerostat Radar's well within (50 KMs) indian territory can and are tracking all your air space as far as sarghoda and not to forget the Indian ACs will be having the very best Israeli ASEA Radars on board + the PESA Radar on board the other ships escorting it ready to fire at your planes if ever they are able avade the MIG 29 Ks

so all owr ACs and future acquisitions(rafale & FGFA) are for China not pakistan

to choke pakistani sea lines onli owr jamnagar base is enof and there is nothing you could do about it as niether you have technology nor numbers deu to empty pockets + your biggest asset in this field has abondened and sanctioned you tell me what & how will you counter indian navies threat please im waiting ....Thanks

So basically, according to your belief, we are sitting ducks.

Hmm....

 

[Mav3rick]

We had the Mig 29s equipped with R27 during Kargil where you did not have any BVR on the F 16s. You can read it up on almost all the neutral sites like the FAS, Globalsecurity and ACIG just to name a few.

The problem is that you kids just don't understand. What was the point of acquisition of BVR capability by PAF if we did not have any BVRAAMs in late 90's? Up till May 1998, nobody knew we had the atomic bomb either!!

 

[Penguin]

Ok, I did find some pics of model with something in the position behind the stack, which could be an additional radar. Still, these models show no indication of ANY vlu's for a SAM (and the Barak-2/8 story on Thrishul mentions 48 missiles, which means 6 x 8-cell VLU.

Also

 

[indiatester]

The problem is that you kids just don't understand. What was the point of acquisition of BVR capability by PAF if we did not have any BVRAAMs in late 90's? Up till May 1998, nobody knew we had the atomic bomb either!!

Lot of people did know and publicly too.
Larry Pressler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"the "Pressler Amendment", which banned most economic and military assistance to Pakistan unless the President certified on an annual basis that[15] “Pakistan does not possess a nuclear explosive device and that the proposed United States assistance program will reduce significantly the risk that Pakistan will possess a nuclear explosive device.”[16] No President has issued this certification since October 1989. When President George H. W. Bush determined that Pakistan had developed such a weapon, aid and many commercial relations to Pakistan were cut off."

 

[Mav3rick]

Lot of people did know and publicly too.
Larry Pressler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"the "Pressler Amendment", which banned most economic and military assistance to Pakistan unless the President certified on an annual basis that[15] “Pakistan does not possess a nuclear explosive device and that the proposed United States assistance program will reduce significantly the risk that Pakistan will possess a nuclear explosive device.”[16] No President has issued this certification since October 1989. When President George H. W. Bush determined that Pakistan had developed such a weapon, aid and many commercial relations to Pakistan were cut off."

US is the big daddy, keep it out of this argument. The US even has sperm count of our politicians. Speak about yourself.

 

[indiatester]

US is the big daddy, keep it out of this argument. The US even has sperm count of our politicians. Speak about yourself.

Arey bhai... you said no body knew that Pakistan had Nuclear bomb till 1998. I was only correcting that statement. At that time US was quite close to Pakistan and even they had to back of from certification. Most of the folks already knew that Pakistan had the bomb.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

The problem is that you kids just don't understand. What was the point of acquisition of BVR capability by PAF if we did not have any BVRAAMs in late 90's? Up till May 1998, nobody knew we had the atomic bomb either!!

So why didnt they take a shot at the MiG 29s which locked horns with the F 16s?

Accept it. You neither had any BVR or any spares for the aircraft. You did have some experience flying aircrafts with BVR capability but you never had any BVR weapons. Remember that you were under arms embargo since the late 1989. That is why the last consignment of F16s were exchanged with bags of wheat. Peacegate IV rings any bells in your head?

On a personal note...You act more childish than many in this forum. And stop going around calling everyone a kid before even knowing them.

 

[Tshering22]

So basically, according to your belief, we are sitting ducks.

Hmm....

Not quite the sitting ducks but ducks that are supposed to be fighting to keep their pond intact rather than pushing for taking over other ponds.

So let's keep it that way.

 

[Gessler]

If Russian steel is only used for backup, why the indians are complaining about it?

We never "complained" about it. Sure we were upset but the indigenous steel was ready so there was no reason to complain.

If indians are capable of making the required steel why the delay of completion at this stage a gigantic ironing board that floats?

Personally, I never expected this ship to be completed any sooner than how it is being done now. It were only the shipyard authorities which gave unrealistic figures about the completion date. But however Indian Navy was always suspicious of their claims.

It is also probably for this reason that IN pressed MoD to work a deal with Russia as a back-up measure incase SAIL delays supply of indigenous steel. But Russia was unable to supply the steel in time, so the contract was terminated. But Indian steel was available for use when the time came for building the keel. So things did not erupt into a flame war between the two countries.

If Russian is not fulfulling the contract why you people do not sue them for the breach?

There is no liability or need for a lawsuit. The contract termination was mutually agreed because -

1) The Russian companies involved in the deal had expressed their inability to supply the packages.

2) Indian steel was available from within the country, at a cheaper price (no import duties), so it would have been foolish if we pressed the Russians to deliver their steel when indigenous steel is also available. This was a good opportunity for increasing role of domestic companies in shipbuilding.

So the contract between India/Russia was terminated after a mutual agreement. As per rule, if you are not able to supply the package, the contract value must be returned to the customer. I guess that was done already.

So there are no grounds for a lawsuit. Hope that solves your problem.

If Russian is not the suppliers of steel and indians are the major suppliers, then at this stage the cost of build the 3/8 complete structure should all be kept under control! Why the over-running of budget?

Probably due to the fall of Rupee,,,but I'm not sure.

I have repeated many times the doubt on the 10% and the Keel

10% is foreign, that is for sure. But no reason to believe it would be the keel because -

1) Russians were unable to supply the steel for ANY part of the ship

2) Indian steel was already available before the time keel was being built.

Liaoning is a second hand rustly block of iron bought from Ukraine.

Yep, and deep down inside, it's still a rusty block of iron no matter how much paint you apply on it.

I having asking you and you people are not giving satisfactory answers

There cannot be a satisfactory answer for your baseless questions.

yes I am having a reasonable doubt over your claims

Your doubts are just as baseless as your questions, period.

that are indians en masse

Not as much as you. Atleast we talk about a real ocean-going ship that would actually be able to undertake combat ops. Chinese members celebrate so much about a training ship that never
goes out of sight of Chinese coast.

if you are capable at the outset why sign the contract of steel supply with the Russians?

Explained above.

I have shown you with an illustration that different parts of a jet fighter can be made of different materials
This has defeated your argument of "consistency" in what you called the "airframe"

As I expected, you cannot comprehend simple facts.

It is true that a plane (or a ship) is made of different types of metals in different quantities. Nowadays, there are composites (several types of metals mixed together to form super-strong structures that are greatly resistant to corrosion etc.) used in planes as well as ships (but I don't think Varyag has any of them).

BUT, you cannot take apart the entire rusting airframe of a fighter an replace the airframe with a new one.

You can only do that when you build successive tranches of planes, each tranche bringing some improvement over the last one.

Similarly, in Varyag, you can paint over a rusting block - but you never took apart the whole ship and replaced the contents of the hull with new ones. The pictures show that.

It is also true in making a sea-vessels
The Keel and flightdecks are made of specialised steel which the some part of the hull can be compromised with other types of steel

Yet, the whole ship needs to adhere to certain standards in respect to the metal alloys used.

And these standards are always changing. Varyag adheres to 1980s Soviet standards, IAC-1 adheres to 21st century Western standards.

when did I claim Liaoning is for combat? I have been all along saying Liaoning is for training and it is experimental!
When did I say Liaoning is brand new? All along I have been saying Liaoning is a second hand rusty block of iron bought from Ukraine!!!!!!
Where did I mention it is going to have combat in the Pacific against uSA?

Precisely! You are cheering so much about the Chinese refitting a mere training ship!

That is your silly imagination about our new aircraft carrier and Liaoning is seaworthy to travel as far as she could!
You dont even have the capabilities to repair and refit your ex Gorshkov!

I am sure even Mumbai-based MDL or Kolkata-based GRSE could have refitted the Gorshkov, but these shipyards do not know of aircraft carriers, only CSL does, CSL has already refitted INS Viraat several times.

But still MDL/GRSE could have refitted Gorshkov into Vikramaditya if the govt. pressed them to do so - but then there is the risk of the Vikramaditya turning out to be incapable of undertaking combat operations far from homeland - just like your Liaoning.

It could have went like this - while CSL is occupied with the work on IAC-1, MDL/GRSE could have refitted Gorshkov with their primitive experience with aircraft carriers, and lack of block-construction methods (at that time; they did not have this stuff, it was only a recent acquisition), and make a training ship out of Gorshkov, devoid of any combat role - this would have helped MDL/GRSE gain some experience with ACCs, but it couldn't have fulfilled IN's plan for 3 combat-capable carriers.

Therefore Russians were given the job for refitting Gorshkov while CSL build IAC-1,
looking to it that work on IN getting 2 combat-capable carriers is done simultaneously. After IAC-1 is completed, CSL will go to build N-powered IAC-2.

Dont buull shyt. Italians gave you the design and other things:

You and your alternate reality. Always trying to discredit Indian engineers' hard work.

1) I am not denying that Italians did help a bit when we were planning to build a 28,000 ton ADS ship designed to operate Sea Harrier jets, (that's what your link states) but this plan was scrapped!
The new requirements called for DND and CSL engineers to design a 40,000 ton STOBAR carrier designed to operate MiG-29K.

2) How could the Italians have helped with this? They never designed any STOBAR carrier that was meant to operate twin-engine supersonic fighters themselves! And the IAC-1 is vastly superior to
any carrier-type ship Italy has built so far!

3) You do not even know the difference between ADS and IAC.

ADS = Advanced Defence Ship
Displacement : 28,000 tons
Aircraft : BAE Sea Harrier, Westland Sea King, Kamov Ka-28
Status: Cancelled

IAC = Indigenous Aircraft Carrier
Displacement = 40,000 tons
Aircraft : Mikoyan MiG-29K, Westland Sea King, HAL Dhruv, Kamov Ka-31, Kamov Ka-28PL
Status : Launched, under construction

Italians helped a bit with ADS, but had nothing to do with IAC, regardless of what stupid people believe.

P.S. - Do not be a moron and use words like "bull shyt" unless you have a very very strong point and your opponent member is arguing with moot points. In this context, you are the one using moot points. So watch your words.

Besides, also read what @Water Car Engineer has posted to have some more insight into things.

what do you mean counterfeit? We have made ships which weigh in total and per vessel tonnage a lot a lot more than indian shipyards where you depend on 90% of foreign supplies

I was trying to say, that china always copies and steals from foreign countries and tries to pass them off as indigenous products. Indian do not no that - when we import something, we show that it has been imported officially.

How many Harriers are you having right now? How many were crashed? Do the names of "flying coffins" or "widow-makers" sound familiar to you?

About more than 1/3 of the US Marine Corps' AV-8 Harrier-II fleet has crashed due to one reason or the other. And let me tell you, we have operated our older and more cumbersome Sea Harrier fleet quite well.

If PLAN were to operate the same aircraft, 80% of the fleet would have crashed within 1 year. The Sea Harrier is a very difficult plane to handle in most circumstances, no offence meant.

As I said, Liaoning will be a standby when other combat ready aircraft carriers are off for routine matintennance

Good, it should be a standby carrier. I don't think it would be capable of doing anything more than that really.

When your new carriers sink off the coast in SCS, your sailors will pile into this ruskbucket and drive it to battle with the Gerald R. Ford-class CBGs.

again when did I say Liaoning is for combat right now? dont repeat and repeat this nonsense!

What I don't understand is - what is so great about repainting a combat-incapable ship?

I'm sure any shipyard in India can do that, so long as the carrier doesn't need to do what a real carrier is meant to do!

Our officers serve on other Navy vessels before Liaoning

Make sure Liaoning's captain remembers he's on an aircraft carrier and not a frigate or a Type-022 gunboat

It will be funny when the captain orders his carrier to ram into an enemy ship in a kamikaze-type attack, cause I'm pretty sure that's what PLAN people are trained in.

Even this "rare specie" is about to join the ranks of cheerleaders as shown before and after. I hope not but what a pity!

The only rare species on this thread is you - because I have never seen a more ignorant-to-the-fact person like you in my entire life.

So are you the fifth "elite member" ? after uk usa russia and france?

I think we are the only ones after US, Russia, France and UK to be building a carrier supposed to launch supersonic fighters.

That's what Dailymail.co.uk claimed.

 

[Mav3rick]

So why didnt they take a shot at the MiG 29s which locked horns with the F 16s?

Accept it. You neither had any BVR or any spares for the aircraft. You did have some experience flying aircrafts with BVR capability but you never had any BVR weapons. Remember that you were under arms embargo since the late 1989. That is why the last consignment of F16s were exchanged with bags of wheat. Peacegate IV rings any bells in your head?

Your Jets violate our airspace almost every month....how many times have we actually taken a shot at any of your birds? We don't take shots at Jets that do not pose direct threats! And our BVR acquisition was not from US then, we always had other sources including South Africa!!

On a personal note...You act more childish than many in this forum. And stop going around calling everyone a kid before even knowing them.

That's your opinion. However, you did come across as a child because of the childish arguments.

 

[Mav3rick]

Not quite the sitting ducks but ducks that are supposed to be fighting to keep their pond intact rather than pushing for taking over other ponds.

So let's keep it that way.

Our military doctrine has always been defensive. Even when we have initiated a conflict, the intention was always to contain it in disputed areas, upon incorrect assumptions that India will not violate the Border. But basically, our Military is raised as a defensive force.