IAF Fighter Roles and Mission profiles --When and how will they be used ?

[anathema]

All 3 methods you mentioned are not effective in bringing down the AEW&C, satellite guidance is provided to mostly land attack missiles and bombs, for A2A it has not been used.

For AEW&C, first of all the launching platform has to find and track the aerial platform, and it would be a tough job to do so, but once done, then it will have to launch the missile, so now once launched, the aircraft which launched has to keep the AEW&C in its radar to keep the missile feeding the location of the target to an extend where the missile reaches and its own radar takes over, which i believe is mostly 50-60KM away from the target or so.



Missile guidance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not exactly true ....AWACS can guide a missile. .i.e Aircraft will fire a missile and let the IAF AWACS do the guidance. However i have to say that i dont think this has ever been achived practically by anyone (even USAF)...although it might be confidential.

 

[anathema]

AWAC and MKI have ECM systems but problem with nowadays SAMs is, that if they are being jammed, then they switch to passive homing, meaning they go for the source of the jamming, thus a very good set of counter measures would be needed to jam or counter SAMs. USA has so far a very good record of SEAD.

Taimi ,

Are you sure a single SAM missile has both active and passive homing ? If SAM is fired in salvo's then two seperate missiles can have active and a passive homing but not in one missile atleast not to my knowledge.
Only SAM system that i know which lauches both active and passive homing missiles is the Israeli SPIKE -- which launches a combination of Derby and Python missiles.

 

[anathema]

Definitely they will come with escorts, but problem is if they come into Pakistan's air space, it will not only have to face the interceptors, rather also if not destroyed SAM batteries, thus within enemy territory, with BVR equipped interceptors, SAM batteries still active, it is gonna be one hell of a task for the MKI to shoot down AEW&C. Lets suppose even if we have SAM batteries, even before the MKIs enter Pakistani airspace, they will be in the sights of the SAMs and as they approach nearer targets for SAMs will become bigger. As said, it is one hell of a job, high risk, high chances of getting many aircraft downed.

Great points....But is there a possibility that SAM stations can be jammed by Su 30 MKI or Phalcons ? I do know that the F16 Blck 52 that you recieved does have a Jamming pod (correct me if i am wrong).

The scenario i am thinking about is similar to F18 Growler ...where in Growler goes ahead and jams the air defences for the following aircraft to easily take them out.

I do not know if MKI has this capability - but i do know that it has ECW/ jamming capabilities.

As far as I know, PAF AWAC would be atleast 250-300 KM inside from the border, even if it had 400KM detection and tracking range, all PAF needs is to see inside of India from 50-100KM deep, to know about any incoming aircraft, as PAF does not needs to look 300Km deep inside in India, PAF wants AWACS for early warning, even a 5-10 minute early warning is more then enough to launch interceptors, and control the fleet in air through these AWACS, we have defensive doctrine for these AWACS, not offensive. Plus, these AWAC are gonna be supported by land based assets, who can also see incoming aircraft from far away, so AWAC is not the only asset for detecting enemy.

True --- I think it will be luck if we either side can take AWACS out.

So even if PAF AWAC is 300KM deep inside Pakistan, for the MKI to detect it and then keep an eye on it, with what radar specifications you gave, it will have to come into Pak territory or be very very close to the border and i believe the big problem would be that the MKI will have to keep its nose towards Pakistan to keep tracking the AWAC, thus with the nose toward Pakistan, it will have to move in slowly towards Pakistan, as if it changes in flight path and the radar loses its coverage area where the AWAC was, the missile if launched will be not getting its coordinates, and the MKI will have to again position itself to acquire the AWAC once again.

I did not understand the above para of yours ..!!

 

[deckingraj]

Su 30 would be launching platform but it doesnt necessarily need to be present to guide the missile all the way.

It can fire the missile from 200 KM (or whatever), guide the missile for some time or let the missile be interially guided(which is a foolish choice i believe) and then let the rest of the guidance be done PHALCON AWACS.
Theoretically it is possible for PHALCON AWACS (or AWECS)to guide a missile towards target --- practically not sure if it has ever been achived. I believe GAMBIT explained this long back.

I agree with the Bold part though...a lot of luck will come into play.

I agree...However this base is definitely going to do one thing....Reserves from PAF to ensure there can be no surprise from their Western Border....As far China is concerned then weather they enter or not we have to keep reserves for them....Not sure what would be Russian reaction if China choose to enter as they are no longer USSR and this is not 70's....but expect lot of US intervention(covertly) if China choose to enter....

Still pretty much agree with your post.....

 

[anathema]

I agree...However this base is definitely going to do one thing....Reserves from PAF to ensure there can be no surprise from their Western Border....As far China is concerned then weather they enter or not we have to keep reserves for them....Not sure what would be Russian reaction if China choose to enter as they are no longer USSR and this is not 70's....but expect lot of US intervention(covertly) if China choose to enter....

Still pretty much agree with your post.....

Sorry Deckinraaj , i didnt understand that. All reserves from PAF would be committed for WAR , what exactly are you refering to ?

With regards to Russian intervention - Russia might codemn if chinese intervenes - but thats about it. China is as important to Russia as India i believe....

Covert intervention of USA ....This would be a strategic nightmare for them..Pakistan and china fighting India, i dont see how they can help us except from a equipment POV. Unless and untill India explicitly asks for US help but this can mean a base in India...If US overtly joins the war then expect all Islamic nations get riled up !! It has a potential to exceed beyond the original intention !! Just my thoughts..

US will defintely try to put world pressure but thats about it.

 

[deckingraj]

Sorry Deckinraaj , i didnt understand that. All reserves from PAF would be committed for WAR , what exactly are you refering to ?

What i mean is that the way we keep reserves for China(to have enough resources on Eastern Border and not use them against Pakistan) the same way they would keep some reserves to cover their Western Border...It cannot be left ungaurded....

With regards to Russian intervention - Russia might codemn if chinese intervenes - but thats about it. China is as important to Russia as India i believe....

Well as said i am not sure....However India and Russia have a time tested freindship so you never know....

Covert intervention of USA ....This would be a strategic nightmare for them..Pakistan and china fighting India, i dont see how they can help us except from a equipment POV. Unless and untill India explicitly asks for US help but this can mean a base in India...If US overtly joins the war then expect all Islamic nations get riled up !! It has a potential to exceed beyond the original intention !! Just my thoughts..

US will defintely try to put world pressure but thats about it.

Again depends...They were willing to help us even during 1962 when China was a counter weight to Russia....US would like to contain China's rising influence and if GOI finds it dificult to contain both CHina and Pak then i am sure we will be giving as many basis to US as they want..Will they jump in or not we don't know....Though there has to be a reason to have an IAF base in Kazik....If we cannot use it during war time then what strategic benefit that base can give it to us??? If we use it for special ops or any ops it would be equivalent to Kazik declaring war on Pak and possibly CHina intervention with no help for GOI...So by that logic this base is pretty useless atleast in the present context...Don't you think???

 

[anathema]

Again depends...They were willing to help us even during 1962 when China was a counter weight to Russia....US would like to contain China's rising influence and if GOI finds it dificult to contain both CHina and Pak then i am sure we will be giving as many basis to US as they want..Will they jump in or not we don't know....Though there has to be a reason to have an IAF base in Kazik....If we cannot use it during war time then what strategic benefit that base can give it to us??? If we use it for special ops or any ops it would be equivalent to Kazik declaring war on Pak and possibly CHina intervention with no help for GOI...So by that logic this base is pretty useless atleast in the present context...Don't you think???

Not exactly -- Special ops is meant to be covert .i.e Special ops should be invisible to the opposing coutries ..If they know it then its no longer a special ops , there is no stealth and no tactical surprise. Hence Special ops can be perfectly used from Tajik base. In case the ops is compromised , Tajik will vehementhly deny their base was ever used ...and they will be safe. Same cannot be said for Fighter operations since they amount to declaration of war.

Also monitoring stations can be present in Tajik base. You said one very good point - PA has to maintain their border alongside AF. Maybe Tajik base will create enough pressure for them to have to MAN it with very high number of troops....who knows...anyways these are all hypothetical, no one knows....

 

[deckingraj]

Not exactly -- Special ops is meant to be covert .i.e Special ops should be invisible to the opposing coutries ..If they know it then its no longer a special ops , there is no stealth and no tactical surprise. Hence Special ops can be perfectly used from Tajik base. In case the ops is compromised , Tajik will vehementhly deny their base was ever used ...and they will be safe. Same cannot be said for Fighter operations since they amount to declaration of war.

Also monitoring stations can be present in Tajik base. You said one very good point - PA has to maintain their border alongside AF. Maybe Tajik base will create enough pressure for them to have to MAN it with very high number of troops....who knows...anyways these are all hypothetical, no one knows....

I think this sums it all....Anyways we both agree that Tajik base is going to increase headache for PAK...something that even Mushy said during his presidency...

 

[anathema]

I think this sums it all....Anyways we both agree that Tajik base is going to increase headache for PAK...something that even Mushy said during his presidency...

Yeah agree...However i do not know anything about Tajik base. Its probably one of the best kept secrets in India. We know that there is a base, but what goes on is anybody's imagination.

 

[indushek]

All 3 methods you mentioned are not effective in bringing down the AEW&C, satellite guidance is provided to mostly land attack missiles and bombs, for A2A it has not been used.

For AEW&C, first of all the launching platform has to find and track the aerial platform, and it would be a tough job to do so, but once done, then it will have to launch the missile, so now once launched, the aircraft which launched has to keep the AEW&C in its radar to keep the missile feeding the location of the target to an extend where the missile reaches and its own radar takes over, which i believe is mostly 50-60KM away from the target or so.

So problem now here would be for the launching platform MKI to keep a track of the AEW&C through out the traveling time of the missile, if it looses the track it won't be able to feed the missile where to go and the missile may go to the last location provided, from where the target may have moved on, MKIs can be attacked also during this time period and they may have to get engaged in dog fight thus the missile will again lose the location feeding, plus other such scenario can come up where the aircraft can lose the missile and the missile can go astray.

Anyway, here is some reading which can be useful in understanding how missile and bomb guidance work, both A2A & A2G or even SAMs.

Missile guidance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for this info sir and the read was good.

 

[indushek]

hahahhahahahaha, yeah i thought Sultan Rahi may counter him, but alas he can't, no one can beat deol bhai from our side. He is the number 1.

And as for IAF Vs PAF, what i believe is that IAF will never use its full strength against PAF, as they would keep some assets in reserve, you can call it the China factor, China factor in the sense that China will not do anything on our behalf, but it will keep some of its assets away from the battle field to be safe for contingency as assets employed would be used a lot, operationally, some may get destroyed, damaged, in air, on ground, thus I believe IAF will keep some of its front line fighters away from the battle front as reserve.

Thus we may not see a full IAF onslaught, thus the number superiority might not be much but off course quality wise it will be there for now.

For PAF best option is to get a good radar coverage, and a LR-SAM system, which will take off much of the load from PAF fighters for area defence and free them for ground support as well as for other assignments.

LR-SAM which is mobile, more likely something on the basis of HQ-9 with minimum 150KM range, 200+KM would be another bonus. They should be mobile, thus hard for the enemy to suppress and destroy.

For now only MKIs are the major threat for us, which we need to counter asap, in shorter term, as mentioned a LR-SAM can do that, in long run, good quality 4.5 gen aircraft, F-16 Blk 52s, FC-20s.

And as for fighters, we currently have F-16s, majority of them would be used for aerial defence rather then deep strike missions, Mirages which are equipped for aerial defence as well as deep strike missions and F-7s which are limited to aerial defence as well as for ground support missions, JF-17s are just coming in, for now they are gonna be mostly for ground attack role cum aerial defence.

Cruise Missiles Babur & Ra'ad can be heavily used for attacking air fields to keep up pressure and after initial phase of war if PAF is able to deny air superiority to IAF, it can go on the offensive.

One thing which i see and as mentioned by some Indian members, IAF if sends its aircraft for attaining aerial superiority in initial stages gets some heavy losses, it may change the whole outcome of the aerial war, as it can have negative effects, so for me it would be necessary for PAF to down or damage as much IAF planes as possible in the initial stages of war, with as much minimum losses for PAF, so that IAF doesn't achieves aerial superiority. For this as said, a good LR-SAM is necessary as PAF alone can't achieve the results which i just said.

This i found extremely interesting info and i would like to add with my little knowledge that i think , how many scenarios or preparations we do there will always be the unknown factor in a war right just like a cricket. Don't know if my comparision was right or wrong.

P.S even we can never replace deol bhai

 

[indushek]

Salvo to where ? It is not as easy as it sounds. For this mission to be succesful the Novator missile either should have a lock on after launch capability or some body should actually guide this missile to AWACS.

Further there should be both passive and active homing heads on this missiles OR there should be two types of missiles in a salvo mode (the way it is with R77). Why ?

AWACS (not sure about SAAB AWECS) is a powerful jammer device. It can easily jamm incoming missile. Further if it is not able to jamm then it can switch of its radar which would cause active sensor to fail but passive can still hom in one radiation caused by the aircraft. But there is still the issue of flairs /chaff's etc....

If there is a succesful shot against AWACS, it would call it a pure luck and nothing else. BUT, what these kinds missions can do is --- Make the PAF AWECS extremely cautious which can be used to advantage , same applies to IAF AWACS. However india has bit more strategic depth which it can use.

And what happens if we miss ? If the mission is a failure ? What happens if the AWEC is too well protected ?

You see there is no surprises ever since AWACS has come on both sides. .i.e we cannot carry out raids that IAF or PAF used to carry out. Gone are those days !! In this kind of situation how should we counter AWAC situation ? Is there a possibility to fool AWACS ? Can it be done ? How to counter the AWEC situation ?

Like i said Diversionary tactics come into mind but still surprise is not achieved. AWACS killer missile can be used and these may force the respective AWACS to operate well beyond the monitoring range which can be used to advantage but still there is no surprise !!

All in all -- Ever since AWACS has come into picture i feel it is going to be a war about numbers.. .i.e who ever as more numbers and more accurate weapon delivery systems dominates.

Note :- Pakistan will have atleast 6 AWECS -- neautralizing all 6 of them is anything but possible. We may get one but there's just too many.[/QUOTE]

Well as i have told u before i am still learning and about the guidance thing Mr.Taimikhan has pointed out to me which i was not aware of previously. After the read i have another doubt say the AWACS does jam missiles too but how many can it jam simultaneously??

 

[indushek]

JANE'S MISSILES AND ROCKETS - MARCH 01, 2004
==================================

Novator offers a redesigned KS-172S-1 long-range AAM
Piotr Butowski

Sukhoi has displayed a model of the Su-35 multirole fighter carrying under its wings two KS-172S-1 ultra-long range air-to-air missiles, writes Piotr Butowski. The weapon is an export variant of a missile originally offered to the Russian Air Force by the Novator Company of Yekaterinburg.

Work on the KS-172 air-to-air missile began in 1991. Alternative designations 'Izdeliye 172 (K-172)' and the anglicised 'AAM-L' have also been reported. The basis of the new weapon was the second stage of the 3M83 surface-to-air missile used by the S-300V (SA-12 Gladiator) anti-aircraft system.

A full-scale mock-up of the KS-172 was shown in front of Su-27 fighter at Zhukovsky in August 1993. but over the next 10 years there was no further news of the project. The model shown late last year has a different shape to that of the mock-up shown in 1993. Both versions have a two-stage propulsion system, but in the current KS-172S-1 design the length of the tandem-mounted booster has been increased while its diameter has been reduced. The length of the missile without booster has been reduced so that the overall length of the complete round is unchanged.

According to Novator, the KS-172S-1 is 6.0m long and weighs 700kg, dimensions which are unchanged from those announced in 1993. Its diameter has been reported as 40cm.

In the 1993 design, the nose section of the missile was of smaller diameter than the rest of the fuselage, a configuration which proves additional internal volume for the rocket motor. In the current design, the fuselage is of constant diameter, and the tail-mounted cruciform control fins are of shorter span and longer chord.

The missile is guided to the target by a multi-mode guidance system typical for beyond-visual range missiles. In the first phase of flight, guidance is by inertial navigation with command updates in the mid-course phase. An active-radar seeker is used for terminal guidance. According to earlier reports, the missile carries a directional high-explosive (HE) fragmentation warhead, probably weighing about 50kg, and initiated by a radar proximity fuze.

Maximum range of the KS-172S-1 export variant is 300km; the version proposed for Russian air forces is believed to have a range of 400km. The missile will be used against air targets flying at altitudes from 3m to 30km with speeds up to 4,000km/h and manoeuvring at up to 12g. Typical targets could include all types of aircraft (including AWACS or J-STARS platforms, tankers, reconnaissance and electronic-warfare aircraft), cruise missiles, as well as long and medium-range anti-aircraft missiles which pose a threat to the KS-172-armed fighter.

Several test launches of the KS-172 have been made, but these rounds were not fitted with a guidance system. The firing of rounds fitted only with an autopilot and programmed to fly pre-planned manoeuvres is common in the early stages of air-to-air missile programmes.

The Russian air force did not adopt the KS-172, but opted to back a competing K-37M missile offered by Vympel. It is surprising to see that the Novator weapon is now being offered for export.

This is cheating cheating cheating cheating cheating

Post reported reported reported

U copied my post, i posted this article in this same thread

sorry was in a good mood today but i did post it before

 

[TaimiKhan]

Not exactly true ....AWACS can guide a missile. .i.e Aircraft will fire a missile and let the IAF AWACS do the guidance. However i have to say that i dont think this has ever been achived practically by anyone (even USAF)...although it might be confidential.

It can guide a missile if the missile has data link capability, and for AWAC to guide it, it needs to keep a track of the target.

PAF AWAC would be 250-300KM away from the border, similarly, Indian AWAC will be 250-300KM or so away from the border, thus in total there would be a 500+KM distance between both of them, now here, will the data link be able to transmit at such long distances ?? And then the 450-500KM distance between both AWAC, can the IAF AWAC keep a track of the PAF AWAC or even find it at such long distances, such questions arises.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimi ,

Are you sure a single SAM missile has both active and passive homing ? If SAM is fired in salvo's then two seperate missiles can have active and a passive homing but not in one missile atleast not to my knowledge.
Only SAM system that i know which lauches both active and passive homing missiles is the Israeli SPIKE -- which launches a combination of Derby and Python missiles.

Yeah, nowadays modern BVR missiles are capable to do both active and passive homing, with same seeker.

Derby has an active seeker as well as a passive one, while Python is an optically tracked missile, meaning it goes after heat signatures, itsn an IR based missile.

Active homing is done by the radar in the missile nose cone, but once it gets to be jammed, the radar won't be able to work, but the passive seeker then starts its work and homes on the source from where the jamming is coming.