IAF Fighter Roles and Mission profiles --When and how will they be used ?

[indushek]

What PRC can do or will do is left to anyone's imagination. I am interested in Air war scenarios regardless of how the governments will function.

At this point in time we face a counter in PAF (PRC not yet). So i am interested in a Air to Air scenarios wrt to PAF.

One thing i cant figure out is effective utilisation of AWACS. Both sides have AWACS , so there will no tactical surprises to speak. So the question is how to over come the AWACS system ?

I think this missile is our answer to the AWACS threat

The Novator K-100 is a Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer"[4] at ranges up to 300–400 km (160-210 mi). The missile has had various names during its troubled history, including Izdeliye 172 ('Article 172'), AAM-L (RVV-L), KS–172, KS-1, 172S-1 and R-172. The airframe appears to have been derived from the 9K37 Buk surface-to-air missile (SAM) but development stalled in the mid-1990s for lack of funds.[4] It appears to have restarted in 2004 after a deal with India, who wants to produce the missile in India for their Su-30MKI fighters.


Engine Solid-propellant tandem rocket booster (KS–172)[1]

Wingspan 61 cm (24 in) (KS–172)[1]

Operational
range At least 200km,[2] possibly 300–400 km (160-210 nmi)

Flight altitude 3 m (9.8 ft)–30,000 m (98,000 ft) (KS–172)[1]

Speed "up to" 4,000 km/h (2,500 mph) (KS–172)[1]

Guidance
system inertial navigation with midcourse guidance and active radar for terminal homing (KS–172)[1]

Launch
platform Su-27, Su-30, Su-35,[3] Su-30MKI[1]

Look at the operational range 400 km , this can be a game changer. I don't know if there is a AWACS killer with such a range. Even Chinese variant YJ-91 is up to 150 kms it seems. So our aircraft can shoot them (AWACS) from outside its range without engaging the fighter cover around it.

Please correct me if i am wrong at any point.

 

[anathema]

I think this missile is our answer to the AWACS threat

The Novator K-100 is a Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer"[4] at ranges up to 300–400 km (160-210 mi). The missile has had various names during its troubled history, including Izdeliye 172 ('Article 172'), AAM-L (RVV-L), KS–172, KS-1, 172S-1 and R-172. The airframe appears to have been derived from the 9K37 Buk surface-to-air missile (SAM) but development stalled in the mid-1990s for lack of funds.[4] It appears to have restarted in 2004 after a deal with India, who wants to produce the missile in India for their Su-30MKI fighters.


Please correct me if i am wrong at any point.

You are correct in the sense that this CAN be GAME changer. However it is a untested, unproven platform. To hit target from 200+ KM range requires radically complex technology considering the fact that SAAB AWECS will notice the missile streaming towards it. It will try and will evade the missile , if it is not possible to shake of the missile , then one of the excort fighters will try to destroy this missile or will try to sacrifice itself to defend a high value asset. However it will interesting to see what would happen in a saturation attack .i.e Su 30's launches number of NOVATOR missiles at its target.

However what you have shown is a way to neautralize the threat. But the question is how to fool the AWACS ? Is there a way to do it ?

Diversionary tactics come into mind --

AWACS always causes a problem for operating Air forces. True you might not hear everyone saying this, but this is true !! How ? Becauses it causes Air controllers to inspect every little Air intrusion/Air objects which otherwise it would have never inspect. If IAF or PAF can make multiple attempts to make the intrusion look real but back at the last moment -- this will cause a severe pain but still will not achive surprise...However i still am not sure how can we achieve tactical surprise if AWACS are present in the picture.

Only way i guess to achieve surprise for IAF or PAF is too drive the AWACS outside its operational range !!

 

[anathema]

Good night folks...will try to pick up the thread tomorrow !! Hope more members can contribute.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I think this missile is our answer to the AWACS threat

The Novator K-100 is a Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer"[4] at ranges up to 300–400 km (160-210 mi). The missile has had various names during its troubled history, including Izdeliye 172 ('Article 172'), AAM-L (RVV-L), KS–172, KS-1, 172S-1 and R-172. The airframe appears to have been derived from the 9K37 Buk surface-to-air missile (SAM) but development stalled in the mid-1990s for lack of funds.[4] It appears to have restarted in 2004 after a deal with India, who wants to produce the missile in India for their Su-30MKI fighters.


Engine Solid-propellant tandem rocket booster (KS–172)[1]

Wingspan 61 cm (24 in) (KS–172)[1]

Operational
range At least 200km,[2] possibly 300–400 km (160-210 nmi)

Flight altitude 3 m (9.8 ft)–30,000 m (98,000 ft) (KS–172)[1]

Speed "up to" 4,000 km/h (2,500 mph) (KS–172)[1]

Guidance
system inertial navigation with midcourse guidance and active radar for terminal homing (KS–172)[1]

Launch
platform Su-27, Su-30, Su-35,[3] Su-30MKI[1]

Look at the operational range 400 km , this can be a game changer. I don't know if there is a AWACS killer with such a range. Even Chinese variant YJ-91 is up to 150 kms it seems. So our aircraft can shoot them (AWACS) from outside its range without engaging the fighter cover around it.

Please correct me if i am wrong at any point.

For such a long range missile to work perfectly and achieve a kill, lot of factors are gonna play a part, the counter measures employed, the range at which the target is, the range at which the launching platform is, the target to be picked up by the radars and then to have a constant lock for providing the guidance to the missile till it reaches the point from where its own radar picks up with target etc etc etc.

PAF AEW&Cs major role would be to monitor & control Pakistani air space and have some what little bit of early warning of any intruding aircraft, for that, the PAF AEW&C can do the job by being pretty deep inside the Pakistani airspace, thus for such a missile to work perfectly, lot of factors as suggested above will have to be looked into.

 

[soaringphnx]

Dude I know the response from Pakistani poster, they will nuke us and annihilate us. There will be no place for our planes to land.

Firing nukes is not as easy as you think. This would lead to huge diplomatic pressure and a slew of sanctions. Firing nukes from one side would provoke the other to retaliate with their own nukes. This fear of a full fledged thermo-nuclear war is enough to prevent both sides from using nukes. IMO, the nukes in most countries are just to keep other countries at bay with the threat of a nuclear attack. The only possibility for the use of nukes is as a possible act of desperation when one side is over-whelmed by the other, but even this has a low probability. So, let's not include nukes in this discussion.

 

[Moorkh]

first thing is intel on sam sites . The only way if we want to take out the sams without any losses is to use cruise missiles. for now we have only one full operational cruise missile. so probably at a max we can hit sam sites located within 300 mile zone . second if the same sites are mobile then this will be a big headache for IAF and considerable losses

you cant actually try launching the missiles from right on the border. because in that case the launchers will be taken out by PA arty fire. make it more like 250km into enemy territory.

 

[karan.1970]

you cant actually try launching the missiles from right on the border. because in that case the launchers will be taken out by PA arty fire. make it more like 250km into enemy territory.

Unless the Cruise Missile is lauched by a bird in the sky

 

[Mirza Jatt]

You are correct in the sense that this CAN be GAME changer. However it is a untested, unproven platform. To hit target from 200+ KM range requires radically complex technology considering the fact that SAAB AWECS will notice the missile streaming towards it. It will try and will evade the missile , if it is not possible to shake of the missile , then one of the excort fighters will try to destroy this missile or will try to sacrifice itself to defend a high value asset. However it will interesting to see what would happen in a saturation attack .i.e Su 30's launches number of NOVATOR missiles at its target.

well, thats is the only possible way that seem to shoot down the awac...if a number of k-100 are shot toward the target....a single novator will easily be detected by the awac (thats waht its there for)...and the missile can easily be evaded...and ofcourse this might end up drawing too much attention toward the safety of the awacs itself....

 

[soaringphnx]

How about this scenario:

SAM sites close to the border are destroyed with the help of ballistic or cruise missiles. Supported by AEWACS (which remain on our side of the border) the Su-30MKI's escort our Mirages on strike missions destroying key bridges, roads, radar installations and refineries to slow operations of the PAF and pakistan army. Pakistani missile silos should be taken out very quickly to prevent a nuclear retaliation. The Su-30MKIs engege and destroy any enemy fighters they encounter to gain and maintain air superiority. The Brahmos equipped Su-30MKIs can also be used to take out targets deep in Pakistan. High value assets like AEWACS and tankers are likely to be well protected and should be countered by Su-30MKIs attacking in waves and many novator missiles fired at once so that there is a higher chance of success. Another strategy will be to engage all PAF aircraft and bring down their numbers so that PAF will be forced to divert fighters protecting their high value assets for other missions. This gives the Su-30MKIs the chance to take down the PAF AEWACS with minimal loss. MiG-29s and MiG-21s will have a defensive role to prevent enemy aircraft from attacking IAF bases.

However, things become different if the Chinese decide to interfere. So, the attack on Pakistani bases has to be very quick so that we can afford to divert our fighters to defend against a Chinese attack. Our border with China should be heavily fortified. Since the Chinese have a clear advantage in numbers, the IAF may be forced into the defensive.

 

[TaimiKhan]

How about this scenario:

SAM sites close to the border are destroyed with the help of ballistic or cruise missiles. Supported by AEWACS (which remain on our side of the border) the Su-30MKI's escort our Mirages on strike missions destroying key bridges, roads, radar installations and refineries to slow operations of the PAF and pakistan army. Pakistani missile silos should be taken out very quickly to prevent a nuclear retaliation. The Su-30MKIs engege and destroy any enemy fighters they encounter to gain and maintain air superiority. The Brahmos equipped Su-30MKIs can also be used to take out targets deep in Pakistan. High value assets like AEWACS and tankers are likely to be well protected and should be countered by Su-30MKIs attacking in waves and many novator missiles fired at once so that there is a higher chance of success. Another strategy will be to engage all PAF aircraft and bring down their numbers so that PAF will be forced to divert fighters protecting their high value assets for other missions. This gives the Su-30MKIs the chance to take down the PAF AEWACS with minimal loss. MiG-29s and MiG-21s will have a defensive role to prevent enemy aircraft from attacking IAF bases.

However, things become different if the Chinese decide to interfere. So, the attack on Pakistani bases has to be very quick so that we can afford to divert our fighters to defend against a Chinese attack. Our border with China should be heavily fortified. Since the Chinese have a clear advantage in numbers, the IAF may be forced into the defensive.

wow,

am impressed.

 

[soaringphnx]

Unless the Cruise Missile is lauched by a bird in the sky

With a Su-30MKI modified to carry the Brahmos, that is actually possible!

 

[Markus]

In a full fledged war, IAF's base in Tajikistan (when operational) will also help in diverting PAF resources.

 

[Indiarox]

In a full fledged war, IAF's base in Tajikistan (when operational) will also help in diverting PAF resources.

True! It also depends on the quality of the aircraft Assigned to that base.

 

[deckingraj]

In a full fledged war, IAF's base in Tajikistan (when operational) will also help in diverting PAF resources.

True! It also depends on the quality of the aircraft Assigned to that base.

Well if we go by reports then 12-14 Mig-29 are stationed there(obviously denied by GOI and Tajik Govt)....However not sure what are the paradigms of this base...Cna someone tell if we can use that base during war with Pakistan??? This will defnitely provoke a retaliation by PAF...Under such circumstances how secure this base would be?? In other words in was will be an asset or a liability....

P.S : Don't jump on my neck....Just curiosity to raising doubts....

 

[Dash]

Well if we go by reports then 12-14 Mig-29 are stationed there(obviously denied by GOI and Tajik Govt)....However not sure what are the paradigms of this base...Cna someone tell if we can use that base during war with Pakistan??? This will defnitely provoke a retaliation by PAF...Under such circumstances how secure this base would be?? In other words in was will be an asset or a liability....

P.S : Don't jump on my neck....Just curiosity to raising doubts....

What you are saying is true.
What I think is that this base can be useful for special ops.
and currently as per official reports we have only kept Mi-17 attack helis there, there is a squadron operating from there.