India - A sacred geography bound by Dharma

[KS]

I am not a nationalist, let alone a Hindu nationalist, I am just a patriot.

This is confusing. You are not a nationalist. So you are patriotic towards what ?

Hindu nationalism just seeks to unite all religions that originated in this land , which is India, in the service of India.

A small line added to better reflect the idea what Hindu nationalism claims to be its central.

Although, they should expand that to include Christians and Muslims as well so that their nationalism is all inclusive instead of leaving a few out.

Well that is quite tricky as well as a bit illogical considering that those religions DID not originate in India, nor was their past as calm and tranquil as other FnIO (faiths of non-Indian origin) like Parsis. So what at best could be tried is a system of mutual tolerance between these faiths and Hindu nationalism.

Also the issue of hindu nationalism expanding notwithstanding, are the Abrahamic concepts with their exclusive claims on the divine, capable of co-existing with the unbelievers ??...I think not..this goes against their very teachings and the centuries old behaviour of them..the present calm is due to a lack of numbers..once the numbers accrue in sufficient numbers, then fireworks begin.

But as usual, this form of nationalism is very dangerous as it is almost always misused by people who are nationalists without knowing why they are nationalists. They tend to espouse unity because of their shared bigotry than their sense of unity amongst religions. This is solely the fault of a few people, not the principle itself.

Ultimately if history is any guide, then every major power, at any time rose to ascendancy based on some form of nationalism. Be it Romans, be it Arabs, be it Mongols, be it Ottomans, be it Japan, China..anything. So if India is to become a world power, then we need some form of nationalism. And the only thing I can see practically that can be used is the Dharmic faiths. Multiculturalism in the perverse form which is practised today in India, will lead us nowhere.

ps.: Moreover, the concepts of right vs left, nationalism, nation states etc are western concepts which were developed for their specific historical context and I dont think they even gel together in the context of India. Take for example secularism. It was developed as a backlash to the suffocating, vice like grip of the church on the governance,science , persecution of learned by the church, the witch hunts etc. SO secularism was an essential concept to keep the church away from the governance. But in contrast the temples in India, even though they played an integral part in the day to day life of the people never acted as the authority and the king was not dependent on them. IN contrast it was the temples that were patronized by the king and there was no persecution of the learned, scientists in the name of God or Blasphemy. So trying to ape West with their concepts and trying to apply them in conditions which may not fit the original 'specifications' of those concepts is something that must be strongly discouraged and if possible stopped.

Coming the right vs left divide -- The traditional Right in the West was associated with dogmatic traditional values and the Left evolved as an alternative. That paradigm when applied to a country like India looks ridiculous since the Right in india is actually more liberal, open minded, understanding, and pluralistic because of the uniqueness of Hindu thought where 'experience is central, skepticism integral, text subservient, and belief voluntary'. As Left in the West is associated with the word liberal (contrasting with the anti-science, pro-church Right), our English media would like to think they too being Left by inference 'liberal minded'. The Indian right is more accurately described as the 'Liberal right' though I would probably prefer to avoid the whole left/right paradigm as it evolved in a different context. its again ironical since I hear there is some church ownership of many English media channels!

 

[KS]

Do not twist my words around, I'm speaking of India as a ,nation not as a culture or civilization.

Yet it is a civilization and you not speaking about it does disprove its existence. Like they say, when the little cat closes its eyes, it does not mean the world has gone blind.

Moreover as explained in the previous posts, the western concept of "nation-states" does not hold good in the context of India because of the different context. India is unique in its position.

these little nations would still share the same civilization and religion and similar caste system.

Instead of the word "nations" if you use states, that is what we are exactly now. States that share the same civilization, religion and for your mental happiness caste system. That commonality is what binds us into one entity.

So what is your confusion ? Or perhaps in your confusion you blurted out the truth that you were trying hard to deny ?

 

[KS]

Completely untrue, India is a secular country religion has nothing to do with India. Culturally Indian people have similarities right from Kashmir to Kanyakumari.

Partly Wrong...Read the OP bro. And I find your post amusing. Actually culturally there is hardly anything similar between a Kashmiri Pandit and Nadar in Tuticorin in the far south. It's mostly the religion that gives them a shared identity. Why different states feel something for each other is the widespread of the Indic faiths in almost all the states.

Partly correct - India is indeed a secular country but the secularism aint got nothing to do with the common strand of religion that binds this nation together.

What I stated are facts that British united and created India.

Are you the modern day equivalent of Goebells who believes in that adage - telling the same lie again and again............

 

[KS]

Yes Dharma is an essential ingredient of the idea of India, but that does not make things insecure at all. In fact, we see people all over the world gradually becoming more Dharmic, sometimes even without recognizing the process.

U.S. Views on God and Life Are Turning Hindu - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

A sensationalist article which says America is turning Hindu because many are doing cremations now !..wow. Mate we should no fall for such superficial changes and become complacent in our own strength. This is like saying India is winning over the world because many are watching Bollywood movies !

 

[neokautilya2]

Will Durant, American historian: "India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages: she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all".
Mark Twain, American author: "India is, the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, the grandmother of legend, and the great grand mother of tradition. our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."
Albert Einstein, American scientist: "We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."
Max Mueller, German scholar: If I were asked under what sky the human mind has most fully developed some of its choicest gifts, has most deeply pondered on the greatest problems of life, and has found solutions, I should point to India.
Romain Rolland, French scholar : "If there is one place on the face of earth where all the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India."
Henry David Thoreau, American Thinker & Author: Whenever I have read any part of the Vedas, I have felt that some unearthly and unknown light illuminated me. In the great teaching of the Vedas, there is no touch of sectarianism. It is of all ages, climbs, and nationalities and is the royal road for the attainment of the Great Knowledge. When I read it, I feel that I am under the spangled heavens of a summer night.
R.W. Emerson, American Author: In the great books of India, an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence, which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the questions that exercise us.
Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA: "India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."
Keith Bellows, National Geographic Society : "There are some parts of the world that, once visited, get into your heart and won't go. For me, India is such a place. When I first visited, I was stunned by the richness of the land, by its lush beauty and exotic architecture, by its ability to overload the senses with the pure, concentrated intensity of its colors, smells, tastes, and sounds... I had been seeing the world in black & white and, when brought face-to-face with India, experienced everything re-rendered in brilliant technicolor."
A Rough Guide to India: "It is impossible not to be astonished by India. Nowhere on Earth does humanity present itself in such a dizzying, creative burst of cultures and religions, races and tongues. Enriched by successive waves of migration and marauders from distant lands, every one of them left an indelible imprint which was absorbed into the Indian way of life. Every aspect of the country presents itself on a massive, exaggerated scale, worthy in comparison only to the superlative mountains that overshadow it. It is this variety which provides a breathtaking ensemble for experiences that is uniquely Indian. Perhaps the only thing more difficult than to be indifferent to India would be to describe or understand India completely. There are perhaps very few nations in the world with the enormous variety that India has to offer. Modern day India represents the largest democracy in the world with a seamless picture of unity in diversity unparalleled anywhere else."

THIS IS WHAT THE LEARNED PPL HAVE TO SAY ABOUT INDIA

 

[KS]

A rough example of how religion can be used to create faultlines in skilled hands can be seen in the case of North East where the missionaries did a wonderful job, both pre and post independence in drilling into the population, atleast a majority, that they are different from the "mainland, Hindu" India and they dont have anything to do with it. This alone led to many insurgencies there inspite of the fact the similarity between a Dogra and a Malayalee is as much as the difference between the same Malayalee and the Naga. But what united the former pair was absent in the case of the latter and hence the friction.

Similar things are still happening but in more subtle forms and if these activities are allowed to go unchecked, then the very existence of India, as we know today, may be at stake,

 

[madooxno9]

With an area of 5,000,000 km2, it was one of the world's largest empires in its time, and the largest ever in the Indian subcontinent.

Under Chandragupta and his successors, internal and external trade, agriculture and economic activities, all thrived and expanded across India thanks to the creation of a single and efficient system of finance, administration, and security.

After the Kalinga War, the Empire experienced half a century of peace and security under Ashoka. Mauryan India also enjoyed an era of social harmony, religious transformation, and expansion of the sciences and of knowledge.


After reading all this if you can not comprehend that it was already under nationhood ( Akhand Bharat) . Then i am sorry you can continue your Pathological LYING .

 

[Rig Vedic]

A sensationalist article which says America is turning Hindu because many are doing cremations now !..wow. Mate we should no fall for such superficial changes and become complacent in our own strength. This is like saying India is winning over the world because many are watching Bollywood movies !

It's talking about subtle but measurable changes. For a deeper understanding of the issues this video by Phil Goldberg is highly recommended -

American Veda: How Indian Spirituality Changed the West

 

[Rig Vedic]

Although, they should expand that to include Christians and Muslims as well so that their nationalism is all inclusive instead of leaving a few out.

I agree that Indic nationalism should be broadened.

But we have to understand the deeper issues. The Abrahamic religions have historically been (and even today are) vehicles for political control.

Bishop Desmond Tutu summarized the situation nicely -

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land."

In the case of Christianity what is needed is freedom from all foreign political influence from the Vatican or elsewhere. At the same time the teachings of Jesus could be interpreted in a way that is in harmony with Dharma. In fact, some say that the teachings of Jesus were Dharmic, but were distorted by Emperor Constantine and others.

Here is an example of a priest who combines his faith with Yoga: Yoga is beyond religion: Catholic priest | UCAN India

In the case of Islam it may not be possible to reinterpret the doctrines from a Dharmic perspective while remaining true to the spirit of the founding Prophet, but nevertheless Muslims can also re-establish their links with their ancestral heritage and philosophy.

 

[KS]

@RigVedic - this is not the 90s or early 2000s in America where Yoga, spiritualilty were accorded due credit and people knew they were products of the Indian civilization. But now, the church has fought back in many areas and progressively Yoga, Surya namaskar are being 'assimilated', rebranded and introduced in Christian versions without mentioning Yoga's Indian/hindu roots. This is the trend nowadays here.

This is one critical feature of the Christendom that we must understand..unlike Islam which outrightly rejects any local culture/foreign culture that offends it and does everything in its power to maintain the distance, Christianity has a far more nuanced,subtle approach...it digests the odd practise, assimilates it to suit its teachings and spits out a rebranded christianized version of the same, thus effectively cutting the original roots of the practise. Resistance is futile in their case. This is what is happening in India too..where things like Yesu Namaskar, Christian Bharatnatyam etc are making the news thus effectively eroding the Hindu roots of the same and attracting people by showcasing their 'common' roots and things they are familiar with. This is far far more dangerous in the long run that the Islamists.

 

[Rig Vedic]

This is what is happening in India too..where things like Yesu Namaskar, Christian Bharatnatyam etc are making the news thus effectively eroding the Hindu roots of the same and attracting people by showcasing their 'common' roots and things they are familiar with. This is far far more dangerous in the long run that the Islamists.

I know what you are talking about but IMHO after exposure to Yesu Namaskar, Christian Bharatnatyam (and analogous practices in the west) people will want the originals, together with their philosophical roots.

 

[vsdoc]

Well that is quite tricky as well as a bit illogical considering that those religions DID not originate in India, nor was their past as calm and tranquil as other FnIO (faiths of non-Indian origin) like Parsis. So what at best could be tried is a system of mutual tolerance between these faiths and Hindu nationalism.

If you say so.

I do not think others who came up against the Persian race would necessarily agree to the "calm and tranquil" part though.

 

[KS]

If you say so.

I do not think others who came up against the Persian race would necessarily agree to the "calm and tranquil" part though.

Well I was referring to their stay in India

I know what you are talking about but IMHO after exposure to Yesu Namaskar, Christian Bharatnatyam (and analogous practices in the west) people will want the originals, together with their philosophical roots.

Unfortunately the converts tend to be more fanatic than the originals. That is the bane of South Asia.

 

[Tshering22]

Unfortunately the converts tend to be more fanatic than the originals. That is the bane of South Asia.

The money recently given remains strong in their head until the effect starts dying out and fresh money has to be pumped in.

 

[vsdoc]

The money recently given remains strong in their head until the effect starts dying out and fresh money has to be pumped in.

I think besides money (sure it has its role), its also about a certain invisible chip on the shoulder every Indian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi) Muslim carries on his or her shoulder.

Of the lack of acceptance by the "real" Muslims.

The Sunnis yearn for it from the Arabs - and get some really pathetic treatment in return.

The Shias yearn for it from the Iranians - and the story is pretty much the same there.

Its a curious mix of a racial thing combined with the fact that they converted without much of a fight.

This is where if we are to live in peace with them, we need to make them feel good about themselves.

They need to take their faith and mold it to an Indian hue.

Discard all pretense of trying to be Arab or Persian or whatever.

And be proudly Indian.

You cannot change from where your faith originated, who controls it, or how you came to accept it.

What you can control is who you are as a people and how you commune with your God.

One on one.