In 2016 Pakistan Responded to the Turkish Request for Pakistani Pilots:Air Vice Marshal Ghulam Abbas Ghumman

[Abid123]

Saddam at the time had the strongest Arab army, no other Arab army came even close, but his army wasn't a match for Pakistan.

Saddam had the 4th most powerful military in the world. It's the other way around. Pakistan's military was no match for Saddam's military.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

People of Pakistan are extremely stupid when it comes to international relations.
I still remember when Kuwait was invaded by Iraq.
Arab countries asked for Pakistani military intervention, specially Saudis.
But Iranian boot lickers in Pakistan went ape bananas .
Pakistan refused, America had a chance to cone in which they did and the rest is history.
Sometimes military help or the lack of it, to another brotherly country , has far reaching effects than west ordinary people can understand.

Pakistan Navy and PAF had already started putting people on deputations in kuwait and then the invasion came ..it seemed noone expected it to come that early or to eacalate it like that... suddenly a polical decision dropped in and everything was cancelled.

Such actions show other countries that we are unreliable.. if u commit something then stick to it..

 

[That Guy]

Saddam had the 4th most powerful military in the world. It's the other way around. Pakistan's military was no match for Saddam's military.

4th most on paper, in reality Iraq actually wasn't that powerful. It had a lot of vintage old technology. Kinda like Russia is today; 2nd most powerful in the world on paper, but in reality is trash tier.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Saddam had the 4th most powerful military in the world. It's the other way around. Pakistan's military was no match for Saddam's military.

Saddam's military turned out to be a paper tiger. Poor formations and tactics. Republican Guard was somewhat decent but they too could not sustain the air war and tactics of the US military. There was only one thing that bothered the US tacticians and planners and they openly stated this after the war. Their concern was facing those parts of the Iraqi Air Force that was trained by the Pakistani Air Force. They were happy to realize that the Iraqi air force applied and focused more their efforts using Russian tactics, than Pakistani tactics. This was their #1 concern when war first broke out in the air.

 

[NooriNuth]

Pakistan Navy and PAF had already started putting people on deputations in kuwait and then the invasion came ..it seemed noone expected it to come that early or to eacalate it like that... suddenly a polical decision dropped in and everything was cancelled.

Such actions show other countries that we are unreliable.. if u commit something then stick to it..

Then USA filled in the gap, cashed in massively and we "Muslims " went protesting carrying anti American banners.
While not realising, this was our own stupidity.

 

[LeGenD]

Saddam at the time had the strongest Arab army, no other Arab army came even close, but his army wasn't a match for Pakistan.

Bro,

Iraqi Army was the largest and best-equipped in the pan-Islamic bloc as in 1990.
Iraqi Air Force was the largest and best-equipped in the pan-Islamic bloc as in 1990.
Iraqi Navy was small as in 1990*.

*Iraqi coast is very small so developing a large navy was not a priority.

How Pakistan compared to Iraq in terms of military might as in 1990? I have put together data from different sources below.

1. Pakistan Army was smaller and much less equipped in comparison to Iraqi Army as in 1990.

Army	Pakistan Army	Iraqi Army
Troops	Total = 450000	Total = 640000 Regular Troops = 400000 Republican Guards = 240000
MBT	Total = 1600 Chinese Type 59 = 900 American M-47/48 Patton = 400 Others = 300	Total = 5500+ Soviet T-72 = 1000 Soviet T-62 = 1500 Chinese Type 59 = 1500 Soviet T-54/55/M-77 = 1500 British Chieftain MK variants = 30
APC / IFV	Total = 645	Total = 7500 IFV = 1500 (Soviet BMP-1/-2) APC = 6000 (Soviet BTR-50/-60/-152; Polish OT-62/-64; Soviet MT-LB; Chinese Type 63; American M-113A1/A2; French Panhard M-3; Brazilian EE-11 Urutu)
Artillery Pieces	Total = 1100+ Towed = 1100+ Self-propelled = ? (M109A2; M110)	Total = 3700+ Towed = 3000 Self-propelled = 500 MLRS =200
Air Defense*	AA guns = ?	AA guns = 4000 (From 23 mm to 130 mm) SAM systems = 600+ (Soviet SA-2 = 60; Soviet SA-3 = 140; Soviet SA-6/-7/-8/-9/-14 = 300+; French Roland = 100)
Ballistic Missiles**		Total = 86 TEL FROG-7 class TEL = 50 Scud-B class TEL = 36
Helicopters	Total = 71 Attack type = 20 (American Bell AH-1S Cobra = 20) Transport type*** = 51 (Soviet Mi-8/HIP = 16; French SA-330 = 35)	Total = 518 Attack type = 159 (German Bo-105 = 56; Soviet Mi-24= 40; French SA-316 = 30; French SA-321 = 13; French SA-342 = 20) Transport type = 364 (Soviet Mi-6 = 15; American Bell 214 ST = 40; Soviet Mi-8/-17 = 140; Italian Agusta AS-61 = 5; French SA-330 = 20; Soviet Mi-4 = 20; Italian Agusta A-109 = 3; American Bell AB-212 = 5; American Hughes 300C = 30; American Hughes 500D = 30; American Hughes 530F = 26; French SA-342 = 30)

*Pakistan Army had no SAM systems in its arsenal. Pakistan Air Force was operating SAM systems instead.
**Pakistan Army had no ballistic missiles in its arsenal.
***Pakistan Army Aviation had the capacity to airlift an infantry brigade from one location to another within the country.

Iraqi Army had an integrated Air Defense system in place which set it apart from any other across the pan-Islamic bloc in 1990. This system is credited for downing dozens of aircraft of the US-led coalition in 1991. This was the case in spite of the fact that US-led coalition was using heliborne special forces, cruise missiles, and stealthy aircraft to degrade Iraq's Air Defense system in a remarkable combination of military technologies and tactics that had no peer around the world at the time.

Iraqi Army also had a Ballistic Missile force which was used to strike at desired targets in Saudi Arabia and Israel in 1991. Operational and dispersal competence of this force in war-time conditions surprised many observers. Even though the Iraqi strike at Israel was a tactical masterstroke aimed to disrupt operational cohesion of the US-led coalition in 1991, this gambit did not pay off because US was able to convince Israel to stay out from the war in view of prevalent Arab sentiment of the time.

2. Pakistan Air Force was smaller and less equipped in comparison to Iraqi Air Force as in 1990.

Air Force	Pakistan Air Force	Iraqi Air Force
Manpower	?	40000
Fighters	F-16 A/B Block 15 = 40 F-7P** = 60 F-6* = 150***	MiG-29 = 30 Mirage F-1EQ = 30 MiG-25 = 25 J-7** = 40
Fighters / Ground Attack	Mirage III/V* = 100 A-5III/C = 50	Mirage F-1EQ5/EQ-5 200 = 64 MiG-23 = 90 J-6* = 30 Su-25 = 60 Su-24 = 16 Su-20 = 70 Su-7 = 30
Recon		MiG-25 = 7 MiG-21 = 5
Electronic Warfare	Falcon DA-20 = 3
Bombers****		Tu-22 = 8 Tu-16 = 4 H-6D = 4
Transport	C-130 = 12	An-26 = 2 An-24 = 6 An-12 = 10 An-2 = 10 IL-76 = 19
Air Defense	Total = ? AA guns = ? SAM systems = 16+ (French Crotale; HQ-2B; PL-9)

*F-7P and J-7 are Chinese MiG-21 derivatives.
**F-6 and J-6 are Chinese MiG-19 derivatives.
***This total count is valid up to 1989. PAF was looking forward to replace F-6 with F-7P afterwards. PAF counted on these aircraft to substitute for lack of SAM systems for Air Defense.
****PAF retired its fleet of B-57 bombers in 1985.

F-16 was state-of-the-art in the 1980s and made it possible for PAF to counter threats emanating from Afghanistan as well as give India second thoughts. Indian reluctance to help USSR in Afghanistan worked to our advantage on the other hand. PERCEPTION can be impactful.

PAF could hold its own against Iraqi Air Force in an all out exchange but WHERE was this hypothetical clash expected to occur? PAF could NOT be dispatched to engage Iraqi Air Force in its home turf. PAF had no AWACS and Aerial Refueling capability at the time.

3. Pakistan Navy was larger and better equipped in comparison to Iraqi Navy as in 1990.

Navy	Pakistan Navy	Iraqi Navy
Manpower	13000	5000
Cruiser	British County-class* = 1
Destroyer	American Gearing-class = 6
Frigate		Italian Hittin-class = 4 Khaldoum Training = 1
Corvette	British Town-class = 1 Chinese Hainan-class = 4	Italian-Assad class with helipad = 2 Italian-Assad class = 2
Boats	Chinese Type 062 gunboat = 12 Chinese Type 025 torpedo boat = 4	Soviet Osa-class missile boat = 8 Soviet P-6 torpedo boat = 6 Others = 20
MCMV		Soviet T-43 = 2 Others = 6
Amphibious Transport		Iraqi al-zahraa landing ship = 3 Soviet Polnocny landing ship = 3
Submarine	French Agosta-class** = 2 French Daphne-class = 4 Italian SX-404 midget = 4
Aircraft	French Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic maritime patrol = 3 British Sea King ASW helicopter = 6	American Bell AB-212 ASW helicopter = 6

*WWII vintage
**Agosta-70A variant

The Gearing-class destroyers could be dispatched to the Persian Gulf to engage Iraqi Navy but they were lacking in air defense weaponry. Iraqi Air Force could attack and sink ships as the USS Stark incident showed in 1987.

Agosta-class and Daphne-class submarines could also be dispatched to the Persian Gulf to counter Iraqi Navy but the Persian Gulf is a shallow water environment and the submarines would be vulnerable in this region. These assets were best used in the Indian ocean.

Pakistan Navy was better suited for coastal defense in large part.

REFERENCES

REPORTS

Global Arms Exports to Iraq, 1960-1990

This Note provides information about the supply of weapons to Iraq since the 1960s, including a rough assessment of the level of technological sophistication inherent in those systems.

www.rand.org

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA279742

---

ACADEMIC

Chatterjee, D (2012). Taking Stock of Pakistan’s Artillery. The Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS), 124-134.

Elkin, J. F., & Ritezel, W. A. (1986). The Indo-Pakistani Military Balance. Asian Survey, 26(5), 518-538.

Rikhye, R. (1989). Assessing Pakistan's Military Expansion since 1971. Economic and Political Weekly, 395-398.

---

WEBSITES

Army - Iraq Special Weapons

Iraqi Air Force - Iraqi Intelligence Agencies

A profile of Iraqi intelligence agencies.

irp.fas.org

CONFRONTATION THE GULF; A Million Strong? Some Experts Question Iraq's Military Strength (Published 1990)

www.nytimes.com

Chengdu F-7P

WEAPON SYSTEMS OF PAF

Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pakistan Navy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pakistan should have gone whole heartedly to defend Kuwait ..... It was a mistake.... A big one

See above.

How could Pakistan fight a war with Iraq [on its own] in 1991?

1. Pakistan needs to watch its back due to ongoing territorial dispute with India.
2. Iraqi military was too large to stop in Kuwait.
3. PAF had a small fleet of C-130 aircraft in 1991. This fleet was not sufficient to move heavy equipment to Kuwait.
4. PAF had no AWACS and Aerial Refueling capability to fight a war with Iraqi Air Force in its home turf in 1991.
5. PN could not survive in the Persian Gulf waters in 1991.

Pakistan agreed to defend Saudi cities such as Mecca and Medina only. But war was unlikely to reach these locations.

Saddam's military turned out to be a paper tiger. Poor formations and tactics. Republican Guard was somewhat decent but they too could not sustain the air war and tactics of the US military. There was only one thing that bothered the US tacticians and planners and they openly stated this after the war. Their concern was facing those parts of the Iraqi Air Force that was trained by the Pakistani Air Force. They were happy to realize that the Iraqi air force applied and focused more their efforts using Russian tactics, than Pakistani tactics. This was their #1 concern when war first broke out in the air.

Potential War Casualties Put at 100,000 : Gulf crisis: Fewer U.S. troops would be killed or wounded than Iraq soldiers, military experts predict.

War in the Persian Gulf would kill or wound up to 100,000 people in the first phase of full-scale fighting, military experts said today.

www.latimes.com

Most of the members here might not be aware of the fact that Pakistani military professionals held Iraqi military in high regard on average. When consulted on the subject, most pointed out that Iraqi military was competent and capable. This opinion wasn't subjective but shaped by exposure to Iraqi military elements in the 1980s - this part of the story is seldom brought up on PDF.

Iraqi Army was NOT a paper tiger but operational to large extent. It was bigger and better equipped than any other across the pan-Islamic bloc as in 1990. But it was exposed to air strikes from US-led coalition after the collapse of the Iraqi Air Force in 1991. Chinese are sharp observers and they disclosed in their records that the Persian Gulf War in 1991 was ten times the intensity of the Korean War and four times the intensity of the Vietnam War. Imagine this.

On the surface, a sand filtering system was applied to American M1 Abrams to make sure that it will work in desert environments of the Middle East. When go ahead was given to the US-led forces to fight Iraqi Army on the ground, American M1 Abrams and British Challenger 2 MBTs turned out to be SURVIVABLE and outgunned all types of Iraqi armor wherever encountered. MBT [should be] SURVIVABLE in the battlefield - it is the key to win battles on the ground.

The untold story of the world’s fiercest tank battle

30 years ago, thousands of tanks faced off on a desert battlefield. Today, ‘Fright Night’ still haunts these Gulf War veterans.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Saddam Hussein's absolute lack of political flexibility was another problem. For reference:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01495939308402914?journalCode=ucst20

Iraqi general Ra'ad al-Hamdani had similar complaints in his confessions. Saddam was of the view that US would be reluctant to fight a war with another well-equipped country because of its prior experience in Vietnam.

Many do not study and understand what happened in the Vietnam War and go by the PERCEPTION of it. Vietnam was split between the North and the South in the 1950s. The North was under the control of Vietcong and the South was under the control of French in the 1950s. Vietcong defeated the French in a war but Americans arrived and took control of the South in the 1960s. Much of the Vietnamese terrain is composed of mountains, thick forests, and marches - this environment negated American military technology of the 1960s and battles with Vietcong turned out to be indecisive in the (1965 - 1967) period. But Americans forces were becoming acclimatized to Vietnam's environment in time and were able to win battles that were fought in 1968 and later. However, American Public opinion had shifted and there was pressure on the government to abandon the South. When new generation of technologies emerged in the early 1970s, they were put to the test in Operation Linebacker II to deliver a significant blow to the Vietcong in 1972. This move helped restore peace in Vietnam and American forces could be withdrawn without incident. It took Vietcong 3 years to recover from the blow and capture the South.

American military technology of the 1970s was sufficient to defeat Vietcong in the battlefield but Nixon administration was committed to withdrawal in line with American Public sentiment of the time.

Linebacker II | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Not since World War II had bombers been employed in an operation of this scope. After 11 days of bombi

www.airandspaceforces.com

American military technology of the 1980s was sufficient to help turn the tide of war in Afghanistan for the Mujahideen.

Afghan War and the Stinger Saga: Lt. Col. (R) Mahmood Ahmed Ghazi Y. Bt.: 9789699225154: Amazon.com: Books

Afghan War and the Stinger Saga [Lt. Col. (R) Mahmood Ahmed Ghazi Y. Bt.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Afghan War and the Stinger Saga

www.amazon.com

But American military technology of the 1980s would be demonstrated in all its glory in a full-scale conventional war with Iraq in 1991. Operation Desert Storm was also brilliantly executed in terms of tactics.

Saddam wasn't the only fool out there. Then COAS Mirza Aslam Beg was also of the view that the US will fail in Iraq.

It is IMPORTANT to read GLOBAL developments CORRECTLY. This is the key to being SMART and COMPETENT in political affairs.

Pervez Musharraf is unsung hero of Pakistan. He understood warfare better than most in our region. He saved Pakistan with his "politics."

 

[That Guy]

Bro,

Iraqi Army was the largest and best-equipped in the pan-Islamic bloc as in 1990.
Iraqi Air Force was the largest and best-equipped in the pan-Islamic bloc as in 1990.
Iraqi Navy was small as in 1990*.

*Iraqi coast is very small so developing a large navy was not a priority.

How Pakistan compared to Iraq in terms of military might as in 1990? I have put together data from different sources below.

1. Pakistan Army was smaller and much less equipped in comparison to Iraqi Army as in 1990.

Army	Pakistan Army	Iraqi Army
Troops	Total = 450000	Total = 640000 Regular Troops = 400000 Republican Guards = 240000
MBT	Total = 1600 Chinese Type 59 = 900 American M-47/48 Patton = 400 Others = 300	Total = 5500+ Soviet T-72 = 1000 Soviet T-62 = 1500 Chinese Type 59 = 1500 Soviet T-54/55/M-77 = 1500 British Chieftain MK variants = 30
APC / IFV	Total = 645	Total = 7500 IFV = 1500 (Soviet BMP-1/-2) APC = 6000 (Soviet BTR-50/-60/-152; Polish OT-62/-64; Soviet MT-LB; Chinese Type 63; American M-113A1/A2; French Panhard M-3; Brazilian EE-11 Urutu)
Artillery Pieces	Total = 1100+ Towed = 1100+ Self-propelled = ? (M109A2; M110)	Total = 3700+ Towed = 3000 Self-propelled = 500 MLRS =200
Air Defense*	AA guns = ?	AA guns = 4000 (From 23 mm to 130 mm) SAM systems = 600+ (Soviet SA-2 = 60; Soviet SA-3 = 140; Soviet SA-6/-7/-8/-9/-14 = 300+; French Roland = 100)
Ballistic Missiles**		Total = 86 TEL FROG-7 class TEL = 50 Scud-B class TEL = 36
Helicopters	Total = 71 Attack type = 20 (American Bell AH-1S Cobra = 20) Transport type*** = 51 (Soviet Mi-8/HIP = 16; French SA-330 = 35)	Total = 518 Attack type = 159 (German Bo-105 = 56; Soviet Mi-24= 40; French SA-316 = 30; French SA-321 = 13; French SA-342 = 20) Transport type = 364 (Soviet Mi-6 = 15; American Bell 214 ST = 40; Soviet Mi-8/-17 = 140; Italian Agusta AS-61 = 5; French SA-330 = 20; Soviet Mi-4 = 20; Italian Agusta A-109 = 3; American Bell AB-212 = 5; American Hughes 300C = 30; American Hughes 500D = 30; American Hughes 530F = 26; French SA-342 = 30)

*Pakistan Army had no SAM systems in its arsenal. Pakistan Air Force was operating SAM systems instead.
**Pakistan Army had no ballistic missiles in its arsenal.
***Pakistan Army Aviation had the capacity to airlift an infantry brigade from one location to another within the country.

Iraqi Army had an integrated Air Defense system in place which set it apart from any other across the pan-Islamic bloc in 1990. This system is credited for downing dozens of aircraft of the US-led coalition in 1991. This was the case in spite of the fact that US-led coalition was using heliborne special forces, cruise missiles, and stealthy aircraft to degrade Iraq's Air Defense system in a remarkable combination of military technologies and tactics that had no peer around the world at the time.

Iraqi Army also had a Ballistic Missile force which was used to strike at desired targets in Saudi Arabia and Israel in 1991. Operational and dispersal competence of this force in war-time conditions surprised many observers. Even though the Iraqi strike at Israel was a tactical masterstroke aimed to disrupt operational cohesion of the US-led coalition in 1991, this gambit did not pay off because US was able to convince Israel to stay out from the war in view of prevalent Arab sentiment of the time.

2. Pakistan Air Force was smaller and less equipped in comparison to Iraqi Air Force as in 1990.

Air Force	Pakistan Air Force	Iraqi Air Force
Manpower	?	40000
Fighters	F-16 A/B Block 15 = 40 F-7P** = 60 F-6* = 150***	MiG-29 = 30 Mirage F-1EQ = 30 MiG-25 = 25 J-7** = 40
Fighters / Ground Attack	Mirage III/V* = 100 A-5III/C = 50	Mirage F-1EQ5/EQ-5 200 = 64 MiG-23 = 90 J-6* = 30 Su-25 = 60 Su-24 = 16 Su-20 = 70 Su-7 = 30
Recon		MiG-25 = 7 MiG-21 = 5
Electronic Warfare	Falcon DA-20 = 3
Bombers****		Tu-22 = 8 Tu-16 = 4 H-6D = 4
Transport	C-130 = 12	An-26 = 2 An-24 = 6 An-12 = 10 An-2 = 10 IL-76 = 19
Air Defense	Total = ? AA guns = ? SAM systems = 16+ (French Crotale; HQ-2B; PL-9)

*F-7P and J-7 are Chinese MiG-21 derivatives.
**F-6 and J-6 are Chinese MiG-19 derivatives.
***This total count is valid up to 1989. PAF was looking forward to replace F-6 with F-7P afterwards. PAF counted on these aircraft to substitute for lack of SAM systems for Air Defense.
****PAF retired its fleet of B-57 bombers in 1985.

F-16 was state-of-the-art in the 1980s and made it possible for PAF to counter threats emanating from Afghanistan as well as give India second thoughts. Indian reluctance to help USSR in Afghanistan worked to our advantage on the other hand. PERCEPTION can be impactful.

PAF could hold its own against Iraqi Air Force in an all out exchange but WHERE was this hypothetical clash expected to occur? PAF could NOT be dispatched to engage Iraqi Air Force in its home turf. PAF had no AWACS and Aerial Refueling capability at the time.

3. Pakistan Navy was larger and better equipped in comparison to Iraqi Navy as in 1990.

Navy	Pakistan Navy	Iraqi Navy
Manpower	13000	5000
Cruiser	British County-class* = 1
Destroyer	American Gearing-class = 6
Frigate		Italian Hittin-class = 4 Khaldoum Training = 1
Corvette	British Town-class = 1 Chinese Hainan-class = 4	Italian-Assad class with helipad = 2 Italian-Assad class = 2
Boats	Chinese Type 062 gunboat = 12 Chinese Type 025 torpedo boat = 4	Soviet Osa-class missile boat = 8 Soviet P-6 torpedo boat = 6 Others = 20
MCMV		Soviet T-43 = 2 Others = 6
Amphibious Transport		Iraqi al-zahraa landing ship = 3 Soviet Polnocny landing ship = 3
Submarine	French Agosta-class** = 2 French Daphne-class = 4 Italian SX-404 midget = 4
Aircraft	French Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic maritime patrol = 3 British Sea King ASW helicopter = 6	American Bell AB-212 ASW helicopter = 6

*WWII vintage
**Agosta-70A variant

The Gearing-class destroyers could be dispatched to the Persian Gulf to engage Iraqi Navy but they were lacking in air defense weaponry. Iraqi Air Force could attack and sink ships as the USS Stark incident showed in 1987.

Agosta-class and Daphne-class submarines could also be dispatched to the Persian Gulf to counter Iraqi Navy but the Persian Gulf is a shallow water environment and the submarines would be vulnerable in this region. These assets were best used in the Indian ocean.

Pakistan Navy was better suited for coastal defense in large part.

REFERENCES

REPORTS

Global Arms Exports to Iraq, 1960-1990

This Note provides information about the supply of weapons to Iraq since the 1960s, including a rough assessment of the level of technological sophistication inherent in those systems.

www.rand.org

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA279742

---

ACADEMIC

Chatterjee, D (2012). Taking Stock of Pakistan’s Artillery. The Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS), 124-134.

Elkin, J. F., & Ritezel, W. A. (1986). The Indo-Pakistani Military Balance. Asian Survey, 26(5), 518-538.

Rikhye, R. (1989). Assessing Pakistan's Military Expansion since 1971. Economic and Political Weekly, 395-398.

---

WEBSITES

Army - Iraq Special Weapons

Iraqi Air Force - Iraqi Intelligence Agencies

A profile of Iraqi intelligence agencies.

irp.fas.org

CONFRONTATION THE GULF; A Million Strong? Some Experts Question Iraq's Military Strength (Published 1990)

www.nytimes.com

Chengdu F-7P

WEAPON SYSTEMS OF PAF

Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pakistan Navy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

See above.

How could Pakistan fight a war with Iraq [on its own] in 1991?

1. Pakistan needs to watch its back due to ongoing territorial dispute with India.
2. Iraqi military was too large to stop in Kuwait.
3. PAF had a small fleet of C-130 aircraft in 1991. This fleet was not sufficient to move heavy equipment to Kuwait.
4. PAF had no AWACS and Aerial Refueling capability to fight a war with Iraqi Air Force in its home turf in 1991.
5. PN could not survive in the Persian Gulf waters in 1991.

Pakistan agreed to defend Saudi cities such as Mecca and Medina only. But war was unlikely to reach these locations.

Potential War Casualties Put at 100,000 : Gulf crisis: Fewer U.S. troops would be killed or wounded than Iraq soldiers, military experts predict.

War in the Persian Gulf would kill or wound up to 100,000 people in the first phase of full-scale fighting, military experts said today.

www.latimes.com

Most of the members here might not be aware of the fact that Pakistani military professionals held Iraqi military in high regard on average. When consulted on the subject, most pointed out that Iraqi military was competent and capable. This opinion wasn't subjective but shaped by exposure to Iraqi military elements in the 1980s - this part of the story is seldom brought up on PDF.

Iraqi Army was NOT a paper tiger but operational to large extent. It was bigger and better equipped than any other across the pan-Islamic bloc as in 1990. But it was exposed to air strikes from US-led coalition after the collapse of the Iraqi Air Force in 1991. Chinese are sharp observers and they disclosed in their records that the Persian Gulf War in 1991 was ten times the intensity of the Korean War and four times the intensity of the Vietnam War. Imagine this.

On the surface, a sand filtering system was applied to American M1 Abrams to make sure that it will work in desert environments of the Middle East. When go ahead was given to the US-led forces to fight Iraqi Army on the ground, American M1 Abrams and British Challenger 2 MBTs turned out to be SURVIVABLE and outgunned all types of Iraqi armor wherever encountered. MBT [should be] SURVIVABLE in the battlefield - it is the key to win battles on the ground.

The untold story of the world’s fiercest tank battle

30 years ago, thousands of tanks faced off on a desert battlefield. Today, ‘Fright Night’ still haunts these Gulf War veterans.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Saddam Hussein's absolute lack of political flexibility was another problem. For reference:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01495939308402914?journalCode=ucst20

Iraqi general Ra'ad al-Hamdani had similar complaints in his confessions. Saddam was of the view that US would be reluctant to fight a war with another well-equipped country because of its prior experience in Vietnam.

Many do not study and understand what happened in the Vietnam War and go by the PERCEPTION of it. Vietnam was split between the North and the South in the 1950s. The North was under the control of Vietcong and the South was under the control of French in the 1950s. Vietcong defeated the French in a war but Americans arrived and took control of the South in the 1960s. Much of the Vietnamese terrain is composed of mountains, thick forests, and marches - this environment negated American military technology of the 1960s and battles with Vietcong turned out to be indecisive in the (1965 - 1967) period. But Americans forces were becoming acclimatized to Vietnam's environment in time and were able to win battles that were fought in 1968 and later. However, American Public opinion had shifted and there was pressure on the government to abandon the South. When new generation of technologies emerged in the early 1970s, they were put to the test in Operation Linebacker II to deliver a significant blow to the Vietcong in 1972. This move helped restore peace in Vietnam and American forces could be withdrawn without incident. It took Vietcong 3 years to recover from the blow and capture the South.

American military technology of the 1970s was sufficient to defeat Vietcong in the battlefield but Nixon administration was committed to withdrawal in line with American Public sentiment of the time.

Linebacker II | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Not since World War II had bombers been employed in an operation of this scope. After 11 days of bombi

www.airandspaceforces.com

American military technology of the 1980s was sufficient to help turn the tide of war in Afghanistan for the Mujahideen.

Afghan War and the Stinger Saga: Lt. Col. (R) Mahmood Ahmed Ghazi Y. Bt.: 9789699225154: Amazon.com: Books

Afghan War and the Stinger Saga [Lt. Col. (R) Mahmood Ahmed Ghazi Y. Bt.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Afghan War and the Stinger Saga

www.amazon.com

But American military technology of the 1980s would be demonstrated in all its glory in a full-scale conventional war with Iraq in 1991. Operation Desert Storm was also brilliantly executed in terms of tactics.

Saddam wasn't the only fool out there. Then COAS Mirza Aslam Beg was also of the view that the US will fail in Iraq.

It is IMPORTANT to read GLOBAL developments CORRECTLY. This is the key to being SMART and COMPETENT in political affairs.

Pervez Musharraf is unsung hero of Pakistan. He understood warfare better than most in our region. He saved Pakistan with his "politics."

You know, I was gonna go ahead and be a contrarion, and even wrote a bunch, but I've decided not to be one today.

Just to make my stance clear; You're mostly right, however I do maintain that they were a paper tiger from beginning to end. All their technology and numbers didn't do much when fighting the Iranians, and even after that they were iffy at best. We know technology and a well integrated Air Defense system means nothing when it can't hold up to basic pressure from hostile forces. Ask the Saudis. Better yet, ask the Russians.

Other than that, you're absolutely right, and I won't even begin to refute what you said.

 

[mudas777]

Always heard rumors that the Turks found a loophole by giving the pilots temporary citizenship or something of the sort, but it's never been confirmed.


Saddam at the time had the strongest Arab army, no other Arab army came even close, but his army wasn't a match for Pakistan.

Enlighten us more why Sadam army was no match for Pakistan a bit more please?
When the same army is busy signing peace deals with the rag tag Taliban's to safe their arses kicked must be on some steroids that it can transform itself when needed.

 

[Abid123]

There was only one thing that bothered the US tacticians and planners and they openly stated this after the war. Their concern was facing those parts of the Iraqi Air Force that was trained by the Pakistani Air Force. They were happy to realize that the Iraqi air force applied and focused more their efforts using Russian tactics, than Pakistani tactics. This was their #1 concern when war first broke out in the air.

I am not saying that is untrue, but do you have a source for that?

 

[Genghis khan1]

People of Pakistan are extremely stupid when it comes to international relations.
I still remember when Kuwait was invaded by Iraq.
Arab countries asked for Pakistani military intervention, specially Saudis.
But Iranian boot lickers in Pakistan went ape bananas .
Pakistan refused, America had a chance to cone in which they did and the rest is history.
Sometimes military help or the lack of it, to another brotherly country , has far reaching effects than west ordinary people can understand.

Fifth columns of Iranian boot licker get activated whenever there’s a strategic convergence of Pakistan and GCC. Khomanism is a cancer in the heart of Muslim land.

Then USA filled in the gap, cashed in massively and we "Muslims " went protesting carrying anti American banners.
While not realising, this was our own stupidity.

Hundreds of Billions. Same blunder was repeated on Syrians/ Yemen crisis.

 

[LeGenD]

You know, I was gonna go ahead and be a contrarion, and even wrote a bunch, but I've decided not to be one today.

Just to make my stance clear; You're mostly right, however I do maintain that they were a paper tiger from beginning to end. All their technology and numbers didn't do much when fighting the Iranians, and even after that they were iffy at best. We know technology and a well integrated Air Defense system means nothing when it can't hold up to basic pressure from hostile forces. Ask the Saudis. Better yet, ask the Russians.

Other than that, you're absolutely right, and I won't even begin to refute what you said.

Thanks, bro.

WE need to look at how Iraqi military machine EVOLVED over time.

Iraqi military was a much smaller and less equipped force when Saddam called for invasion of Iran in 1980. For perspective:

Iran is relatively huge, and Iranian forces had technological superiority in the AIR (Iranian Air Force was better equipped) and also in the SEA (Iranian Navy was better equipped). Iranian forces were caught napping initially but regrouped and fought back courageously, and were able to roll back Iraqi advances on the ground followed by launching counter-attacks of their own by 1982. This reversal shocked many observers because it was assumed that Iranian revolution had crippled Iranian military capability (PERCEPTION factor).

Americans were monitoring the situation and decided to provide arms and munitions to Iraq, and convinced European countries to do the same. The resulting flows of aid allowed Iraq to REBUILD its military forces while holding Iranian forces at bay. The rebuilding process took time because there was much pressure on Iraq to fend off Iranian attacks from time-to-time and losses were mounting. Iraqi defense of Basra in the (December 1986 - April 1987) period was a noteworthy achievement in particular.

By the winter 1987 Karbala campaign, the Guards' reconstitution and expansion program had greatly progressed. During the campaign, the Guards played a significant role in the defense of Basra, for the first time under the auspices of a separate command rather than as a mobile reserve attached to a Regular Army command. With the expansion, the Guards' units were organized under a corps command structure, as were other Regular Army units. Nonetheless, they remained tied to the security apparatus. When they were not actively engaged in tactical operations, the Guards continued to report to the State Special Security Apparatus, rather than to the Ministry of Defense. In effect, the Guards fell under the dual umbrellas of defense and intelligence/security. The corps structure allowed the Guards to be fully integrated into the army, while the link to the security apparatus ensured that ultimately the Guards answered to Hussein. In other words, the Guards' structure allowed them to function on an operational level with the army and on a political plane for Saddam Hussein. The Guards performed exceptionally well during the defense of Basra, leading Hussein to order a second expansion, increasing their numbers from sixteen to 25 brigades. The metamorphosis was complete. The number and location of armored units are considered determining factors in locating the gravitational center of an army. After the expansion, the number of Republican Guards armored brigades surpassed the number of Regular Army armored brigades. Thus, the Republican Guards came to occupy the dominant position in the army. Moreover, the number of "mechanized" Republican Guards divisions actually he number of Regular Army mechanized divisions. ----[1]

Iraq was able to put together a much better equipped force by 1988 and used it to defeat Iranian forces in a series of battles identified as Tawakalna ala Allah Operations.

The fourth, new army phase of the war began in April 1988, a year after the successful defense of Basra. At that time, Iraq mounted the Tawakalna 'ala Allah campaign to effectively end the war. Iraq recaptured al-Faw, reclaimed all of its territory, and invaded Iranian territory to press Iran to end the war. During the campaign, the Republican Guards, operating under the Republican Guards Command, spearheaded the major battles. Although the attacks were undertaken in coordination with veteran Regular Army units, Hussein credited the Guards alone for victories. ----[1]

Details of this Iraqi military operation is in following publication:

RAZOUX, P., & Elliott, N. (2015). The Iran-Iraq War. Harvard University Press. https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctvjk2vcj

Tawakalna ala Allah Operations compelled Iran to accept Saddam's call for peace.

But peace came at a great cost - tens of thousands had died on either side by 1988. This war represents one of the darkest chapters of Islamic history.

Nevertheless, Iraq had time to develop its military further in the (1988 - 1990) period.

I am not asserting that Iraqi military was perfect but it was impressive in its most evolved form as in 1990. It was better developed than armies of many countries at the time.

But Saddam decided to fight a superpower and rest is history.

REFERENCES

[1] Huggins, W. D. (1994). The Republican Guards and Saddam Hussein's Transformation of the Iraqi Army. The Arab Studies Journal, 2(1), 31-35.

 

[Raider 21]

The US automatically denied permission - no PAF pilots were allowed on Turkish Vipers. They might have ended up on the basic training side.

The US instead asked Turkish pilots to be sent over to US to train on Vipers. And for PAF group, most were at the airport waiting to board flights to Turkey when last minute they were called to go back. This happened despite PAF Viper squadrons being short staffed, and they were slightly aware that US state department would intervene, yet in vain many volunteered with the thrill of going to Turkey for a few years.

 

[SQ8]

The US said to have to Turkish pilots sent over to US to train on Vipers. And for PAF group, most were at the airport waiting to board flights to Turkey when last minute they were called to go back. This happened despite PAF Viper squadrons being short staffed, and they were slightly aware that US state department would intervene, yet in vain many volunteered with the thrill of going to Turkey for a few years.

TA/DA and beautiful girls.. who wouldn’t

 

[Baburfromsarmarkand]

Saddam's military turned out to be a paper tiger. Poor formations and tactics. Republican Guard was somewhat decent but they too could not sustain the air war and tactics of the US military. There was only one thing that bothered the US tacticians and planners and they openly stated this after the war. Their concern was facing those parts of the Iraqi Air Force that was trained by the Pakistani Air Force. They were happy to realize that the Iraqi air force applied and focused more their efforts using Russian tactics, than Pakistani tactics. This was their #1 concern when war first broke out in the air.

They went against Iran for 8 years, ur saying we can take on Iran and end it far quicker?
Our wars never lasted anything close to a year, more like 8 days before we went to the US. I dont where pride comes from, never won a war. We would probably have folded quicker than Iraq did.

 

[Trango Towers]

They went against Iran for 8 years, ur saying we can take on Iran and end it far quicker?
Our wars never lasted anything close to a year, more like 8 days before we went to the US. I dont where pride comes from, never won a war. We would probably have folded quicker than Iraq did.

Aaa the clear loser mentality.