India, China growth race 'silly', says Nobel winner

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Regardless, it is still disgraceful for 21st century India to be behind 1980's China in living standards.

No doubt!

I am asking legitimate questions. Obviously, 21st century India is far richer than 1980's China. But why the disparity?

Certain states in India have traditional suffered at the hands of incapble Govt who don't see the value of literacy

 

[RockyX]

Actually Super power is something which is Burden.

We neither have capability nor intention to become Super power.

Earlier Russia faced 50 years of Cold War with USA.

Now, China started facing same with USA. Anything China will do will create lots of news everywhere. Like A simple Aircraft carrier created so much of noise. Tomorrow, If China says anything against any of the neighbour, Next day All news agency will publish "China aggression"

We are lucky we are still behind that.

 

[lem34]

In my opinion a lot of people here are going off at a tangent. We should congratulate China. We should use China as an inspiration. If they have done well good for them. We should endeavour to make the lives of all people in the neighbourhood better. Concentrate on roof over peoples heads. Food on the table. Better health. I think it is no compensation to a poor individual who is hungry whether he be chinese or indian that one or the other country is ahead on statistics. These stats seem to matter to us on the forum then people in their every day lives.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I think you are still missing the point. Even when China was poorer than India in GDP/capita terms, literacy, infant mortality, mean years of schooling, average IQ, malnutrition, etc. were all superior to India. Why? India's lifespan TODAY, is what China's lifespan was in 1978. India's youth literacy TODAY, is far lower than China's youth literacy rate in 1980.

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_library/country_profiles/pop_cou_156.pdf

China youth literacy 1980: 90%

Literacy in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India youth literacy 2001: 82%.
Adult literacy rate 2010: 74%

This goes beyond economics. This reflects on the basic values of society. China in 1980 was undoubtably far poorer than India in 2001. Yet why was the youth literacy rate far higher than in India? This is not about poverty. This is about society.

China in the early 80's had started its migration to a new econmical mission. India was still asleep and following an outdated and unworkable economical policy. Repeating myself from my earlier post, the Indian psyche is geared on red tape and corruption which was a state promoted way of doing things. Chinese were luckier on the economical platform since they had a government which had carte blanche' in implementing their policies. Indian governments to a large extent had their hands tied down. A few simple examples would be the restrictions on rural populations and the large scale cheap labour productions in China. If these policies were attempted in India then the government would have been voted out. Not that I am saying that democracy was a stumbling block to India. There were various advantages which China held over India and these included geographical location, the fact that India was still trying to figure out where its exact borders lay years after gaining independence, a more pragmatic and populist Chinese leadership after independence compared to India, infrastructure comparisons between India and China after independence and the list goes on. The thing is that India will eventually get there. My point to Indians is that it is way too early to start regarding China as the competitor. Instead, we should be using China as the benchmark

 

[RockyX]

Definition of Super power is very confusing. GDP size, China is 2nd. Per capita wise, even Mexico is decade ahead than China.

China is doing very well in economy wise. But defence wise it's still very far away. Even a tiny country like Israel defence is very strong. U.S. has 10-11 super aircraft carrier and China don't have single. May be after 10-20 years, China defence will be very strong. But Yes, China is most potential and likely next super power.

 

[below_freezing]

Definition of Super power is very confusing. GDP size, China is 2nd. Per capita wise, even Mexico is decade ahead than China.

China is doing very well in economy wise. But defence wise it's still very far away. Even a tiny country like Israel defence is very strong. U.S. has 10-11 super aircraft carrier and China don't have single. May be after 10-20 years, China defence will be very strong.

LMAO ok so China is weak, because we don't have carrier, yet Israel is STRONG, because they have a massive carrier fleet right? What a typical inferiority complex from a brown man that thinks hes a white man. Have some self respect. I'm not going to use facts to refute your sh!t. Its self evident.

 

[Dalai Lama]

LMAO ok so China is weak, because we don't have carrier, yet Israel is STRONG, because they have a massive carrier fleet right? What a typical inferiority complex from a brown man that thinks hes a white man. Have some self respect. I'm not going to use facts to refute your sh!t. Its self evident.

I saw you use that against a Turk earlier. Gotta' keep it fresh!

 

[RockyX]

LMAO ok so China is weak, because we don't have carrier, yet Israel is STRONG, because they have a massive carrier fleet right? What a typical inferiority complex from a brown man that thinks hes a white man. Have some self respect. I'm not going to use facts to refute your sh!t. Its self evident.

No mate, China is strong. I clearly said. Indeed, China is next potential super power. But Defence wise, Still very far away if you compare with her Economy and Size of Country.

Israel don't have Super aircraft carrier. But they have almost everything they need for small country. If you read again, I clearly said China could be next super power and India don't have capability nor intention too. It was only as per Defence, China is very far. What China has, Many countries also have or in process to have. China don't have anything superior in defence as per my little knowledge.

 

[below_freezing]

China in the early 80's had started its migration to a new econmical mission. India was still asleep and following an outdated and unworkable economical policy. Repeating myself from my earlier post, the Indian psyche is geared on red tape and corruption which was a state promoted way of doing things. Chinese were luckier on the economical platform since they had a government which had carte blanche' in implementing their policies. Indian governments to a large extent had their hands tied down. A few simple examples would be the restrictions on rural populations and the large scale cheap labour productions in China. If these policies were attempted in India then the government would have been voted out. Not that I am saying that democracy was a stumbling block to India. There were various advantages which China held over India and these included geographical location, the fact that India was still trying to figure out where its exact borders lay years after gaining independence, a more pragmatic and populist Chinese leadership after independence compared to India, infrastructure comparisons between India and China after independence and the list goes on. The thing is that India will eventually get there. My point to Indians is that it is way too early to start regarding China as the competitor. Instead, we should be using China as the benchmark

I dont think the economic thing was the case. Literacy rates do not shoot up overnight. In 1980, the economic reform plan had just been formulated for a few months and wasn't even a concrete set of directions. Was the literacy rate during Mao's time very low and in 1980 suddenly shot up? No way! Foreign observers were amazed in fact at the 24 year life expectancy jump in China from 1949-1979 and the huge reduction in illiteracy. Is that a problem with democracy?

Can you name some cheap labor policies in China? Does China hold down wages, or does the suppliers and the laws of the market hold down wages? If Indians believe that cheap wages are the key to success, why does far cheaper Indian labor not get utilized? 70% of your population lives under 2 dollars a day, if they were given 5 dollars a day their wages would skyrocket and they'd still be cheap by international standards, so why not? I'm asking these pointed questions because I'm finding that many Indians still don't "get it".

 

[below_freezing]

No mate, China is strong. I clearly said. Indeed, China is next potential super power. But Defence wise, Still very far away if you compare with her Economy and Size of Country.

Israel don't have Super aircraft carrier. But they have almost everything they need for small country. If you read again, I clearly said China could be next super power and India don't have capability nor intention too. It was only as per Defence, China is very far. What China has, Many countries also have or in process to have. China don't have anything superior in defence as per my little knowledge.

I won't talk too much, just enough to get you to realize your grave error.

China is one of 3 countries in the world to have a flying 5th gen aircraft: the J-20, which was also found to have optimized stealth in most radar frequencies using physical optics simulations; though this is only an approximation, it roughly tells you how good the J-20 is. If you call that "many", then I can't say anything, I call that "a few".

China is one of 3 countries that has sent a large capsule containing a fragile package (a human) into orbit, then landed that package at a precise location. What if that package was not a human, but a nuclear warhead?

 

[Kambojaric]

The recent history of China over the past 6, 7 decades is impressive to say the least. They have an amazing discipline and are real hard working people. I know this from the several Chinese i know over here. Many of them own restaurants, and they have pretty much the same routine every day. Sometimes i wonder, when do they actually relax and chill? They are always working. Us desis on the other hand are lazy as hell and always blame our faults on others.

 

[Jade]

The fact of the matter is that every word uttered by Mr Sen in this interview makes sense. It may hurt my fellow Indian sentiment and ego but the reality is that we should not be regarding China as a competitor but rather as a benchmark to follow. If Indian lay economists persist in their mistaken belief that China is our competitor then the sad impact of that will be similar to a chess hobby player challenging a chess grandmaster.

China has a 10-15 year advantage to economic open market trade. In that time India persisted with its failed socialist, nationalisation red-taped, closed market policies. The pace of development (socially) is way too slow in India. If people do not see the benefits of market reforms at grassroot levels, then those economic reforms mean little advantage to the country. Democracy maybe a stumbling block to India as compared to China's one-party policy since economic policies maybe short term and not long term strategies. But then again, India has been run by Congress for quite awhile now so is democracy really the excuse? Instead we should be focusing on rampant corruption and extortion and red tape as the real problem. The fact of the matter is that China has patience for neither whilst all those thrive in India.

Social reform in China is not implemented in China due to the so called one-child policy. It is better implemented because there is no patience in that country for red tape and corruption. India, I have pointed out, seems to implement corruption and red tape as an official government policy.

Finally it is the mindset and the psyche of dealing with Indians as compared to Chinese in business. Indians in business generally work on "Indian time". The prices negotiated changes overnight. Goods are rarely if ever delivered on time. Chinese on the other hand project more professionalism in business. If they promise to have a shipment delivered at 9am on 12 Sept 2011, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be at the port of destination at that time on that date. Again, red tape in doing business in India is frustrating as compared with the free flow of doing business in China.

I don't think that India should be attempting an economical pissing contest with China for the next 50 years at least. Instead, India should be watching and learning from its neighbor. In Hinduism we are told to shut up and learn when the guru speaks or preaches. Perhaps India should regard China as its economical guru for now and instead of comparing itself with China, it should learn from the Chinese how to do things properly

Yes I too agree with Amartya Sen. India has so much to do. There are issues of poverty, illiteracy, etc.. to be tackled; However, taking China for a guru is absurd idea. Chinese growth policies are not good in longer terms. I prefer India to remain as it is. 8% year on year growth is not an easy task for a country such as India; we need not grow at 10% per annum. Let us grow in our way. Only growth can tackle poverty, illiteracy, child mortality and other social and developmental issues.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Yes I too agree with Amartya Sen. India has so much to do. There are issues of poverty, illiteracy, etc.. to be tackled; However, taking China for a guru is absurd idea. Chinese growth policies are not good in longer terms. I prefer India to remain as it is. 8% year on year growth is not an easy task for a country such as India; we need not grow at 10% per annum. Let us grow in our way. Only growth can tackle poverty, illiteracy, child mortality and other social and developmental issues.

Make no mistake. I am not putting India down. When I refer to China as a guru, I must restrict it to their manner of doing business, expanding their infrastructure and exit ports (When I was in Shangai I was told that it takes no longer than 12 hours to turn a ship around. In Bombay I would look at anything between 3-4 days for the same ship!), their removal of red tape since the late 70's; their impatience for corruption. Offcourse Beijing needs much more reforms to edge itself to an acceptable global player and they could take notes from India in this respect. One simple example is comparing the Shangai and Shenzen stock exchanges with the Bombay stock exchange. We have much more transparency with the Stock Exchange Commission having investigative and punitative powers whilst in China one would have to go through the lengthy courts to investigate a company sinve their SEC doesn't have that much authority. A larger younger educated population in India compared to China is also an advantage. My point is that our advantages are long term and not an immediate bonus. We only started economic reform in the 1990s whilst Beijing blue-printed it in 1978 and started in 1979. Our disadvantages are not crippling. But we need to take a book out of Beijing when it comes to infrastructure, red tape removal, no-no to corruption and beurocracy. In that regards they need to be our gurus. Their advantages are glaring and their strides are noteworthy but for us to start competing with them at this early stage of our trip is shortsighted. Hence my suggestion that we use them as a benchmark (offcourse with limitations ) and not a competitor and my agreement with Mr Sen's sentiments

 

[PlanetWarrior]

The recent history of China over the past 6, 7 decades is impressive to say the least. They have an amazing discipline and are real hard working people. I know this from the several Chinese i know over here. Many of them own restaurants, and they have pretty much the same routine every day. Sometimes i wonder, when do they actually relax and chill? They are always working. Us desis on the other hand are lazy as hell and always blame our faults on others.

I think you are being too optimistic when you say 6-7 decades. Don't underestimate desis. We outshine the Chinese when it comes to global acquisitions. Perhaps the adage of desis is to work smart and not to work hard

 

[DelhiDareDevil]

thr growth race may be silly, but as a benchmark, who else can India compare itself too?

Only China springs to mind.