Imran reaches Buner, meets operation affectees

[All-Green]

Oh come on people! wanting peace is not sympathising with the Taleban! It's not all black-and-white. Why are some of us Pakistanis so damn simple-minded?

Imran Khan is against innocents dying. How the heck does that make him shallow? I completely support the Army's recent operations, but I also respect Imran Khan's desire for peace. If you don't want peace, there is something wrong with you, not him.

And please, leave the dirt throwing to the MQM. Calling someone a "playboy" or "lazy cricketer" is pretty damn cheap. It speaks more about the individual's personality than Imrans. I was amazed to see that some posters that I have great respect for have decided to stoop into the gutter simply to malign Imran Khan. Not very nice, is it?

PAFAce, i think you should carefully read the Dawn news report on Imran's speech, then you will understand what is making most upset.

DAWN.COM | Provinces | Military operation no solution for Swat: Imran Khan

And i quote from the article

"Speaking at a news conference in Swabi, Khan said a military operation is not the solution to the problem in Swat.

He said the NWFP government should negotiate with the Swat Taliban to restore peace in the region.

He blamed the government for succumbing to US pressure and conducting an operation in Buner and its surrounding areas.

Imran suggested that an All Parties Conference should be convened and political forces should be taken into confidence for resolving the matters peacefully."

Actually i have always liked Imran but this particular event really makes me angry at him and it is certainly not because of his desire for peace.
It is his deliberate aversion to reality which makes me absolutely disappointed in his power of perception and his ability to take a tough stance.
In his statements there is a complete failure to understand the actual cause of our Army's huge mobilization and the government's action after really giving it all in order to make peace with the Taliban!

If Imran hates people dying then should he not speak out against Swat Taliban and their mass murdering rampage across the region?
Should he not be critical of the pack of wolves which has ravaged our country and has brought death and destruction upon our land?
How convenient to ask the law to negotiate with the law breaker...if the justice he stands for is this kind of justice then i shall never again look at Imran for leadership...

The Taliban will never be satisfied...have never been satisfied...when you negotiate they use the time to regroup and spread outwards...they are scum and this is what scum do...they break oaths...they do not respect life, property and rights of their fellow human beings.

When they are given shariah...it is not proper shariah and requires more observation before disarming
When the Qazis are appointed...they are not approved from Taliban and disarming is ruled out till further notice
When there was a peace agreement hundreds of peaceful Taliban goons raided Buner and despite the peace agreement killed security forces who were trying to stop them...All this in peace and while their demands were met.
What can we expect from these terrorists besides terrorism and cheap publicity stunts?

While i certainly expected these stupid comments from the Religious parties, i cannot for the life of me understand what is going on in Imran Khan's brain anymore...he really has become very confused.

I do not think of him as an evil person for he has done great charity work...however his vision is clouded and he is now playing in the Taliban hand...this is not acceptable from someone who is a leader.
He is living in his own utopia where TTP is distributing shariah candy to the Pakistanis and PA is trying to secure a grand future for its white masters...wake up man...
This is not the Sherwood forest and TTP are not the merry men!!!

 

[blain2]

They have never layed down their weapons and history is evident. Taking weapons away from pushtun is synonymous to taking away his penis. Anyone who understands the pashtun culture would agree.

Solution? Very simple:

All political parties in Pakistan need to organize a long march against US policies similar to the long march of the lawyers movement. The public needs to pressure govn't to back away from America's nefarious war imposed on the Pashtuns and islamic militants in Afghanistan. No more violation of its soverignity through drone or any sort of attacks on Pak territory.

Once you're out of the US war, these or any militants or terrorist groups in Pak would be left with no reason to fight our Army and commit attrocities against civilians.

KnightRyder,

The point about Pashtuns and their weapons is not an issue here. Lets not confuse the Pashtun cultural norm of carrying a gun with what is being asked of the Taliban in Swat. When they are being asked to give up the gun, it means they have to disband the militia and no longer challenge the government's writ in the region. Nobody will be stopping individual Pashtuns from caryying individual weapons or sidearms (as they have always done). The problem in Swat is that they have gone back on their word and essentially miscalculated by moving into Buner when their demands had been met and the GoP had signed on the agreement to impose Nizam-e-Adl in Swat. Not disarming then and proceeding into adjacent Buner was the main problem. So on this count at least, its not about asking a Talib to give up his weapon, rather to abide by a contract that has been signed by his leadership (Sufi sahib).

All political parties in Pakistan need to organize a long march against US policies similar to the long march of the lawyers movement. The public needs to pressure govn't to back away from America's nefarious war imposed on the Pashtuns and islamic militants in Afghanistan. No more violation of its soverignity through drone or any sort of attacks on Pak territory.

Ok lets say there is a march and the GoP backs off from supporting the US and stops all action against the Taliban. Now do you think that will stop the drone attacks or cause an increase? It will increase because by doing all of the above, you have not addressed the root cause of why the drone attacks are happening in the first place.

Once you're out of the US war, these or any militants or terrorist groups in Pak would be left with no reason to fight our Army and commit attrocities against civilians.

This is a very simplistic understanding similar to one stated by many in Pakistan. My own take is that Pakistan cannot get out of the US war in Afghanistan because the Pashtuns from Pakistan go to Afghanistan to support other Taliban. Under the International law, Pakistan will never be able to convince the world community that what these folks are doing is supporting the right of the Afghans to liberate themselves. And that it should be allowed and Pakistan should not be held accountable for what happens in Afghanistan even though these people are coming over to Afghanistan from Pakistan. This is the core of the overall issue. The only way this problem will end is when the Pashtuns in Afghanistan work something out with the Afghan government and the ISAF over there and Pashtuns from Pakistan stop supporting the Pashtuns of Afghanistan.

So based on what I am stating above, tell me what Pakistan should do? You have blamed the GoP for selling out, you have blamed other members and called them apologists for Americans but have yet to clearly explain what Pakistan should do to get out of the US war in Afghanistan without first stopping the flow of Pashtuns back and forth between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Trust me, long marches in Pakistan do not do anything when it comes to regional geo-politics.

At best they would give Pakistani politicans a reason to not support the US with action on the ground with our own Army. Well if we go down that path then the drone attacks are going to increase and also incursions into Pakistani territory with ground troops. How do we handle that? Should we fight it out with the US so the Taliban can support each other?

I say all of the above just to get a very clear response from you. Please read my post carefully and then respond with what are the realistic options available to GoP so they can extricate themselves out of this mess.

Lastly, I do admit that we are fighting amongst ourselves which will only weaken Pakistan, however I blame ourselves more than outsiders for not working things out and compromising peacefully. The militants with their immaturity and hotheadedness have played a big part in this weakening process. Each of the governments in Pakistan only do the needful for their own survival so that is something that you have to live with while also being mindful that they have international obligations.

 

[Durran3]

Blain's post has hit the nail on the head!! well said mate!

@Knight Ryder

Also keep in mind that every time you have peace deals with the Taliban they have only expanded further, gained more territory and recruited more and more people for their horrendous agendas. On top of that i still fail to under stand what EXACT terms and conditions do you apply when you talk to the Taliban? Do you just ask them to stop killing people but its 'ok' for them to keep harassing and forcing their way of life on others?

I just don't see how you can negotiate with people like the Taliban in the first place. I think its time that Pakistan takes responsibility for the mess thats taking place in OUR country and stop playing the Blame game. Blaming the United States, RAW, Zia-ul-haq or the Zionist Jews isn't going to help Pakistan.

Taliban had to be 60 km away from Islamabad for Pakistan to realize the threat that these delusional miscreants pose to our way of life. I guess its never to late to strike back albeit if it was done earlier we wouldn't be dealing with this mess, i wish we were a more Proactive nation than a reactive one, its one of the reasons i like Israel's military strategy.

Also as far as Democracy goes, Yes there is no doubt that Pakistan's democracy is weak but when was the last time any political party stayed in power for a full 2nd term? I can't recall any in the past 30 or so years. We have NEVER really given democracy a proper chance to mature. Remember when you have a Stable national assembly that stays consistent, a filtering process takes place where the bad gets filtered and the good comes in. Its not something that happens in 5 years or 10 years but takes time maybe even 20 years. Everytime the military steps in you go back to Phase 1 and everything starts over by allowing the bullshit leaders to have another go.

Pakistan is changing and i do believe there is a revolution thats taking place within the country. Its NOT becoming radical... the long marches, the civil rights movements, the young students getting active and participating, the lawyer movements, the womens rights movements.. There is a revolution in Pakistan thats taking place, a slow one, a movement for an independent justice system, an independent media... These people will be the future of Pakistan, new leaders will emerge hopefully, well educated ones.. We have a lot of good people coming from abroad, well educated as well as those from our local universities. Young people participating in all these political movements... I do believe in a Positive change and i can see it in the near future...

Power to the people i say!!! Give democracy a chance and let it stay.. even if we are in a terrible phase

 

[PAFAce]

PAFAce, i think you should carefully read the Dawn news report on Imran's speech, then you will understand what is making most upset.

That's interesting, but I didn't see him call the Taleban "peaceful" and I didn't read him "support" the Taleban at all. I think, also, that it would be beneficial if you re-read my original post. I disagree with Imran Khan's claim that military operation is not the answer, however, I also say that nothing is black-and-white, there are complex shades of gray. You may disagree with his opinions, but you must respect his intentions. He is a peaceful man, all he wants are a minimum number of civillian casualties. Also, when he points to the government's half-hearted efforts thus far, I don't think he's really saying anything we don't already know.

Let me repeat myself: I completely support the military operations. I think the Taleban went too far by trying to expand. However, let's stop the character assassination of a man whose primary concern is simply peace.

 

[All-Green]

That's interesting, but I didn't see him call the Taleban "peaceful" and I didn't read him "support" the Taleban at all. I think, also, that it would be beneficial if you re-read my original post. I disagree with Imran Khan's claim that military operation is not the answer, however, I also say that nothing is black-and-white, there are complex shades of gray. You may disagree with his opinions, but you must respect his intentions. He is a peaceful man, all he wants are a minimum number of civillian casualties. Also, when he points to the government's half-hearted efforts thus far, I don't think he's really saying anything we don't already know.

Let me repeat myself: I completely support the military operations. I think the Taleban went too far by trying to expand. However, let's stop the character assassination of a man whose primary concern is simply peace.

First of all i am not after Imran's character.
I like him a lot for all he has done in way of charity work but that does not mean i support him in his flawed logic which is going to help the enemies of Pakistan.

Second of all, i highlighted the parts to you which i deem very inappropriate...despite that you do not see that his statements while seeming peaceful actually are shifting the blame on government and military who have been very accommodating to the Taliban for the peace.

"Speaking at a news conference in Swabi, Khan said

a) a military operation is not the solution to the problem in Swat.

b) He said the NWFP government should negotiate with the Swat Taliban to restore peace in the region.

c) He blamed the government for succumbing to US pressure and conducting an operation in Buner and its surrounding areas.

d) Imran suggested that an All Parties Conference should be convened and political forces should be taken into confidence for resolving the matters peacefully."


Each and everyone of these statements is a gross oversimplification and deliberate aversion to reality!
Let us examine why

a) Military operation is part of every possible solution to the problem here...you have to kick out the Taliban first to do anything else

b) NWFP government did negotiate and actually bent over to the disgust of all of us...but still we saw what passes for sincerity in TTP, despite being given what they asked for.

c) So whatever terrorism TTP brings to Pakistan...we will be a US toady to take action because TTP claims to be anti US? that is really a very stupid argument by Imran and i wholly disagree with him.

d) All parties approved the Nizam e Adal and despite that the TTP had the audacity not to disarm but actually takeover further territory!

That deliberate ignorance is what i am blaming Imran for and i see that you support the Army operation so i am puzzled as to why you do not see that Imran's statement actually means that government action is wrong...look at point a to d...this is what Imran said!

I am a peace loving person but the way TTP has martyred thousands of our fellow citizens...i am not that stupid to expect a table talk with them while they butcher my countrymen...
give them hell and if they surrender then we can talk...on our terms!

At this critical time when finally State and Army agree that threat is indeed a huge one and merits all out war...we have a peace loving Imran who suddenly wants us to put brakes on the entire operation...does he know what it would mean to stop the operation...does he know the implications of such a step?
How can i praise or respect him for his intentions when on one hand he used to say that hang all the corrupt people but on the other hand he wants no casualties during a War for the very survival of Pakistan?
There is a time and a place for everything and Imran was dead wrong to say such things at this time in Buner!
Why did he not go to Buner earlier prior to Army operation and ask TTP to leave?
Because they would have given him their Insaaf swiftly at that time.
Now that courtesy ARMY operation (which he is against) he reaches Buner, this is what he tells them.
That whatever the PA does the cost is not acceptable, freedom of Pakistan and its people take a backseat and negotiation with anti Pakistan terrorists is the only way out of this situation?
Absolutely unacceptable behavior at this time when GOP and PA need every ounce of support from the nation!

Our politicians should go to these areas but give people hope and tell them what it is we are fighting for...they should motivate the people and boost morale.
If instead they tell them that government is wrong and this is all something against the local interests and government should instead talk to terrorists then i am afraid it borders on treason against Pakistan.

I am for Pakistan and Pakistan alone...i support the GOP and PA today because they are fighting for our motherland...regardless of any hate i feel towards any politician or party...i will support all who take on TTP and i expect all patriots to refrain from enticing the public against the State at this time!

What hope is left if we are to be told and accept that GOP and PA are not for Pakistan but in taking on TTP they are serving US only...do we gain anything positive today by putting forth such logic and ideas in front of the masses?

Coming from the leader of a Pakistani political party who wants to serve Pakistan...this is a shameful hypocrisy

 

[fatman17]

it just amazes me we have spent 3 pages of posts on IM the DIM!

 

[Elmo]

it just amazes me we have spent 3 pages of posts on IM the DIM!

Hhahahahhahah, finally!!!!!!!!!

 

[All-Green]

it just amazes me we have spent 3 pages of posts on IM the DIM!

I agree...IM confuses the hell out of me.

 

[PAFAce]

First of all i am not after Imran's character.
I like him a lot for all he has done in way of charity work but that does not mean i support him in his flawed logic which is going to help the enemies of Pakistan.

That statement was not intended towards you. I apologise if it felt so.

Second of all, i highlighted the parts to you which i deem very inappropriate...despite that you do not see that his statements while seeming peaceful actually are shifting the blame on government and military who have been very accommodating to the Taliban for the peace

"Speaking at a news conference in Swabi, Khan said

a) a military operation is not the solution to the problem in Swat.

b) He said the NWFP government should negotiate with the Swat Taliban to restore peace in the region.

c) He blamed the government for succumbing to US pressure and conducting an operation in Buner and its surrounding areas.

d) Imran suggested that an All Parties Conference should be convened and political forces should be taken into confidence for resolving the matters peacefully."

Each and everyone of these statements is a gross oversimplification and deliberate aversion to reality!
Let us examine why

a) Military operation is part of every possible solution to the problem here...you have to kick out the Taliban first to do anything else

b) NWFP government did negotiate and actually bent over to the disgust of all of us...but still we saw what passes for sincerity in TTP, despite being given what they asked for.

c) So whatever terrorism TTP brings to Pakistan...we will be a US toady to take action because TTP claims to be anti US? that is really a very stupid argument by Imran and i wholly disagree with him.

d) All parties approved the Nizam e Adal and despite that the TTP had the audacity not to disarm but actually takeover further territory!

I agree with you on all these points. We're on the same page. However, I don't see that as a reason to hate Imran Khan.

 

[All-Green]

That statement was not intended towards you. I apologise if it felt so.



I agree with you on all these points. We're on the same page. However, I don't see that as a reason to hate Imran Khan.

Glad to clarify my position...
We are indeed on the same page...I just want Imran to mature and realize that he needs to be much more perceptive and careful in his statements...a segment of our youth looks up to him

 

[Captain03]

imran khan is a idiot, he should be locked up lol
we're getting rid of the taliban and he was speaking against it
what is wrong with that guy

 

[EyelessInGaza]

You want to analyze the actions of a politician? Then stop being so freakin naive.

I find that people, especially sub continentals, and of those especially Pakistanis, have a higher degree of naivete in evaluating and analyzing their political leadership. I don't know why that is the case. It's too easy to call someone a traitor or a patriot. Evaluating a politician requires a little more insight.

When you do so, there are a few facts to be remembered:

1) Politicians are moved by, act upon, and make statements on behalf of what they think are the popular sentiments of their constituency.

This constituency is, first and foremost, the people she or he is already being supported by. Next are the people that he/she wishes to become part of his/her constituency in the future.

The question(s) then becomes, what is Imran Khan's constituency; current and future (as hoped for by him)?

Who are the people who will appreciate what he says? Who will not?

2) The next set of questions relate to what a politician does not do rather than what they do. To use convoluted phraseology, why did the politician not do something?

So, for example, has Imran Khan denounced the Taliban? If so, why? If not, why did he not denounce the Taliban?

What do either of these courses of action tell us about him?

3) The third set of questions have to do with how the issue affects the politicians personal ambitions/ goals.

Rule of thumb: The less impact an issue has on a politician's career (e.g Zardari commenting on micro finance in Belgium) the more honest/ open he/ she is in a public statement. And vice versa.

Minor rule of thumb: 50% of the time a politician appeals to the short term, baser instincts of his constituency. That's not wrong, just a fact.

4) Politicians never compromise their physical safety. Never. The questions here are obvious.

5) Politicians have more grit/ guts than you or me. That's why they are up there and we are not. So never, ever underestimate their grit, talent or capability. Remember, they had to be tough to get where they are today.


6) Remember that politicians are a necessary evil.

7) Never underestimate a politicians capability for doing good. But never be surprised if they go the other way, because:

8) Any and all of the above factors may override the others at any point in time.

I speak from the personal experience of having seen Indian politicians at the highest level for a considerable period of time.

So, is Imran Khan a patriot? A traitor? Both?

 

[waraich66]

Elders of all pushtoon tribes in NWFP should resolve SWAT and FATA talaban insurgency in grand jirga.We have seen before use of force may increase anger in pushtoons and fire of war can increase furthur.

Local politician should also support grand jirga.Sufi Muhammad and co should laydown arms.

Pakistan is in very dangrous satuation.

 

[Elmo]

Elders of all pushtoon tribes in NWFP should resolve SWAT and FATA talaban insurgency in grand jirga.We have seen before use of force may increase anger in pushtoons and fire of war can increase furthur.

Local politician should also support grand jirga.Sufi Muhammad and co should laydown arms.

Pakistan is in very dangrous satuation.

They tried doing that in Waziristan with the Loya Jirga — nothing came out of it. The jirga has to be an acceptable mode of deliberation to both parties — that is not the case here.

 

[Zob]

Some people can not express there thoughts properly and Imran Khan suffers from this....if Imran thinks that

1)Military soultion against hardcore TTP coupled with disarming the local supports of Taliban in the SWAT valley is the answer then that would make sense. but he puts it simply as military action is not the solution...sorry sir that is a completely incomplete statement!!!

2) We should negotiate with the locals to point the TALIBAN from the rest of the SWAT people....not what IMRAN SAID... the NWFP government should negotiate with the Swat Taliban to restore peace in the region.

3)If he meant that US should not draw pakistan's strategy in how to tackle the TTP he would have made sense however..He blamed the government for succumbing to US pressure and conducting an operation in Buner and its surrounding areas.


4) If he meant that an APC was necessary to have a unified Consensus amongst the opposition and the government then he would have bee correct....but he suggested that an All Parties Conference should be convened and political forces should be taken into confidence for resolving the matters peacefully."

I guess he needs to fix what he says and how....a man is judged by his choice of words not by his thought..