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In Pakistan, ‘liberal’ is a dirty word

I knew You (Pseudo liberal) will come back and I am ready for that for positive discussion (if you do with open mind). There were (and still are) many malpractices in different religion/beliefs which were time to time discussed by their clerics and corrected. I have still to see a big example from Islam. Just to quote few, Untouchability, Purdah etc were malpractices in Hinduism which got revived time to time (may be at few places exist but those are negligible). Christians stopped listening to Pope for any political/religious matter.

The point is evolution which is necessary for any religion. Most of us know by heart that Burqa, 4 marriages for man etc are nothing but a representation of suppression and any belief related to science cant be quoted. Though all believers come and become staunch supporters for the same give thousands of ill-logical reasons. If you are liberal allow 4 marriages for ladies as well why so different attitude. Why you always find religious factor in killing of Palestine/Kashmir in the world and never heard comments for thousands dying in many middle eastern/African Muslim country because that is killing by Muslims among themselves.

If you are liberal then why Blasphemy Law?? If someone is saying to my god, I might prove him wrong or move away but directly hang him up seems liberal to you.

For one or anything, Barelvi/ Deobandi or other islamic institution come up with one or other Fatwa and then they start looking for forcibly implementation of it. Take very famous example of Salman Rushdie. He wrote blasphemous, I agree, but then you can ban book rather than Khomeini need to looking for head of him??

Personal examples, Liberal friend of mine who married to a Sikh girl later used to travel with me but whenever jamaat comes they catch hold of him and brainwash him for an hour which include not to get involved with Hindus and come to mosque every time. The point is not jamaat but the point is the way of life one want to chose. I dont follow many of my religion's practice but no one even bothered me (well even if they do I respond in the same way as I am doing here).

Liberalism is not to think on the same league which has been written in somewhere and told by thousands but what you see is wrong is to accept and change it.

Dear(genuine Indian liberal :P) read my definition of liberal in above posts. You have not given me your definition of liberal but instead you are giving irrelevant examples which have nothing to do with liberalism. If peoples follow a particular beliefs or marry within same religion/nationality/ethnicities because they find more compatibility with them then that is their personal choice and freedom. It don't mean they are any less liberal than those who do not follow any scriptures. Again your thinking is wrong to assume that evolution in religion is necessary in order to call yourself liberal . Its also wrong to assume that liberalism has anything to do with what you wear sari/burqa/turban/salwar kameez/jeans etc. Whether you want to have 5 gfs or 4 wives is again irrelevant to liberalism. By your logic only atheist should considered liberal. Following or not following any religious scriptures has nothing to do with liberalism.
 
Dude you are over reacting. Turkey is considered the most successful muslim majority nation.
And no I was not there, but I saw youube videos. Better to have gay parades than suicide bombers.
Yes its is considered most powerful nation when Islamists came in power liberals are in Pakistan are famous for their Anti Pakistan activities and also anti Islam they are not liberals but slaves of west and India
 
Liberals tend to be tolerant people, most of my friends are liberal, in fact I have very few Muslim friends...

Same here, i have very few Muslims friends and in real life i try to avoid Pakistanis, i used to trust my own but i made a big mistake and i have my reasons for avoiding Pakistanis (that's not to say that all Pakistanis are what those Pakistanis i knew turned out to be), most of my friends are a mix of liberals and conservatives.
 
As a liberal, I believe everyone has a right to express his/her opinion as long as it is NOT thrust on me by force. It is up to my countrymen to decide whether they would like see a liberal Pakistan or a country like Taliban Afghanistan because ultimately it is the people who are the masters of their destiny.

What's the harm with being in the middle?

Having the best of both? And not lean to the extremes of a liberal or conservative (fundamentalist).

Being a good Muslim, will also give equal rights, free justice, freedom of religion etc etc without being called a liberal and without doing all that Nunga-punga stuff (and the nunga punga stuff is associated with liberalism mostly). Although if we stick to Pakistan's case specifically, a good muslim will be hard to find.

If we find a Good Muslim, he will not be running around with a stick ordering people what to do and what not.
 
Being 'liberal' is just the fashion statement among the elites.but the same liberal wear their religion up their sleves to make use of it for their narrow gains.Such people are neither liberal nor conservative they are just another type of chameleon.
 
Being 'liberal' is just the fashion statement among the elites.but the same liberal wear their religion up their sleves to make use of it for their narrow gains.Such people are neither liberal nor conservative they are just another type of chameleon.

Sometimes you say insightful things and other times foolish things.

This was an insightful comment.


Do we have a schizophrenic member here? :D
 
What's the harm with being in the middle?

Having the best of both? And not lean to the extremes of a liberal or conservative (fundamentalist).

Being a good Muslim, will also give equal rights, free justice, freedom of religion etc etc without being called a liberal and without doing all that Nunga-punga stuff (and the nunga punga stuff is associated with liberalism mostly). Although if we stick to Pakistan's case specifically, a good muslim will be hard to find.

If we find a Good Muslim, he will not be running around with a stick ordering people what to do and what not.

There is absolutely no harm in the middle way. The Pakistan that I grew up in; definitely until ZAB brought in Islamization act under pressure from Nizame –Mustafa movement, Pakistan society observed the middle way. This act by ZAB was a victory for the reactionary forces.

However, after the public flogging of Zia era, and the ISI support for the Afghan jihad, the schism between the liberals and the fundamentalist section of the society has grown. But can anyone honestly claim that crime has gone down as a result of public flogging by the bigot Zia?

In fact all the ills of the society such as corruption, hypocrisy, nepotism, drugs and gun running have increased. Pakistanis have not become better Muslims than they were before Zia; actually I believe that our forefathers were better Muslims in character well as in deeds than an average Pakistani today.

Support of Taliban during the post Zia PPP regime with bigots such as Hamid Gul at the helm of ISI was the nail in the coffin of moderate Pakistan. The chasm between the fundamentalists and the liberal sections of the society is now far too great.

Pakistani man on the street is too poor and too busy in earning a living to care about either. Anti-Pakistani forces such as JI and Deobandi political parties who were always against Pakistan are on the rise. These enemies of Pakistan exploit the anti US feeling in the Joe public. Thus liberal and moderate forces that were in fact responsible for creation of Pakistan in the first place, are now being labelled as Western agents as one can see by some of the posts in this thread.

Personally I would love to see Pakistan revert to the middle way that existed until 70’s. But realistically speaking, don’t think it is possible any more.

It is with deep regret but I have to admit that liberals such as PPP, when in power, have been found lacking in good governance and only concerned with lining their pocket. This has given an opportunity to the retrogressive forces to grab power by force.

Irony is that the reactionary forces don’t believe democracy or the elections, don’t believe in individual liberty (Saudis, Taliban regime in Afghanistan etc.) They carry out suicide bombings, sectarian killing and attack on Pakistan Army every day. Still all is forgiven by many educated and intellectual people who go on directly or indirectly supporting them. This is indeed baffeling but true.
 
Irony indeed.

Just watched a documentary in which a shop named Madina Centre, is selling adult videos. Really appalling to see.

Well, what do you think about Imran Khan (i am not his fanboy)?

Seeing that Nawaz Sharif is seen as a bit of a conservative, the middle lean or liberal party PPP lacks in governance, do you think that a middle line policy can be coupled with good governance (or something resembling good governance) by Imran Khan?

personally I hope that this happens.
 
What's the harm with being in the middle?

Having the best of both? And not lean to the extremes of a liberal or conservative (fundamentalist).

Being a good Muslim, will also give equal rights, free justice, freedom of religion etc etc without being called a liberal and without doing all that Nunga-punga stuff (and the nunga punga stuff is associated with liberalism mostly). Although if we stick to Pakistan's case specifically, a good muslim will be hard to find.

If we find a Good Muslim, he will not be running around with a stick ordering people what to do and what not.
Sorry Sir Good Muslim main duty is to tell people what to do and what not and if he will not do it than ALLAH and HIS RASOOL SAW has promised than he will face the anger of ALLAH so it is his main duty and as far as issue of liberal is concerned a Muslim cannot be a liberal either he will be a Muslim or he will be a kafir nothing in between
 
Woman is an idiot and traitor. A western agent. Now all the liberals and Indians will jump on me and say that I am ignorant.
but one of the most vitriolic terms in vogue today is the word ‘liberal’. The word is used by itself and in various combinations — liberal fascist, pseudo-liberal — in order to shame and silence an opposing point of view in heated debates about anything from Pakistani society a

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...akistan-liberal-dirty-word.html#ixzz227oTusXT
Applies perfectly, does it not?
 
Applies perfectly, does it not?


Liberals within our country allow drone strikes, and would probably be in favor of having NATO boots on our soil. Compared to these traitors even Difa-E-Pakistan looks more attractive.

Would you be willing to sell your freedom and nation for the title of "liberal" and a pat on the back from the Western Imperialist masters?
 
Liberals within our country allow drone strikes, and would probably be in favor of having NATO boots on our soil. Compared to these traitors even Difa-E-Pakistan looks more attractive.

Would you be willing to sell your freedom and nation for the title of "liberal" and a pat on the back from the Western Imperialist masters?
There is a difference between calling yourself liberal and being liberal. If you apply the word 'liberal' to many liberals, you'll find them more conservative than you are, just for a different cause. In fact, Zaid Hamid is more liberal than many of these so called liberals, if you look at the actual meaning of the word. The word means people who are broad minded and do not think of just a narrow view. People like Bina are in fact more conservative than Zaid Hamid, whose beliefs, while slightly conservative are more liberal than all these so called liberals combined.

I knew You (Pseudo liberal) will come back and I am ready for that for positive discussion (if you do with open mind). There were (and still are) many malpractices in different religion/beliefs which were time to time discussed by their clerics and corrected. I have still to see a big example from Islam. Just to quote few, Untouchability, Purdah etc were malpractices in Hinduism which got revived time to time (may be at few places exist but those are negligible). Christians stopped listening to Pope for any political/religious matter.

The point is evolution which is necessary for any religion. Most of us know by heart that Burqa, 4 marriages for man etc are nothing but a representation of suppression and any belief related to science cant be quoted. Though all believers come and become staunch supporters for the same give thousands of ill-logical reasons. if you are liberal allow 4 marriages for ladies as well why so different attitude. Why you always find religious factor in killing of Palestine/Kashmir in the world and never heard comments for thousands dying in many middle eastern/African Muslim country because that is killing by Muslims among themselves.

If you are liberal then why Blasphemy Law?? If someone is saying to my god, I might prove him wrong or move away but directly hang him up seems liberal to you.

For one or anything, Barelvi/ Deobandi or other islamic institution come up with one or other Fatwa and then they start looking for forcibly implementation of it. Take very famous example of Salman Rushdie. He wrote blasphemous, I agree, but then you can ban book rather than Khomeini need to looking for head of him??

Personal examples, Liberal friend of mine who married to a Sikh girl later used to travel with me but whenever jamaat comes they catch hold of him and brainwash him for an hour which include not to get involved with Hindus and come to mosque every time. The point is not jamaat but the point is the way of life one want to chose. I dont follow many of my religion's practice but no one even bothered me (well even if they do I respond in the same way as I am doing here).

Liberalism is not to think on the same league which has been written in somewhere and told by thousands but what you see is wrong is to accept and change it.
I will respond here and I will use science to knock down the one claim you make.

Firstly, except for the marriage one, all of your claims are not what is accepted in Islam, it is what is prevalent in Muslim society.

As for the marriage thing, men are more hormonal than woman
 
Woman is an idiot and traitor. A western agent. Now all the liberals and Indians will jump on me and say that I am ignorant.


As if I care. I have been and seen the world enough to declare this woman as an attention seeking traitor.

Coming from a guy who is living in the west :rofl:

Pakistani "liberals" are anti-Pakistan and anti-Army. One of the comments in the article is mine, actually. And when traitors like Ahmed Rashid, Ayesha Siddiqa and Asma Jahangir call themselves liberal, those people who support the disintegration of the state of Pakistan, the murder of innocent Pakistani civilians and have their claws out for the Pakistan Army and the ISI, deliberately distorting facts to paint the Army and the ISI in a darker light, going abroad to malign their country in front of Western and Indian media, then these so-called "liberals" are to be condemned.

Dis-integrating Pakistan?

I think the Pakistani Army did a real good job of that in 1971.

These liberals need to be applauded. Finally they are stepping out of the Blind Nationalist shadow and finally doing some objective and rationale thinking of what is the current state of Pakistan.
 
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