In Pakistan, ‘liberal’ is a dirty word

[truthseer]

See here is the problem. Liberalism is a concept and by no means set in stone. There are many off shoots to liberalism and a stark example would the libertarians.

I hope you starting to understand what i'm saying now.

I get it but you're arguing apples and oranges. What people call themselves is not being liberal. Being liberal is what is. I can go kill 1000 people and say I'm a Muslim doing it for Islam. Did Islam call for that? No, it did not.

 

[Dance]

I've noticed that the words liberalism and secularism are the two most misunderstood words in Pakistan

 

[RazPaK]

Religion and culture are both things that change over time, often for the better. Some people may think these things are an obstacle towards progression, some may not. A liberal person may not agree with you, but would understand you have the right to believe as you wish, opposed to many conservatives in Pakistan.

It's my belief that secularism is the best option for Pakistan to progress, although this wont happen until most Pakistanis themselves support secularism. And this wont happen for a long, long time.

It depends on what your perception of secularism is. It it living in harmony or is it suppression? Secularism is only two steps away from communism, if you look at it from a broader angle. Secularism is by no means stable and like other philosophies never will be.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

This was an excellent article, & I am glad that this subject is being discussed here. Many Pakistanis do require clarifications regarding the attributes of a liberal individual & this article does just that perfectly. Being morally unrestrained is in my opinion a bad attribute, so I am not going to be supporting libertines in Pakistan or anywhere else for that matter. Retaining morality is important for the mental well being of individuals & the society at large. Without morality & the retainment of cultural values, a society risks disintegrating & losing its identity. Combine that with the social issues that turn up in a morally corrupt society, that's another recipe for disaster. However, this does not imply that we turn a blind eye or neglect those who suffer due to immoral behaviour. For example; drug addicts should not be banished for their crimes & instead should be looked after & corrected so that they may turn in to productive members of the society.

I agree with liberal values like constitutionalism, equality of genders & races, the protection of minorities, the freedom of religion, free & fair elections, & guarding human rights & dignity. If such values existed in our society, I doubt Pakistan would ever have to face the problems it encounters today. Oddly enough, while I am not against democracy in any way, I just don't care much for democracy. Perhaps it's because I spent the greater portion of my life being raised in a monarchy. Maybe it's because the monarchy I grew up in is a lot more prosperous than my own "democratic" country. I believe that democracy requires certain conditions to be successful, I have elucidated those conditions in other threads so I don't feel that I am required to do so again. From my point of view, different societies are to be governed in different ways & that nations should be free to choose the form of government they deem best for themselves.

I do retain some conservative or traditional views like supporting nationalism, & the preservation of race & heritage. This does not imply that I support racism or religious fanaticism, on the contrary; I am strongly against both of them. Personally, I agree with the Islamic views on morality, but I respect other people's views regarding their choice of religion & morality. I guess the best path to choose is one that is moderate, tolerant, & logical. Anything illogical should be rejected. A society should guarantee & protect all individuals' freedom of speech & thought. It isn't our right to force someone to adopt our beliefs regardless of our resentment to his or her's views. Anyway, these were my views on the subject.

 

[CrazyTycoon]

It depends on what your perception of secularism is. It it living in harmony or is it suppression? Secularism is only two steps away from communism, if you look at it from a broader angle. Secularism is by no means stable and like other philosophies never will be.

Secularism is more "stable" than a theocracy could ever be.

People will have the freedom to practise whatever they want, call themselves whatever they want, and expect not to receive any state sponsored religious discrimination such as that of the Ahmadiyya community and other minorities in Pakistan. In a secular state, anyone regardless of their faith can become the President or Prime minister.

But for this to happen, most Pakistanis would have to support secularism, and that wont materialise until a long time, perhaps in a century or potentially much longer.

And lol, there is no comparison, and there are no similarities between secularism and communism. Get your facts right.

 

[RazPaK]

Secularism is more "stable" than a theocracy would ever be.

People will have the freedom to practise whatever they want, call themselves whatever they want, and expect not to receive any state sponsored discrimination such as Ahmadies or other minorities in Pakistan. In a secular state, anyone regardless of their faith can become the President or Prime minister.

But for this to happen, most Pakistanis would have to support secularism, and that wont materialise until a long time, perhaps in a century or potentially much longer.

And lol, there is no comparison, and there are no similarities between secularism or communism. Get your facts right.

Ok. Truth time for the advocator of Secularism.

I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.

What was the point of creating Pakistan?

India is now a secular society. Would you be willing to reunite with union of India, since you are in such favor of secularism?

And you did not even understand the parallels I was highlighting between secularism and communism. I will explain it to you further after you answer the questions above first.

 

[truthseer]

India is now a secular society. Would you be willing to reunite with union of India, since you are in such favor of secularism?

India now breathes air. Would you be willing to reunite with union of India, since you are in such favor of breathing?

 

[RazPaK]

India now breathes air. Would you be willing to reunite with union of India, since you are in such favor of breathing?

That was completely arbitrary. Is there a point in what you wrote?

 

[truthseer]

That was completely arbitrary. Is there a point in what you wrote?

Sharing one trait or attribute with India does not mean one would like to join them. If you think we'd rather live in a dumb country which is Hindu (not secular), you're wrong.

Personally, Islam is the most secular faith there is, allowing freedom of religion and speech

 

[Desert Fox]

Being an Indian, what would you know about our society? Religious extremists and liberal fascists are both at the opposite ends of the spectrum unable to relate to the common man.

Be an internet hindu and troll to your heart's desire. You should feel blessed that I even responded to you.

Come on, lets not drag other religion into the topic, completely unnecessary.

 

[RazPaK]

Sharing one trait or attribute with India does not mean one would like to join them. If you think we'd rather live in a dumb country which is Hindu (not secular), you're wrong.

Personally, Islam is the most secular faith there is, allowing freedom of religion and speech

I am not in favor either, but our ancestors did share the same air as the Indians.

My questions were directed at ultra secularists to expose their hypocrisy.

Secularism is a tool which is now being used to unite the globe. It's ironic most people can't see the ulterior motive of this secularism movement.

 

[Desert Fox]

I hate the word liberal, many of those who call themselves liberal want a world without religion and morality. They want people to become hedonistic and materialistic. They don't care about family values. They want people to become homosexual or atheist, or women to walk around naked. That's being civilized

These people are Marxists, in today's world they call themselves "liberal's" and "progressives".
Research on Marxism and Marxian Socialism, you will find that they fit the exact definition.

 

[RazPaK]

These people are Marxists, in today's world they call themselves "liberal's" and "progressives".
Research on Marxism and Marxian Socialism, you will find that they fit the exact definition.

Thanks for nailing it. I was going to get to that point once the members here could understand what I was saying from before.

 

[Desert Fox]

Thanks to "liberal Turks" and radical feminists in my country, we now have young girls aged 12 or 13 who have babies they can't look after. Some even "throw" their babies away. Disgusting.

Our society is slowly falling apart......

Yep, a strong indication of Marxist influence in Turkish society.


BTW, i call them what they are; Marxists and not Liberals.

 

[truthseer]

These people are Marxists, in today's world they call themselves "liberal's" and "progressives".
Research on Marxism and Marxian Socialism, you will find that they fit the exact definition.

Then we're all arguing on nothing. I agree with this, the so called liberals of Pakistan are Marxist. I just dispute that they are liberals at all