In Pakistan, ‘liberal’ is a dirty word

[CrazyTycoon]

What was the point of creating Pakistan?

To create a separate state for the Muslims of British India, which was a secular state in it's inception until ZAB thought it would be a good idea to appease the religious far right and the rise of Zia.

India is now a secular society. Would you be willing to reunite with union of India, since you are in such favor of secularism?

No.

 

[Hasbara Buster]

If you understand the definition of liberal, then you'd know a liberal person cannot be a fascist.

The definition of liberal is irrelevant, looking at the attitude of liberals is enough. They are often more conservative than conservatives as has been mentioned earlier.

 

[RazPaK]

To create a separate state for the Muslims of British India, which was a secular state in it's inception until ZAB thought it would be a good idea to appease the religious far right and the rise of Zia.



No.

Great. Thanks for exposing yourself.

 

[CrazyTycoon]

The definition of liberal is irrelevant, looking at the attitude of liberals is enough. They are often more conservative than conservatives as has been mentioned earlier.

I agree with you. Many of these people are militant Atheists or secular wannabes and want to take their anger out on religion and religious people. They aren't 'liberal' at all.

Great. Thanks for exposing yourself.

Who would have guessed, I've finally been exposed for who I really am - a Secular, Zionist, CIA, RAW, MI6 agent.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what nonsense.....it isnt a "dirty" word per se

and most importantly -- like in ANY country of the globe you have people of all political, spiritual and other beliefs......you do have hyper liberals in Pakistan who are an ear-load to deal with and you have the fundo/whackos who are as much an ear-load to deal with

too much right or too much left is bad....when you mix things up and become emotional, then it doesnt matter which way you lean -- you will be fanatical in your beliefs and then be convinced that everyone else is wrong


so why not instead of just going on bandwagons, just accept that far right and far left can sometimes be "dirty" but that there are also normal people ---in fact majority dont care a living shyt and just want to live their lives privately and peacefully

 

[Pride]

I think the whole discussion of "liberal" is wrongly mis-understood and mis-quoted everywhere. We moved from Fascist to Marxist to Atheist to etc. Many people think having sex in public is liberty while others think that living in a shell and talking about heavy terms are cases of 'liberal'.

Then what is this term "Liberal"??? Well that's very abstract and based on perspective of the people just like love but still there is common string attached that to improve human life and human values.

I will take a pretty much old example which again causes fumes. Lets take case of Burqa, Many girls want to wear with their choice (their belief, their liking) but then there are many girls who dont want to wear the same and want to opt for other things. Now it depends to us (society) to be liberal and accept "BOTH" the cases.

Similarly, Being liberal means to listen others but dont impose them their rules like what Zia did. My many Pakistani friends want to drink but then officially it is banned in Pakistan (and IN Gujrat, India). It does not mean that they dont find it they get it but then mode makes them sort of criminal.

These were the personal choices factor but when it comes for a big dramatic social change it becomes more confusing. Many people said that even dictators like Saddam Hussein, Colonel Gaddafi, Gen Zia etc were good but then what if we see that they made life of normal people worse than what they should deserve. Then what democracy did good to us as we accepted some bigots and we have to suffer 4/5 years. A liberal is always more demanding and being a liberal I want changes in nature of democracy we have. Those who defined rule thinking of Ideal situations and hence we need more liberty for "Rejecting the wrong Candidate", "Rejecting the Government" and other innovative concept.

The difficult Problem comes that when to stop liberal like me as I might want to re-write whole constitution which might harm whole country. Then answer is simple. A "liberal"'s demand and choice should be implemented and tested step by step any major makeover may cause a big fight among Liberal vs Conservative.

 

[RazPaK]

I think the whole discussion of "liberal" is wrongly mis-understood and mis-quoted everywhere. We moved from Fascist to Marxist to Atheist to etc. Many people think having sex in public is liberty while others think that living in a shell and talking about heavy terms are cases of 'liberal'.

Then what is this term "Liberal"??? Well that's very abstract and based on perspective of the people just like love but still there is common string attached that to improve human life and human values.

I will take a pretty much old example which again causes fumes. Lets take case of Burqa, Many girls want to wear with their choice (their belief, their liking) but then there are many girls who dont want to wear the same and want to opt for other things. Now it depends to us (society) to be liberal and accept "BOTH" the cases.

Similarly, Being liberal means to listen others but dont impose them their rules like what Zia did. My many Pakistani friends want to drink but then officially it is banned in Pakistan (and IN Gujrat, India). It does not mean that they dont find it they get it but then mode makes them sort of criminal.

These were the personal choices factor but when it comes for a big dramatic social change it becomes more confusing. Many people said that even dictators like Saddam Hussein, Colonel Gaddafi, Gen Zia etc were good but then what if we see that they made life of normal people worse than what they should deserve. Then what democracy did good to us as we accepted some bigots and we have to suffer 4/5 years. A liberal is always more demanding and being a liberal I want changes in nature of democracy we have. Those who defined rule thinking of Ideal situations and hence we need more liberty for "Rejecting the wrong Candidate", "Rejecting the Government" and other innovative concept.

The difficult Problem comes that when to stop liberal like me as I might want to re-write whole constitution which might harm whole country. Then answer is simple. A "liberal"'s demand and choice should be implemented and tested step by step any major makeover may cause a big fight among Liberal vs Conservative.

Overall a very good post, however your references to Zia were not well researched.

 

[Pride]

Overall a very good post, however your references to Zia were not well researched.

Thanks for liking it but I would like to listen about Gen Zia because many liberal including me think him conservative and feel him a responsible for current social structure of Pakistan.

 

[RazPaK]

Thanks for liking it but I would like to listen about Gen Zia because many liberal including me think him conservative and feel him a responsible for current social structure of Pakistan.

It's very hard to learn about Zia without bias. After all we are only human. A good comparison would be of Zia and American president Theodore Roosevelt, minus some variables and circumstances.

 

[Karachiite]

The so called liberals like the clowns of Express Tribune who get orgasms from criticizing Pakistan are not liberals at all. There is nothing liberal about finding different ways to defame your motherland or try and appease enemy countries. As a liberal I believe that the goverent has no right in my personal life. I believe that that everyone is equal regardless of their faith or ethnicity. Being liberal to me means moving forward. I believe in secularism, no religion should have control over a country. If a woman wants to wear a bikini she has the freedom to wear it, if she wants to wear a hijab then she has the freedom to wear that as well.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pride --- i agree with most of your post and in fact it reminds us of one thing as far as this topic is concerned

female "oppression" or "suppression" as some see it (e.g. a father or husband forcing his spouse or daughter to wear a niqab) or female "exploitation" (e.g. realizing the 'value' of women when their bikinis and thongs are off) are 2 sides of the same coin

The so called liberals like the clowns of Express Tribune who get orgasms from criticizing Pakistan are not liberals at all. There is nothing liberal about finding different ways to defame your motherland or try and appease enemy countries. As a liberal I believe that the goverent has no right in my personal life. I believe that that everyone is equal regardless of their faith or ethnicity. Being liberal to me means moving forward. I believe in secularism, no religion should have control over a country.

well thats why the indians and the goras love a lot of these liberal fascists in Pakistan.....the Asma Jahangir, Nadeem Paracha and all those types who will go great lengths to speak against Pakistani Nation whenever they get the microphone and some attention

 

[Hasbara Buster]

Who would have guessed, I've finally been exposed for who I really am - a Secular, Zionist, CIA, RAW, MI6 agent.

You sound more like a Mossad agent to me

 

[Jango]

Sorry Sir Good Muslim main duty is to tell people what to do and what not and if he will not do it than ALLAH and HIS RASOOL SAW has promised than he will face the anger of ALLAH so it is his main duty and as far as issue of liberal is concerned a Muslim cannot be a liberal either he will be a Muslim or he will be a kafir nothing in between

Tell people. in a polite way, when things are going nice and a certain understanding is there.

not run after him with a gun, and if he doesn't listen, put up a suicide bomber behind his tail.

The matching characteristics that I mentioned between liberal and Islam were equality, justice, no racism or nepotism etc etc.

I never said that a Muslim is a liberal or vice versa. Both are different and will be.

There are also people under the liberal banner running after Niqab clad women, and staring at them, and asking them to remove it and be free. Now isn't that a choice of the women that she wears a niqab. Why does the liberal come in and tell her what to do with her clothing.

 

[haviZsultan]

In the past I was more of a right winger but was gradually drawn towards liberal ideals. I have to admit that there is some form of hostility and hatred against the liberals. All of us are seen as western agents and foreign supporters when we're not.

Also its also possible to be a Nationalist and a liberal at the same time which these people consider impossible. Some fools have helped. Nadeem F Paracha and Najam Sethi all claim to be liberals and back foreign countries over their own.

As far as hating liberalism itself I think its all about what we have been taught from the very beginning. That secularism is anti-Islam when it's possible for the two to go hand in hand. We have been taught false history and have learned to demonize the Hindus and others as a result.

The liberals believe that Pakistan's problems must be pointed out in order to be solved... the traditionalists on the other hand are intent on hiding our problems or ignoring them hoping everything will automatically improve. This is wrong, foolish theory because ignoring a problem definitely doesn't improve the situation.

The so called liberals like the clowns of Express Tribune who get orgasms from criticizing Pakistan are not liberals at all. There is nothing liberal about finding different ways to defame your motherland or try and appease enemy countries. As a liberal I believe that the goverent has no right in my personal life. I believe that that everyone is equal regardless of their faith or ethnicity. Being liberal to me means moving forward. I believe in secularism, no religion should have control over a country. If a woman wants to wear a bikini she has the freedom to wear it, if she wants to wear a hijab then she has the freedom to wear that as well.

I think that is what has defamed the liberal movement. Monkeys like Paracha and Najam Sethi who spare no chance to criticize our country under the guise of liberalism. This has deeply affected the liberal movement and caused the people to adopt a belief that the liberals are anti-Pakistani.

For my country I will die if necessary. Still I favor democracy, I favor secularism and I favor pointing out the countries problems for the purpose of solving them. There is nothing anti-Pakistani about raising some of the problems in our country and being truthful. I do not like it when people try to hide the truth or support defective laws ie the blasphemy or hudood laws even when they have continously been used (or misused) to frame and kill innocents.

From this people sometimes deduce I do not care about Islam- this is also wrong. A liberal can be as good a Muslim as anyone. He just believes religion is nothing to be imposed-unlike the wahabi cultists who believe it is something to be imposed... that also their own version while there is no tolerance for any version other than their own.

 

[Dance]

There' a difference between pointing out the ills or flaws in a society and bashing your country to get attention, money, or come as being "intellectual". Unfortunately many of Pakistans self proclaimed liberals when in reality are not liberals, fall into the latter category.