India and Russia's joint military aircraft project still in limbo

[[Bregs]]

NEW DELHI: Differences between India and Russia on a key project to jointly develop a military transport aircraft (MTA) are widening, with a high level intervention likely during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow later this month to get things back on track.

Officials in both countries have shared with ET that the MTA project - which plans to develop a develop a new 20 ton transporter to replace the ageing Indian fleet of An 32 aircraft with a $ 300 million investment from each side - is on thin ground with Moscow now planning to go ahead alone if the Indian side does not come on board.

The main point of contention is the engine for the new generation transporter. Sources in India have told ET that the air force is insisting on a new generation engine with a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system to give adequate power the new plane

However, due to delays in the project, Moscow is now going ahead with a different engine, the PS 90 that powers its new generation IL 76 transporters for the MTA project. The Russian side believes that the new variant of its PS 90 engine will offer adequate performance for the aircraft and a FADEC power plant is not necessary.

With both sides not budging, the MTA project has been stuck for a year, with all other work, including the preliminary design stage stitched up. The Russian side also says that the requirement of a FADEC was put up by the Indian air force at a later stage and for the performance required, the system is not needed.

"The PS 90 does not have FADEC but the necessity of such a system was not there in the technical specifications initially. It was added later. The technical requirement (for performance) are fully satisfied with the PS 90 engine," President of Russia's overarching United Aircraft Company (UAC) Yury Slyusar told ET.

Russian experts have analyzed other available engines for the project, including western ones but insist that the PS 90 is the best solution and would provide commonality with India's upgraded IL 76 fleet.

"So the official status is that we have finished the advanced preliminary design stage over a year ago but that has to be accepted by the Indian side. We hope they accept the design and move forward," Slyusar says.

Officials in India however insist that the PS 90 would not be adequate in meeting the long term requirements of the air force, given that the MTA would remain n service for almost three decades. A possible solution to the stalemate is being considered and may be fleshed out during high level discussions that are expected during the Modi visit. One could be going ahead with the project with the development of an engine complaint to Indian requirement taking place concurrently

Read more at:
India and Russia's joint military aircraft project still in limbo - The Economic Times

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

IAF
U r in no way to demand things, as we do not have anything equivalent of PS90. If u want ask HAL to develop the engine u want or ask Western companies to provide such engines. By making unreasonable demands u guys delayed LCA and trying to derail this one too?

 

[Jai Bharat]

IAF
U r in no way to demand things, as we do not have anything equivalent of PS90. If u want ask HAL to develop the engine u want or ask Western companies to provide such engines. By making unreasonable demands u guys delayed LCA and trying to derail this one too?

Partially false:

HAL unveils engine for Trainers, Biz Jets. The HTFE-25.

The HTFE-25 is a low bypass twin spool mixed flow turbofan engine with wide chord fan blades, sports a high efficiency compressor and advanced combustor. The engine is controlled by full authority digital engine control (FADEC)

These planes are meant to last decades, they will be outdated before they are even released. HAL has comparable technology, but at not enough thrust for an MTA.

Other option is to have HAL update the Russian MTA with their own engines at a later date with FADEC, but this requires special agreement in the contract which Russia might not want to sign.

Russia is just dressing up another Soviet-era engine and calling it new. There are other options from Airbus and Boeing, better to go for those if Russia can't compete.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

 

[raktaka]

This is confusing. I was under the impression that PS 90 already has FADEC.

I think the Russians are offering the PS 90A and IAF is demanding the PS 90 A2 using western components that reduce maintenance cost by 40%.

 

[Abingdonboy]

IAF
U r in no way to demand things, as we do not have anything equivalent of PS90. If u want ask HAL to develop the engine u want or ask Western companies to provide such engines. By making unreasonable demands u guys delayed LCA and trying to derail this one too?

Really? The customer has no right to demand the specifications of the product it will pay for? These are typical Russian games, shifting around, looking to fudge some sort of sub-optimal solution based on their limitations.

 

[[Bregs]]

Really? The customer has no right to demand the specifications of the product it will pay for? These are typical Russian games, shifting around, looking to fudge some sort of sub-optimal solution based on their limitations.

Then what will be the outcome or final solution of this logjam in badly needed MRTA ?

 

[surya kiran]

I thought the engines were PD-14, an evolution of the PD-12, itself an uprated version of the PS-90A. When did this happen?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The investment clarity is not there bcz of the fact that inflow from military sales and Russia's own internal investment both are interlinked.

The moment you see India signing multimillion contracts and a small tete a tete between the NaMo and VlaPu, you will see clear movement.

I have heard clearly Tata folks accompanying PM to Russia to talk about possible cooperation for superjet and MTA projects participation. I am sure such efforts will bear results. But we do need to show more urgency more talks, more investments and less media soundbytes....

See this
Russian-Indian Multi-role transport aircraft to receive Russian engine
15 June 2015 RIA NOVOSTI
India has agreed to install the Russian PS-90 engine on the multi-role transport airplane which the two countries are developing, United Aircraft Corporation (OAC) head Yuri Slyusar told journalists on Monday.

India has agreed to install the Russian PS-90 engine on the multi-role transport airplane which the two countries are developing, United Aircraft Corporation (OAC) head Yuri Slyusar told journalists on Monday.

"The Indians have agreed to the PS-90. The project itself will replace the Antonov group of airplanes which in the near futures will begin to leave service en masse ", said Slyusar at the Aviation salon at Le Bourget (France).

The project is currently at the stage of the adoption of the preliminary design, observed the head of the corporation. He said that the OAC had "high hopes" to sign a contract on the transition to the stage for a detailed design by the end of the year.

The international agreement on the joint development and construction of a Multi-role/Medium Aircraft was signed by the Russian and Indian governments back in 2007. Over the past few years the future partners have agreed that the Russian and Indian partners would share the company 50:50 Aircraft manufacturing would be located both in Russia and in India.

The production plans envisage hat 205 aircraft will be produced, of which 30% can be exported to other countries. If everything goes to plan, then the first MTA flight will take place in 2016-2018.

The Russian Ministry of Defense expects to order 100 aircraft of this type, India – 45. This will reach the break-even level of production. The total international market potential for the MTA is estimated at 390 aircraft taking into account civil transport aircraft.

First published in Russian by RIA Novosti.
Russian-Indian Multi-role transport aircraft to receive Russian engine | Russia & India Report


Sir now tell me how new issues in PS90 is now being said if it was already agreed and published in June 2015

 

[Agent_47]

This is confusing. I was under the impression that PS 90 already has FADEC.

I think the Russians are offering the PS 90A and IAF is demanding the PS 90 A2 using western components that reduce maintenance cost by 40%.

I think you are correct here.

PS-90A2
The PS-90A2 is an advanced derivative of the PS-90A,developed in co-operation with Pratt & Whitney.[4] It has a fair proportion of western components from France, Germany, Sweden and the USA. It is also lighter than PS-90A and features improved FADEC. These features improve the performance and reduce maintenance costs by 40%. Fuel consumption is on par with current western engines, and its noise levels are below the current regulatory requirements. The PS-90A2 is the first Russian engine to be ETOPS-180 min rated. It is offered in newly built aircraft and is completely interchangeable with the PS-90A, allowing simple upgrades on present airliners.

It has the same thrust rating as the PS-90A, 16000 kgf (157 kN, 35,300 lbf) thrust. It is also capable of 18000 kgf (176 kN, 39,600 lbf) thrust.[5]

Future American involvement in engine development has been put in doubt after unwelcome attempts to block sale of PS-90A2 engines to a major Iranian customer for the type.

This is a tricky situation.
US may not allow russia and export but will be comfortable for use by IAF.

 

[raktaka]

I think you are correct here.
This is a tricky situation.
US may not allow russia and export but will be comfortable for use by IAF.

India went for the Russian MTA because it is Sanction Proof .......... so US "permission" is irrelevant.

I guess the way forward would be to go with the existing engine and then work to upgrade it to FADEC.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Really? The customer has no right to demand the specifications of the product it will pay for? These are typical Russian games, shifting around, looking to fudge some sort of sub-optimal solution based on their limitations.

We are in no situation to demand. Simple as that. Russians are experienced in Engine industry and I will prefer their word over IAF or HAL. That;s the truth.
If we want a indigenous solution like MTA we should give and take some.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We are in no situation to demand. Simple as that. Russians are experienced in Engine industry and I will prefer their word over IAF or HAL. That;s the truth.
If we want a indigenous solution like MTA we should give and take some.

The customer is always in a postion to demand- it is a buyer's market out there. India is contributing the lion's share of devlopment funds in numerous projects for Russia FGFA/PAK-FA, MRTA and before them the MiG-29K, Su-30MKI and Talwar class frigates. India shouldn't just roll over at the whim of the Russians, the ROI has to be attractive.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

The customer is always in a postion to demand- it is a buyer's market out there. India is contributing the lion's share of devlopment funds in numerous projects for Russia FGFA/PAK-FA, MRTA and before them the MiG-29K, Su-30MKI and Talwar class frigates. India shouldn't just roll over at the whim of the Russians, the ROI has to be attractive.

And what is the alternative in the AN-32 segment?
Maybe the HAL can say we will install a western engine with FADEC?! What stops them from doing so? Its a 50-50 project. Russia too has its own concern.

 

[Abingdonboy]

And what is the alternative in the AN-32 segment?
Maybe the HAL can say we will install a western engine with FADEC?! What stops them from doing so? Its a 50-50 project. Russia too has its own concern.

There isn't really an alternative in the AN-32 segment- perhaps the C-27J is the closest comparison- the MTA isn't even in the AN-32's segment.

The best case alternative is the C-130XJ now, see the disscussion:

Russia and India at odds over MTA powerplant