In Pakistan, ‘liberal’ is a dirty word

[haviZsultan]

Then we're all arguing on nothing. I agree with this, the so called liberals of Pakistan are Marxist. I just dispute that they are liberals at all

Some liberals are marxist and often many seem to be fooled by the thuggish PPP which sadly has nothing liberal about it. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto threatened to break the legs of Bengalis. He rigged elections and Nationalized everything.

Zardari under Bhutto's reign used an iron hand to attack those who disagreed. Recently a PPP senator Mian Mithoo was involved in illegal conversions of #Hindus in #Sindh. I plan to do an article on the myth of PPP secularism. There is nothing secular about the PPP neither are they liberals.

Ok. Truth time for the advocator of Secularism.

I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.

What was the point of creating Pakistan?

India is now a secular society. Would you be willing to reunite with union of India, since you are in such favor of secularism?

And you did not even understand the parallels I was highlighting between secularism and communism. I will explain it to you further after you answer the questions above first.

Razpak I don't know what has come over you. I heard you once saying secularism is Islam and Islam is secularism... now you are going through great lengths to prove yourself wrong.

For any debate on this matter we need to throw this Zia Ul Haq mentality out of our minds that secularism is equal to Anti Islam and Islam and secularism are two separate concepts that can never merge.

Pakistan was meant to be secular... the reason it was created was to end atrocities of the Indians against Muslims. For example
This is what Jinnah said:

"In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims-Hindus, Christians and Parsis -- but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan." Quaid-i-Azam, Feb. 1948 [1]

Also do note the Islamic republic was never attached to Pakistan's name until Jinnah's death. Though he believed Islam favored secular principles (there is no compulsion in religion) he was afraid the Mullah's would increase their hold on the country... exactly what they did as we saw with their brainless blasphemy and hudood laws and also with laws against Ahmedis. There was actually an Ahmedi man who Jinnah actually called "his son". You hear me, son.

Jinnah was an extremely secular person and the only reason he decided to fight for Pakistan was because the Indians forced him to. For more on that read Jaswant Singh's book on partition and compare his early years where he stood for united India and his later years where he called for independent Pakistan. India refused to give Muslim provinces self-rule, imposed their laws on us including laws on cow-slaughter and constant discrimination in jobs and employment (they refused the qouta system too which muslims proposed)

Even today in India Muslims make up less than 6% of the lok sabha when they are 13% of the Indian population. The point is the biases made us go for an independent Pakistan... not some idea of Islamic supremacy as the supporters of these Mullahs advocate. Also in an article I proved that secularism is not Un-Islamic. If it was 53 Million Muslims wouldn't be living in Europe. This is a joke invented by the Wahabi cultists to maintain their hold on everything deemed Islamic.

Crazytycoon... keep posting. You are a brilliant poster.

 

[Dance]

Some liberals are marxist and often many seem to be fooled by the thuggish PPP which sadly has nothing liberal about it. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto threatened to break the legs of Bengalis. He rigged elections and Nationalized everything.

Zardari under Bhutto's reign used an iron hand to attack those who disagreed. Recently a PPP senator Mian Mithoo was involved in illegal conversions of #Hindus in #Sindh. I plan to do an article on the myth of PPP secularism. There is nothing secular about the PPP neither are they liberals.
.

this why PPP fanboys like Nadeem Paracha are hypocrites

 

[Hasbara Buster]

Good to see there are sane voices in Pakistan.

Hats off for the lady.

I don't think so. They are usually traitors who support drone attacks and such on innocent civilians. Some of them are probably western backed agents or something.

 

[Hasbara Buster]

Pakistani "liberals" are anti-Pakistan and anti-Army. One of the comments in the article is mine, actually. And when traitors like Ahmed Rashid, Ayesha Siddiqa and Asma Jahangir call themselves liberal, those people who support the disintegration of the state of Pakistan, the murder of innocent Pakistani civilians and have their claws out for the Pakistan Army and the ISI, deliberately distorting facts to paint the Army and the ISI in a darker light, going abroad to malign their country in front of Western and Indian media, then these so-called "liberals" are to be condemned.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[RazPaK]

@ Havi

Why is it that equality for all people is exclusively a principle belonging to the concept of secularism?

As you have mentioned Islam has already championed this principle.


I am not against liberals, and myself am liberal when it comes certain things and conservative when it comes to others.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the worst liberals are those who act as if all is honkie dory with certain neighbours who insist on prolonging outstanding issues and at the same time any attempt to reason with them or debunk their theories suddenly you are an ''ISI sympathizer'' (as if being pro-ISI was a bad thing -- majority are for it)


i'd rather deal with a hard right than a hard left...though i think both are bad....i simply cant stand left leaning sissies who are sensitive to anything

 

[Jango]

HaviZsultan, if you remember, Jinnah had a dispute with his daughter over her marriage to the parsi guy.

About the Islamic republic name thing, there was no constitution at that time, and the first attempt at a constitution was the Objectives resolution, also after Jinnah's death.

Islam also teaches that everybody be allowed to follow their own religion as they see fit, you do not have to be a secular to do that, Islam also teaches that, and Islam let's everybody live peacefully, in a manner a non-muslim sees fit. Now, it is not Islam's fault that people choose to forge their own faulty concepts. You do not have to be a secular or a liberal or anything to let people live freely, while with Islam you compel people to live in a cagey lifestyle under a sword.

 

[niaz]

Muslims were the flag bearers of Science and Technology until the 13th Century because Islam then practiced was not a suffocating retrogressive religion of Ibne Timiyah; instead Islam encouraged learning and progress. That is why Islam produced scientists and scholars that were envy of the world. Institutions of learning had patronage of the rulers.

Daraul Hukama was founded in Baghdad by Mamun Ur Rashid in 830 AD. Jamaa Alazhar was founded around 990 AD by Fatimid’s; this predates Oxford by one hundred years. The great Nizamul Mulk Toosi founded Dar ul Uloom Nizamai in Baghdad, in 1065 AD. This liberal and progressive thinking and pursuit of knowledge, produced philosophers, historians, astronomers, mathematicians and chemists that were best in the world.

While we never tire of glorifying exploits of early Muslims scientists, have we wondered why all this innovative enterprise suddenly stopped?

In my humble opinion this happened because retrogressive forces slowly gained supremacy over the progressive thinkers. Ijtihad was forbidden and human mind bottled up by the backward looking Ulemas. Instead of great leap forward during European Renaissance, Muslims took a great leap backward.

Ottoman Turks were an exception, but if one looks closely; Ottoman Empire was based on military alone. Backbones of the Turkish military were the Janissaries. These were mostly European Christian boys levied at an early age and brought up as Muslims.

Ottoman Empire depended upon the quality and calibre of the person of Sultan and like other empires of the world, it succumbed to decadence; a natural process the in hereditary empires.
Ottoman’s Eastern dependencies were lost to the English thru treachery of Arabs belonging mainly to Arabian Peninsula and including the Wahhabis. Wahhabis (followers of Ibne Timiyah) never really considered Turks as Muslims and thus it was okay to side with the infidel British if it meant defeating and killing heretic Turks.

One can be a Muslim and a Scientist simultaneously. For Muslims to regain their lost glory, it is a must that Muslims excel in Science and Technology. I don’t believe that Islam as being practiced by Takfiris/Deobandis or Wahhabi/Salaafi alliance is the Islam that was preached by our holy Prophet (PBUH) and practiced under the Rashideen. We have seen in Afghanistan and in Swat that Taliban (self-declared champions of Islam) are only interested in killing other Muslims and blowing up schools instead of looking after welfare of the people.

In my humble opinion, people who despise liberalism and in their defence have nothing but to hide behind Islam are the worst enemies of Islam as well as of Pakistan. Because such people are the main stumbling block towards progress and betterment of the Muslims and of Pakistanis.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with what Islam stands for but a belief in their self-righteousness and a desire to impose their will on others. To this section of society anything that is new and modern represents evil. For example there was a Fatwa against the use of Loudspeaker when it was invented. Understand a religious council in Penang declared against recital of Quran on Loudspeaker last year. Deobandi Ulemas have issued a Fatwa against celebrating of Eid Milady –e – Nabi. There is a Fatwa against body scan. Vaccination against polio is also considered un Islamic.

My dream is to see a progressive, prosperous and liberal Pakistan. My country men will soon have to choose between liberal, rightest and fundamentalist parties in the forthcoming elections. Let us see what happens.

Oh yes I forgot, according to supporters of Taliban, democracy has no pace in Islam either.

 

[Kompromat]

Muslims were the flag bearers of Science and Technology until the 13th Century because Islam then practiced was not a suffocating retrogressive religion of Ibne Timiyah; instead Islam encouraged learning and progress. That is why Islam produced scientists and scholars that were envy of the world. Institutions of learning had patronage of the rulers.

Daraul Hukama was founded in Baghdad by Mamun Ur Rashid in 830 AD. Jamaa Alazhar was founded around 990 AD by Fatimid’s; this predates Oxford by one hundred years. The great Nizamul Mulk Toosi founded Dar ul Uloom Nizamai in Baghdad, in 1065 AD. This liberal and progressive thinking and pursuit of knowledge, produced philosophers, historians, astronomers, mathematicians and chemists that were best in the world.

While we never tire of glorifying exploits of early Muslims scientists, have we wondered why all this innovative enterprise suddenly stopped?

In my humble opinion this happened because retrogressive forces slowly gained supremacy over the progressive thinkers. Ijtihad was forbidden and human mind bottled up by the backward looking Ulemas. Instead of great leap forward during European Renaissance, Muslims took a great leap backward.

Ottoman Turks were an exception, but if one looks closely; Ottoman Empire was based on military alone. Backbones of the Turkish military were the Janissaries. These were mostly European Christian boys levied at an early age and brought up as Muslims.

Ottoman Empire depended upon the quality and calibre of the person of Sultan and like other empires of the world, it succumbed to decadence; a natural process the in hereditary empires.
Ottoman’s Eastern dependencies were lost to the English thru treachery of Arabs belonging mainly to Arabian Peninsula and including the Wahhabis. Wahhabis (followers of Ibne Timiyah) never really considered Turks as Muslims and thus it was okay to side with the infidel British if it meant defeating and killing heretic Turks.

One can be a Muslim and a Scientist simultaneously. For Muslims to regain their lost glory, it is a must that Muslims excel in Science and Technology. I don’t believe that Islam as being practiced by Takfiris/Deobandis or Wahhabi/Salaafi alliance is the Islam that was preached by our holy Prophet (PBUH) and practiced under the Rashideen. We have seen in Afghanistan and in Swat that Taliban (self-declared champions of Islam) are only interested in killing other Muslims and blowing up schools instead of looking after welfare of the people.

In my humble opinion, people who despise liberalism and in their defence have nothing but to hide behind Islam are the worst enemies of Islam as well as of Pakistan. Because such people are the main stumbling block towards progress and betterment of the Muslims and of Pakistanis.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with what Islam stands for but a belief in their self-righteousness and a desire to impose their will on others. To this section of society anything that is new and modern represents evil. For example there was a Fatwa against the use of Loudspeaker when it was invented. Understand a religious council in Penang declared against recital of Quran on Loudspeaker last year. Deobandi Ulemas have issued a Fatwa against celebrating of Eid Milady –e – Nabi. There is a Fatwa against body scan. Vaccination against polio is also considered un Islamic.

My dream is to see a progressive, prosperous and liberal Pakistan. My country men will soon have to choose between liberal, rightest and fundamentalist parties in the forthcoming elections. Let us see what happens.

Oh yes I forgot, according to supporters of Taliban, democracy has no pace in Islam either.

I would be grateful if you elaborate more on this.

 

[Jango]

yesterday, in of these Ramzan programs (we have absolutely ruined this month with these fake shows), a Maulana was saying to a guy that you should start a roadside stall rather than take part in this banking system. Then the anchor asked the Maulana if he has an account, the Maulana was dumbstruck and paused for a moment, then said 'majboori hai'. The anchor said that 'aglay ki bhi majboori hai'. The maulana then changed his initial statement, and said that it is a majboori for all then.

 

[niaz]

I would be grateful if you elaborate more on this.

It is my firm belief that Muslims have lost their pre-eminence in the world due to falling behind in Science & Technology. Naturally one must ask the question as to what happened that caused the drop from the pinnacle of excellence until the 13th centuries to virtual zero.

Last great Muslim scientist was Nasir uddin Tusi (died 1274 AD) who was an astronomer and mathematician. He developed advanced astronomical tables . Last great Muslim physician was Ibne Al Nafis (died 1288), a Syrian who wrote about blood circulation. Historians believe that reason was devastation that followed Mongol invasion of Iran, then centre of Islamic learning. It could be one of the causes but not the primary cause.

Mongols were also patrons of scholars and craftsman. Most of skilled persons were not killed but rounded up and dispatched to Mongolia to serve the Khan. Nasiruddin Tusi’s observatory was built by Halaku Khan and he was given full access to Chinese astronomical knowledge.

IMO opinion 3 events occurred in roughly the period that is 13th century AD.

-Last Abbasside Caliph of Baghdad was killed by Halaku in 1258. This event shut the door of Ijtehad.

-Ibne Arabi, considered to be father of Sufi philosophy was, also active. He died in 1240.

-Ibne Timiyah, considered 5th Imam ( after Abu Hanifa, Mailk, Shafa’i & Hanbal) by the Wahhabis & Salafin was also preaching during this time ( died 1328)

If you examine actions of Ibne Timiyah’s followers (Salafin & Wahhabi)), you will find these to be most restrictive, vindictive and rigid. Ibne Timiyah was dead against Ibne Arabi and the Sufis. You will find Wahhabis obsessed with destroying graves of the well-known persons and Saints.

Jannat ul Baqii burial place of many Sehabas was initially levelled in early 1800; it was rebuilt by Ottoman Caliphs Abdul Majid & Abdul Hamid around 1818. All the graves were levelled once more l in 1925 when Ibne Saud captured Hejaz. The grave of holy Prophet (PBUH)’s mother, Hazrat Amina bint Wahb was finally bulldozed by Saudis in 1998.

Wahhabis destroyed Karbala in 1801. Deobandis, who despite following Hanafi Maslak have strong Wahhabi influences, have issued a Fatwa against celebrating Eid Milad – Nabi. Sufi Mohammed repeated similar actions against tombs of the Saints in Swat. It appears that these people have nothing else to do but destruction of tombs & graves.

In my humble opinion; teachings of Ibne Timiyah attempt to eliminate free and innovative thinking. Their emphasis is only on life after death, thus all actions are geared towards gaining brownie points in afterlife, with little relevance to life on earth. Any opposition is met by force and unless obeyed, opponents are eliminated.

Wrongly or rightly, this has led me to conclude that closure of Ijtehad and influence of Ibne Timiyah caused demise of science & technology in the Muslim world thru discouraging inquisitive thinking, pursuit of knowledge and research. On the other hand renaissance breathed fresh air in Dark Age Europe leading to research in science & technology which led to Industrial revolution and world domination.

I believe that our holy Prophet (PBUH) preached Muslims to excel in this world and also to ensure welfare in the after life thru good deeds. In my view jihad does not only imply indulging in ‘qatal’; acquisition of all form of knowledge is also jihad.

On this basis, I have reached the conclusion that Muslims of the world in general and Pakistanis in particular, can only prosper in this world as well as in the eyes of Allah thru excelling in science & technology. Unless investment is made in improving the quality of Muslim manpower, whatever influence Islamic world has thru oil wealth, will disappear when the oil runs out.

I am therefore against all retrogressive forces this includes Theocracy in any form. It is only the liberal & progressive thinking that can lead the way for Muslim dominance once more.

These are my personal views. I am not a 'know all' and I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.

 

[Jango]

I believe that our holy Prophet (PBUH) preached Muslims to excel in this world and also to ensure welfare in the after life thru good deeds. In my view jihad does not only imply indulging in ‘qatal’; acquisition of all form of knowledge is also jihad.

Jihad-bin-nafs.

First you have to conquer your own self before conquering others

 

[truthseer]

Does anyone else find it ironic that the authoress is less liberal as Zaid Hamid is?

 

[FaujHistorian]

nothing new.

Liberal has always been a dirty word.

Liberals from 1950s were the card-carrying commies, the 5th columnists in Pakistan.

Too bad we didn't have our version of Mcarthy to kick-@rse these vermin.

These liberals are responsible for spreading the dirty seeds of Islamo-socialism, the fruit of which we now see as Islamist terrorists.

Not only these liberals destroyed our society from the inside, they also pushed and succeeded a relatively free market economy to a socialized mess under Bhutto regime when they looted and nationalized all the banks, all the factories, and all the schools and colleges.

These nationalized institutions were profitable before the black faced Bhutto and his commie cohorts looted and then filled with free loader cronies and union mafias.

And now these same liberals sit in front of us and cry false tears as if these are the true saviors of Pakistan. Nothing could be further from truth.



peace

 

[Uchiha]

nothing new.

Liberal has always been a dirty word.

Liberals from 1950s were the card-carrying commies, the 5th columnists in Pakistan.

Too bad we didn't have our version of Mcarthy to kick-@rse these vermin.

These liberals are responsible for spreading the dirty seeds of Islamo-socialism, the fruit of which we now see as Islamist terrorists.

Not only these liberals destroyed our society from the inside, they also pushed and succeeded a relatively free market economy to a socialized mess under Bhutto regime when they looted and nationalized all the banks, all the factories, and all the schools and colleges.

These nationalized institutions were profitable before the black faced Bhutto and his commie cohorts looted and then filled with free loader cronies and union mafias.

And now these same liberals sit in front of us and cry false tears as if these are the true saviors of Pakistan. Nothing could be further from truth.



peace

I've heard banks and capitalists go well together, but commies?

And now these same liberals sit in front of us and cry false tears as if these are the true saviors of Pakistan. Nothing could be further from truth.



peace

Okay, so how am I related to anything you have said?
I wasnt even born when most of what you said happened. And all i know is even ZH is more liberal than and PPP scum could ever be.