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Imran Khan’s dog kissing & breeding culture will not prevail in Pakistan – Saad Rafique

I lived in Pakistan for the majority of my life.
I admit that Pakistanis don't care much about animals , especially dogs, but this story makes Pakistan look multiple times worse than it really is....Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.
This is one of America's finest career diplomats and I can discern no motive for him to lie about his experiences - however, he was writing about the Pakistan of the 1980s, not today.

It's good to see that some prominent Pakistanis embrace animals rather than kick them. However, I know my world history well enough to know that being an animal lover is not itself a guarantee of humane conduct when it comes to affairs. Some of the most murderous revolutionaries and criminals kept private zoos, loved their wives and families dearly, and fed squirrels out of the palms of their hands even as they guillotined or shot their victims. There was no branch of the Nazi military that received as much family leave as the staff of the death camps, since their jobs were considered especially stressful. And Hitler himself was a vegetarian.
 
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This is one of America's finest career diplomats and I can discern no motive for him to lie about his experiences - however, he was writing about the Pakistan of the 1980s, not today.

It's good to see that some prominent Pakistanis embrace animals rather than kick them. However, I know my world history well enough to know that being an animal lover is not itself a guarantee of humane conduct when it comes to affairs. Some of the most murderous revolutionaries and criminals kept private zoos, loved their wives and families dearly, and fed squirrels out of the palms of their hands even as they guillotined or shot their victims. There was no branch of the Nazi military that received as much family leave as the staff of the death camps, since their jobs were considered especially stressful. And Hitler himself was a vegetarian.

your back... what happened to the good bye thread?


p.s here is mine:

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This is one of America's finest career diplomats and I can discern no motive for him to lie about his experiences - however, he was writing about the Pakistan of the 1980s, not today.

It's good to see that some prominent Pakistanis embrace animals rather than kick them. However, I know my world history well enough to know that being an animal lover is not itself a guarantee of humane conduct when it comes to affairs. Some of the most murderous revolutionaries and criminals kept private zoos, loved their wives and families dearly, and fed squirrels out of the palms of their hands even as they guillotined or shot their victims. There was no branch of the Nazi military that received as much family leave as the staff of the death camps, since their jobs were considered especially stressful. And Hitler himself was a vegetarian.
Maybe Pakistan in the 80's was that bad, I don't know but i don't think so either. Perhaps it had something to do with the area the diplomat worked in, some areas have more juvenile and immature people than others.

It's good to see that some prominent Pakistanis embrace animals rather than kick them. However, I know my world history well enough to know that being an animal lover is not itself a guarantee of humane conduct when it comes to affairs

So Pakistanis are bad because they hate animals, but when a Pakistani likes animals, you say that even Hitler liked animals meaning that even if Pakistanis like animals, they are bad?

I don't understand what you're trying to imply with this. If you're trying to say that we should be humane towards both animals and people, then great, I agree with you and so does Islam and the majority of Pakistan.
 
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So Pakistanis are bad because they hate animals, but when a Pakistani likes animals, you say that even Hitler liked animals meaning that even if Pakistanis like animals, they are bad?
No. It's that liking animals - especially if limited to photo-ops designed to make the politician appear cuddly - are an unreliable basis for casting your lot with his.
 
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No. It's that liking animals - especially if limited to photo-ops designed to make the politician appear cuddly - are an unreliable basis for casting your lot with his.
I agree with that completely. We have lots of basis for supporting Imran Khan though, not just the fact that he likes dogs.
 
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Please stop comparing Quaid e Azam with Imran Khan. Its insult for our Quaid. Secondly why we discuss such childish things . If saad rafique said something stupid dont mean we should waste 10 pages discussing it on PDF.

Thirdly imran has habit to abuse and to make fun of others in jalsa then he should expect same stupid statement from others. If he care to think twice before opening his aggressive mouth then others will also think twice before giving such stupid statement

Right on.
 
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Please stop comparing Quaid e Azam with Imran Khan. Its insult for our Quaid. Secondly why we discuss such childish things . If saad rafique said something stupid dont mean we should waste 10 pages discussing it on PDF.

Thirdly imran has habit to abuse and to make fun of others in jalsa then he should expect same stupid statement from others. If he care to think twice before opening his aggressive mouth then others will also think twice before giving such stupid statement


He was pleasing a certain group within Pakistan. A lot of Pakistanis hold the opinion of his. That is why when he said that in Parliament, there were many people thumping the table. So he is not wrong about his opinion.

The rest can agree or disagree with that statement.

Furthermore, stop cherry picking on the founder. His daughter married a non Muslim. Does it mean it's permissible for all Pakistanis to marry a non Muslim?
 
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I lived in Pakistan for the majority of my life.
I admit that Pakistanis don't care much about animals , especially dogs, but this story makes Pakistan look multiple times worse than it really is.


I could post dozens of pictures of Americans beating animals to death or forcing dogs to fight to death.



Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.



Why would they laugh? Why would they go out of their way to hit the dog? Never happened infront of me in my decades of life in Pakistan and I never heard of it happening either. I never heard anyone laughing about killing or hurting an animal (except lizards, everyone hates those and children sometimes go around shooting them with BB guns).

I had a German Shepherd there and I didn't keep him in a cage or anything and I took him on small walks regularly. Guess what? No one laughed at me, no one stoned him to death, no one said anything. They just stopped to look at him sometimes. And this wasn't a posh area either, it was a village.

People were actually interested in animals in Pakistan. There's a whole culture of animal breeders and they even have dog/cat shows and (perfectly humane) competitions. People used to talk to me about my pet GSD and admired his obedience.

I read the full story and the message it sends is that Pakistanis are all cruel sadistic bastards who enjoy killing animals and treat their women like animals. That's not true at all.

The women have problems and less independence than what you see in the west, mostly because of the family structure etc but they are in no way treated like animals. Women in the west have just as many problems though, don't pretend there's no domestic violence in America.
To my understanding this is your best post. Bravo.
 
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Contrast with this rant by an outraged American diplomat (event from the early 1980s, I think):

After reading my story about the dead monkey, an old colleague emailed me a nasty picture of two Pakistani boys beating a small puppy to death on a roadside. He wrote under it, "Remember?" I did remember the savagery with which Pakistanis treated animals, especially dogs. They showed no sympathy or empathy for the suffering of animals, and seemed to enjoy inflicting needless pain and death on them. This, of course, was also a society in which women were treated not much better than these animals.

I am not a vegetarian; I recognize the need for some testing of medicines and other products on animals; I eat meats and seafood of all kinds; I have hunted birds and mammals; I have had no problem pulling a weapon on threatening humans. I, however, hate cruelty and despise people who abuse animals or other humans just because they have the power to do so. That was a big problem I had in my service in Muslim countries; one had to turn a blind eye to the big and little savageries of daily life there. Those were quite common in Pakistan. One saw animals, children, and women beaten. I remember a crowd in Peshawar stoning a confused dog to death while children laughed and cheered. Our maid, a Christian widow with a young daughter, had been forced to undergo sterilization by her previous Muslim employer as a condition of her employment. He assumed Christian women were of loose morals, and didn't want her to get pregnant.

When we weren't in Peshawar, or I was on the road, we lived in a big, charmless concrete house in Islamabad. It had a high wall and a large yard. Our immediate neighbors were a Spanish family. The man of the house, Eliseo, worked for the US Embassy and was a superb engineer. He was helping build the new chancery. He barely had escaped with his life when the embassy was attacked. Trapped in his second floor office with a Pakistani employee when the mob set the building on fire, he decided to jump from the window into the screaming horde; his employee did not follow. Eliseo landed on his feet, and although breaking an ankle, he managed to act as though he were part of the attacking crowd. He gradually limped to the back of the mob, and got a ride on a motorcycle to his house. The employee left behind died from the smoke. That experience gave Eliseo a healthy skepticism about life in Pakistan.

Eliseo and I became hunting buddies, and enjoyed going out for boar and birds. He was a superb shot and knew all the good hunting spots. He was also an outstanding cook who could prepare game like nobody else I have ever met.

The Diplowife and I found and adopted a small, underfed, rather ragged puppy who appeared one morning at our gate. I barely stopped the guard from stomping the pup to death. He couldn't understand why we would want such a miserable looking thing. Well, we cleaned him up, and took him to a local veterinarian accustomed to crazy foreigners. The vet vaccinated the pup, and gave us other medicines for him. Our Christian maid cheerfully would cook him some meat and rice every day; our Muslim employees stayed away from him. We named him Kutta, Urdu for dog--not too original, I admit. After three weeks or so he was coming along nicely; he was turning into an affectionate little beast, following me around the cavernous house, ears flapping and tail wagging, and with that grim look of determination that puppies adopt as though they are going on a vital mission. I also enjoyed playing with him in the yard.

One day I was standing outside our gate talking to Eliseo. Our guard cracked the gate open to say something to me and, you guessed it, Kutta slipped out. He ran into the street as a small taxi cab was speeding by. The cab deliberately swerved to hit Kutta, and did so with a sickening thud, and then sped away. I can still see the driver and passengers laughing. Eliseo and I ran out into the street; I scooped up Kutta, but it was obvious the injuries were fatal. Kutta could not move his rear legs, and was coughing blood. I had my wife call the vet, but he wasn't home.

Eliseo said the obvious, "We can't let him suffer like this." I agreed. I went home, and got an old JC Higgins Model 88 .22 LR revolver I had owned since childhood. I loaded the thing and walked over to where Eliseo was comforting the dying Kutta. He stood up and made way for me. I crouched down, with my left hand grabbed Kutta by both ears, and with my right put the barrel of the revolver against the back of his small head. My hand began to shake uncontrollably. There was no way I could pull the trigger. I began to feel a powerful sensation of nausea. I looked up at Eliseo, and said to him in Spanish, "No lo puedo hacer" ("I can't do it"). Eliseo, himself fighting back tears, said, "Move, I'll do it." In what seemed one swift movement, he grabbed Kutta by the ears, put the revolver near the back of the puppy's head, and fired. Kutta died instantly. I threw up.

Eliseo gave me the revolver, which I stuffed into my belt. He helped me wrap up Kutta in an old towel. As I was burying Kutta in our yard, the guard came up to me and said, "You should have let me kill him when he first showed up." I glared at him, but successfully fought my urge to pull out the JC Higgins and empty it into his stupid smiling face. I don't think I would have thrown up.

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Which culture will prevail in Pakistan? That's a good question.


This story shares multiple traumas this poor soul suffered.

Even though he mentions it briefly, the horrible act of embassy burning took place in 1979, immediately following attack in Saudi Arabia on Mecca mosque.

A rumor spread in Pakistan like wild fire (in pre-cell phone days), that some how Americans have conspired to capture the holy mosque.

thus the frenzied mobs attacked pretty much every major American building in Lahore, Karachi, and Islamabad.

American cultural centers, consulates, and yes sadly the embassy in Islu were overun by mobs.

The worst attrocity occured in Islu where the embassy was burned to ashes.


Oh and the holy mosque in Mecca?

Saudis themselves nay extremist Saudi Islamists attacked and damaged the holy mosque. (these goons were the predecessors of modern day Qaida and ISIL)


However Americans quickly realized that same Jamat Islami that burned and attacked embassy and consulates, is in fact a very good ally.

How?

Soon Jihad in Afghanistan started.

that's how.

So these are two extreme sides of Pakistani society.

Extremely loyal to USA

and yes

the other side is

Extremely anti-USA.


It is upto you to pick which side you want to work with.


peace.


p.s. Dog story is heart wrenching for sure. I saw animal cruelty with my own eyes.
But at the same time, many families kept pets, and yes dogs. rescued them and saved them from cruel people.

Again it is your choice to look at the cruel side of Pakistani society or the humane one. your choice.

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I read the full story and the message it sends is that Pakistanis are all cruel sadistic bastards who enjoy killing animals and treat their women like animals. That's not true at all..

our record of attacking minority sect members is horrible horrible horrible.

So please, no need to be defensive.

Our flaws are flaws. unless we accept that we have flaws, we'll never fix them. and address them.

Our society is totally stressed out and traumatized with years of Islamist attacks, suicide bombs. And if you lived in a peaceful island of dog lovers, no one will doubt it. you speak truth.

However that doesn't mean we don't have serious serious issues with human rights and animal rights.

peace
 
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p.s. Dog story is heart wrenching for sure. I saw animal cruelty with my own eyes.
But at the same time, many families kept pets, and yes dogs. rescued them and saved them from cruel people.

Again it is your choice to look at the cruel side of Pakistani society or the humane one. your choice.

our record of attacking minority sect members is horrible horrible horrible.

So please, no need to be defensive.

Our flaws are flaws. unless we accept that we have flaws, we'll never fix them. and address them.

Our society is totally stressed out and traumatized with years of Islamist attacks, suicide bombs. And if you lived in a peaceful island of dog lovers, no one will doubt it. you speak truth.

However that doesn't mean we don't have serious serious issues with human rights and animal rights.

peace

The dog story is heart-wrenching for me too but I don't like that it makes Pakistanis look like sadistic killers. Yes, I admit our flaws and issues but we're not all that bad. Some Pakistanis sure are, but every society has its share of criminals and bad people.
I didn't live in a place full of dog lovers, there were people who gave dirty looks or avoided my dog, but no one was so hateful to try and injure him or anything.

The minority sect problem is indeed horrible.

Again it is your choice to look at the cruel side of Pakistani society or the humane one. your choice.
This basically sums up the whole debate. There's a cruel side and a humane one.
 
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p.s. Dog story is heart wrenching for sure. I saw animal cruelty with my own eyes.
But at the same time, many families kept pets, and yes dogs. rescued them and saved them from cruel people.
Again it is your choice to look at the cruel side of Pakistani society or the humane one. your choice...Our society is totally stressed out and traumatized with years of Islamist attacks, suicide bombs. And if you lived in a peaceful island of dog lovers, no one will doubt it. you speak truth.
I suppose one should also emphasize that the impressions a diplomat receives from the citizens of the country he or she is posted to are very important. Whether or not the people he or she meets are "typical", they will be classed as such in the diplomat's mind, at least until greater experience is gained. (I learned that the hard way as a teenager when the words I spoke to a diplomat's son were interpreted in a way I didn't intend. Lucky for me social media didn't exist then!)

The Pakistan situation has been especially sensitive since the 1979 embassy-burning episode. Some U.S. diplomats in Pakistan practically became prisoners in their own homes. It cannot have helped that this American had an unsympathetic, even hostile, guard at the front of his home. For the guard to first try to kill the dog, then let it run into the street, to be run over with popular acclaim, made a very bad impression, but perhaps not as bad as the fact that nobody cared enough to rebuke their fellow Pakistanis for such awful conduct.
 
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I suppose one should also emphasize that the impressions a diplomat receives from the citizens of the country he or she is posted to are very important. Whether or not the people he or she meets are "typical", they will be classed as such in the diplomat's mind, at least until greater experience is gained. (I learned that the hard way as a teenager when the words I spoke to a diplomat's son were interpreted in a way I didn't intend. Lucky for me social media didn't exist then!)

The Pakistan situation has been especially sensitive since the 1979 embassy-burning episode. Some U.S. diplomats in Pakistan practically became prisoners in their own homes. It cannot have helped that this American had an unsympathetic, even hostile, guard at the front of his home. For the guard to first try to kill the dog, then let it run into the street, to be run over with popular acclaim, made a very bad impression, but perhaps not as bad as the fact that nobody cared enough to rebuke their fellow Pakistanis for such awful conduct.

No disagreements Solomon. none whatsoever.

We as Pakistanis did a horrible job in terms of protecting diplomats.

I have had the pleasure of meeting American and other diplomats in Pakistan and in their home countries.

Majority of them have genuine desire (and many cases, love) for their host country.

yeah yeah, there are intelligence officers too. But hey I said "majority".


And

yes we can divide our history in two phases.

Pre-1979 and post-1979.

One of the US ambassadors from pre-1979 has been on record that him and his wife wanted to retire and settle in Karachi, build a house, and enjoy the later years.

Sadly we destroyed Karachi, nay Pakistan with out own hands.

very sadly.

I wonder if NS can Put a lagam to his ministers

Sadly they are now using IK and TuQ language.
 
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