I have a Question: to which western country we can compare Turkey in science and technology?.

[KediKesenFare3]

Also like Turkey Poland designs its own small arms.

Which is comparable to making...

I've no doubt those will be fantastic airframes, but I can also point to similar collaborations between Poland and its defence partners. Norway is joining Poland to develop an advanced air defence system, German to develop submarines, the Americans a host of systems.

Turkey is largely comparable to Poland in terms of each's respective defence industry. There are some areas where one has a design the other doesn't - Poland doesn't make anti-ship missiles and instead uses Norway's NSM and Sweden's RBS15 where as Turkey has its own designs, but their similarities are closer then their differences. The two sides produce similar high-quality equipment, upgrade existing designs and are collaborating with international partners on next-generation platforms. Both are trending in the same direction.

Thanks for your explanation. You're right in general. But I still doubt that Poland has the same industrial capabilities as Turkey. Even though both states are using foreign designs as you have rightly pointed out I am pretty sure that the share of indigenous parts is higher in our case.

Apart from that, it's clear to me that Turkey is on the brink of becoming a more sophisticated producer of defence products if the country plays its cards right. This is something I don't see in Poland for the foreseeable future. They lack the manpower and money for instance. Despite of that we simply have a broader base, more products, larger export figures, higher turnout etc.

In case of Turkey, we're using foreign designs as a springboard to homegrown designs. Your examples of Polish drones are all technologically less complex than the Anka drone. The helicopter production in Poland is a wellnown legacy of the Soviets, we already have ongoing naval projects that are technologically more advanced than anything Poland is producing etc. pp.

However, I'm not saying that Poland couldn't become a high tech supplier for certain products within a broader European industrial defence cooperation.

In the long term, Turkey surely will be better positioned than Poland.

 

[TheMightyBender]

Patents are one of the measures of such comparisons. (Kind of rough because a variant that can be patented in one country may not be allowed in another and sometimes patents that are granted don't seem to work.) By this yardstick, as of 2015 Turkey ranks between Bulgaria and Venezuela in number of patents granted: link.

Lol wut
By this yardstick Saudi Arabia ranks much higher than Turkey

 

[Solomon2]

Lol wut
By this yardstick Saudi Arabia ranks much higher than Turkey

KSA has granted more patents than Turkey since 2010. Possibly the effect of the Western-style research cities and universities KSA established a decade ago.

 

[kartal1]

Very nice, bro. I didn't know that was the case.

@kartal1 Mate, you know East European countries and their history. I would like to hear your opinion too. ( regarding Turkey being ahead of the East European countries in science & technology.)

Alright I cant talk about all the countries in EE but I can talk about Bulgaria (I suppose its the case with the most of EE countries under soviet control). Bulgaria before 1989 have been on a very high level in form of science and military industry. In 1948 the bulgarian government formed National Industrial Union "Metalhim" in which union there was atleast 6 factories working in different aspects in the military industry. In the years "Metalhim" have been in a lot of structures in Bulgaria like Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Heavy Industry etc. There have been small factories formed under the Ministry of Defense that have been related to repair of components related to aviation, repair of components related to radio-location equipment, factory related to telephone production, radio equipment and repair.
After 1970s the bulgarian military industry is entering period of high speed rise. The industry learned to repair and after a while to produce russian military products and equipment. For a period of more than 35 years before 1989 Bulgaria is getting from USSR technical license documents FREE for over 250 pieces of military equipment. Bulgaria is getting licenses also from GDR for optics and from Czechoslovakia for artillery elements its getting licenses from Poland to. In 1975 the factories manufacturing special electronics exit "Metalhim" and new factory have been formed under the Ministry of Defense the factories name is "Electron". "Electron" becomes one of the leading special electronic factories in the soviet camp. Bulgaria have been able to manufacture very wide aresnal of military equipment like almost all kind of firearms, artillery pieces, armored vehicles, rocket artillery, ammunition, artillery shells, ATGMs, heat seekers, SPAAGs, MANPADs etc. (I am to lazy to list them all) that are in the sovyet invertory. Normally the quality of the products was on very high level even if you ask a bulgarian about the bulgarian AKs he will tell you that the bulgarian AKs were the best in the world but he will tell you also "But what do we have now? Everything is gone." and he will start telling you how good there was in the times when Todor Zhivkov ruled the country. So the conclusion is that in EE there was very high level science and technology due to the USSR FREE technological transfer and licenses. People from EE had the opportunity to studi in the most elite USSR universities and then return home and serve the country with the learned from USSR schools. The same principle is valid for the security services and the armed forces as well. One of the brightest examples is Bulgaria. After the colapse of USSR the things changed a lot. The most of the countries in EE lost the most of the capabilities that were there under "USSR rule" but didnt gave up and continued to expand them. One of the examples is Poland. Now Poland have pretty nice military industry but there is examples like Bulgaria. Bulgaria from a level of one of the most frightening armies in Europe now have army that is hard to be called army. The most of the military factories are not working, destroyed or are working in completely different category. The bulgarian military export is mainly to rebels in Africa and the Middle East. The Bulgarian Science Academy is in state that its nearly frozen. So the conclusion of all this is that USSR like to give luxury things to its girlfriends but USSR also loves sado-mazo and after USSR leave you you are there with bankrupt with pieces of the luxury things, you are trying to connect the pieces but its not working.... you just stand there with a hurt in the *** and you are waiting for the old businessman uncle Sam or the good looking european orgy lovers to save you and to give you new toys but "All men are the same... they just want to use you".

 

[cabatli_53]

In 1980-90's, Turkish defensive science and technology activities had serious vision and planing problem so The development activities were mostly done with individual efforts of a few defence companies. Army was a big fan of USA and European hardwares so Industry had to work as a smee of Western contractors under some offset deals. The domestic projects were mostly generated from radios, command control software and artillery systems which was contributing to own Armed Forces around %18-20 in those years.

Today, Turkish defensive science and technology activities are totally connected into roadways and the institutes who is willing to join into a tender/project, must obey some obligations/rules/permissions in terms of smee share /R&D/secrecy/intellectual-property rights and industrial input/output activities. Planning/Roadway/complete product portfolio/subsystem expertise are what makes Turkish defence industry way better/stronger than Eastern European countries-planing/funding/roadway/concentrating over the deficiency/maturation. Today, For exm. We may predict the condition and technological level of Turkish defence industry for following 10 years thanks to SSM (Coordinator of Turkish defence projects/strategy design/development activities for industry) strategic planing pages and ongoing complete projects which is reached around 300 at present.

That's the league table of SSM analysts to put their current and future efforts into a group with countries having similar infrastructure. In accordance with analyse, Turkey's infrastructure (3-4 years ago) is around level-3 to level-4 group which seems ahead of Brazil like countries. The range of total ongoing defence projects carried out by Turkish institutes are quite large and deep in terms of big and strategic complete defence projects along with sub-component developments which is going to put Turkey into League-2 in a short time (It is stated clearly in official pages).

For exmp.
-TF-X stealth fighter project is a giant industrial revolution project with around planned 10000 engineer/technicians contribution in development/production period. No need to mention AA missiles, E/O systems, Mission computer/avionics/engine development/AESA radar projects following the paths of same project.

-Altay MBT is an industrial revolution project thanks to armour excellence center for reactive/composite/ceramic type armours to be applied for all type of vehicles. 1500hp Engine/ FCS / Akkor hard-kill project is also following the steps of Altay project.

-Milgem - Istanbul class frigate - TF-2000 destroyer - TF-100 multi-mission frigate - Milden submarine projects ! Another industrial revolution projects of Turkish naval industry. Long range radars/EW systems/Torpedo/anti-ship missile/CIWS/FCR/CMS/Railgun/Low/medium/long altitude Hisar based SAM projects, Mizrak based Temren missile projects, Gezgin land attack cruise missile projects...etc Rare states have capability of developing such big and complex naval projects.

-T-129 Atak thanks to Italian airframe know-how, later T-625 6t utility helicopter, new 3t utility helo, new 8t utility helo projects. Transmission/rotor/cockpit/EW and many ATGM projects called Mizrak family has followed baby steps of those helo projects.

-AESA/APAR based radar projects MAR (80km), Kalkan-2 (120+km), F-16 AESA, TF-X AESA, STR WLR(100+km), EIRS (600+km) Early Warning Radar, CAFRAD TF-2000 non-rotating radar complex... Those are highly strategic projects and their exportation are restricted with permissions of governments.

-Big NATO has just two long altitude SAM option (Aster and Patriot-THAAD is not export free for all states) for other NATO costumers. Turkey is the third state in NATO which is actively developing Low/Medium/Long Altitude SAM missiles domestically.

-NATO has 3-4 VWR and 3-4 BVR type of missile options but Turkish industry is going to test own developed VWR and BVR missiles in 2019.

-Turkey is actively charged to develop cruise missile for F-35 project. Turkish cruise missile will be offered to all F-35 costumers as a rival of Norway JSM.

-Turkey is among a few NATO state actively testing all long/medium/short range fire-forget/update ATGM in field.

-Turkey is among a few state revealed 122mm, 230mm, 300mm, 600mm precision guided artillery missile system.

-Turkey must be third NATO state planning (By 2020's) to use own combat management system called Genesis Advent, controlling own Multi-function/illumination/Fire control/Long range Early Warning radar complex + domestic surface to air missiles + CIWS + Atmaca Ship to ship missiles + Gezgin LACM on own designed 7000t destroyer after France and USA.

List is incredible large enough to take all my day time to tell What Turkish defence industry achieves in those days and I am not crazy to spend all my time to tell them.

but, In paralel to ongoing projects,

-Role model country walking similar paths/strategies for defence projects: S. Korea
-A country with similar infrastructure for some sectors (today): Maybe Sweeden or Norway in some aspects (?)
-By 2030, When many strategic projects materialized successfully: You will see a France in Anatolia

 

[Nike]

South Korean is a good role model for any Countries who had ambition to make their country self reliant in defense industry. Just starting to produce rip off of M113 variants APC in 70's as a start, some gun boat in 80's, now they can produce serious shit like Aegis capable destroyer, AIP submarines, LHD, MBT and even VLS along with various stuff of missiles.

 

[GOLDENEAGLE1]

I think turkey among european countries is now almost on par with italy but they have already reached their full potential while turkey just started devellopping

In 10 years turkey will reach the next level which is the bigger powers such as france UK etc

 

[TheBlackCoat]

Venezuela, Bolivia, Columbia, Argentina, Ecuador, Mexico

 

[GOLDENEAGLE1]

Venezuela, Bolivia, Columbia, Argentina, Ecuador, Mexico

When did they join the EU?

 

[TheBlackCoat]

When did they join the EU?

The title says western country not just EU member.

I have a Question: to which western country we can compare Turkey in science and technology?.

 

[Shajida Khan]

In 1980-90's, Turkish defensive science and technology activities had serious vision and planing problem so The development activities were mostly done with individual efforts of a few defence companies. Army was a big fan of USA and European hardwares so Industry had to work as a smee of Western contractors under some offset deals. The domestic projects were mostly generated from radios, command control software and artillery systems which was contributing to own Armed Forces around %18-20 in those years.

Today, Turkish defensive science and technology activities are totally connected into roadways and the institutes who is willing to join into a tender/project, must obey some obligations/rules/permissions in terms of smee share /R&D/secrecy/intellectual-property rights and industrial input/output activities. Planning/Roadway/complete product portfolio/subsystem expertise are what makes Turkish defence industry way better/stronger than Eastern European countries-planing/funding/roadway/concentrating over the deficiency/maturation. Today, For exm. We may predict the condition and technological level of Turkish defence industry for following 10 years thanks to SSM (Coordinator of Turkish defence projects/strategy design/development activities for industry) strategic planing pages and ongoing complete projects which is reached around 300 at present.

That's the league table of SSM analysts to put their current and future efforts into a group with countries having similar infrastructure. In accordance with analyse, Turkey's infrastructure (3-4 years ago) is around level-3 to level-4 group which seems ahead of Brazil like countries. The range of total ongoing defence projects carried out by Turkish institutes are quite large and deep in terms of big and strategic complete defence projects along with sub-component developments which is going to put Turkey into League-2 in a short time (It is stated clearly in official pages).

For exmp.
-TF-X stealth fighter project is a giant industrial revolution project with around planned 10000 engineer/technicians contribution in development/production period. No need to mention AA missiles, E/O systems, Mission computer/avionics/engine development/AESA radar projects following the paths of same project.

-Altay MBT is an industrial revolution project thanks to armour excellence center for reactive/composite/ceramic type armours to be applied for all type of vehicles. 1500hp Engine/ FCS / Akkor hard-kill project is also following the steps of Altay project.

-Milgem - Istanbul class frigate - TF-2000 destroyer - TF-100 multi-mission frigate - Milden submarine projects ! Another industrial revolution projects of Turkish naval industry. Long range radars/EW systems/Torpedo/anti-ship missile/CIWS/FCR/CMS/Railgun/Low/medium/long altitude Hisar based SAM projects, Mizrak based Temren missile projects, Gezgin land attack cruise missile projects...etc Rare states have capability of developing such big and complex naval projects.

-T-129 Atak thanks to Italian airframe know-how, later T-625 6t utility helicopter, new 3t utility helo, new 8t utility helo projects. Transmission/rotor/cockpit/EW and many ATGM projects called Mizrak family has followed baby steps of those helo projects.

-AESA/APAR based radar projects MAR (80km), Kalkan-2 (120+km), F-16 AESA, TF-X AESA, STR WLR(100+km), EIRS (600+km) Early Warning Radar, CAFRAD TF-2000 non-rotating radar complex... Those are highly strategic projects and their exportation are restricted with permissions of governments.

-Big NATO has just two long altitude SAM option (Aster and Patriot-THAAD is not export free for all states) for other NATO costumers. Turkey is the third state in NATO which is actively developing Low/Medium/Long Altitude SAM missiles domestically.

-NATO has 3-4 VWR and 3-4 BVR type of missile options but Turkish industry is going to test own developed VWR and BVR missiles in 2019.

-Turkey is actively charged to develop cruise missile for F-35 project. Turkish cruise missile will be offered to all F-35 costumers as a rival of Norway JSM.

-Turkey is among a few NATO state actively testing all long/medium/short range fire-forget/update ATGM in field.

-Turkey is among a few state revealed 122mm, 230mm, 300mm, 600mm precision guided artillery missile system.

-Turkey must be third NATO state planning (By 2020's) to use own combat management system called Genesis Advent, controlling own Multi-function/illumination/Fire control/Long range Early Warning radar complex + domestic surface to air missiles + CIWS + Atmaca Ship to ship missiles + Gezgin LACM on own designed 7000t destroyer after France and USA.

List is incredible large enough to take all my day time to tell What Turkish defence industry achieves in those days and I am not crazy to spend all my time to tell them.

but, In paralel to ongoing projects,

-Role model country walking similar paths/strategies for defence projects: S. Korea
-A country with similar infrastructure for some sectors (today): Maybe Sweeden or Norway in some aspects (?)
-By 2030, When many strategic projects materialized successfully: You will see a France in Anatolia

In Turkey, India is called 'Hindistan'? Thats a new thing for me

 

[rcrmj]

Netherland

Netherland is very advanced at precision engineering, actually one of the main players at this field alone with Germany, Switzerland and Japan. Turkey has zero market presence at this field

There is no Western country that is comparable to Turkey. They're either too rich or too small. However, in terms of economy, geography and climate some Europeans are comparing Turkey with Spain. To answer your question: We're ahead of Eastern Europe but decades behind Western Europe. I'd say we're somewhere between these two blocks technologically.

@Beast

Generally, the Netherlands are ahead of Turkey in almost every scientific field which is not very surprising. They're extremely rich and very good educated. We are maybe better off in some defence related issues but this is rather a new development.

some Eastern countries are quite advanced at tubo engine, optical, engineering, aerodynamic and chemistry fields, Turkey is still heavily relying on foreign patents and industrial tools.

 

[Saithan]

I don't think ppl think of South America when they talk about "western countries"

However despite the nice list provided I think Turkey is still behind European countries, but not compared to East European countries.

Production is cheaper in EE which is why many of the WE move production to EE. Production being moved from Denmark to Poland is because they can make the same factory to 1/5 of the cost, and labour is also cheap.

So yes, low cost and wages play a huge role in running factories and producing anything. I know, we got polish ppl doing "all" the construction work in Denmark, but not the part that requires brain.

EE might be going up now after they got into the EU, but it is apparent that many of the EE countries have difficulty living up to the EU standard, and the same goes for Turkey. EU needs to have several levels of membership if it wants to survive. Those nations who go 100% into EU and truly believe in it should be core members, everyone else should just be friends with benefits, and not part of the schengen. (imo)

The idea behind EU is good and decent, but if it doesn't adapt and change to defend core values it'll end up being washed out. Just look at the current situation, as soon as the EE face hardship they deviate strongly from the values EU stands for.

Anyway, until Turkey produces it's own engine to cars, tanks, ships, it won't be considered one of the bigger players. Buying Saab 9-3 blueprints should have yielded instant result, but imo the shi*face ministers are too busy bragging, than producing. 9-3 is a good car.

buying Saab, and maintaining production in Sweden and establishing production facility in Turkey would have been sufficient to learn to produce and develop. The swedes love Saab.

 

[flamer84]

May 26, 2017 | 09:00 GMT

Turkey Builds a Military-Industrial Complex to Match Its Ambitions
(Stratfor)

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Forecast Highlights

• The Turkish government is determined to further develop the country's indigenous defense industry.
• An increasingly capable and mature defense industry will help Ankara enhance its self-sufficiency, stimulate its economy and develop tighter relationships with foreign partners.
• Turkey's defense industry will remain a work in progress, however, as the country continues to depend on foreign technology and subsystems.

Turkish officials have been hinting for weeks that the country is on the cusp of finalizing export deals worth up to $2 billion, the largest contracts in the nation's history. The agreements, primarily for maritime systems, are with Saudi Arabia and another unspecified nation. Though Turkey's defense exports doubled from 2011 to 2016, total deals in the industry remained relatively low at $1.68 billion last year — accounting for less than 1 percent of global arms exports. The rumored upcoming sales highlight not only Turkey's determination to boost its defense exports, but also Ankara's ambition to greatly expand its indigenous defense industry.
Why Having an Arms Industry Matters
There are three main reasons Turkey is expanding this particular sector. The first is to save money and stimulate economic growth. Turkey maintains the second-largest military force in NATO, which requires considerable investment in equipment. Ankara plans to pump even more resources into its military as it accelerates a modernization drive that will phase out and replace obsolescent Cold War-era equipment. Successfully mobilizing Turkey's indigenous defense industry to produce materiel for the Turkish armed forces would not only alleviate the need to spend copious funds on foreign equipment and weaponry, but also help to grow the domestic industrial sector and the economy at large.

Second, Turkey hopes to enhance its self-sufficiency and independence. Ankara has historically relied on its key NATO partners — especially the United States and Germany — for weaponry, though its attempts to make purchases have been occasionally rebuffed. In December 2014, the U.S. Congress prevented the transfer of two Oliver Hazard Perry-class guided missile frigates to Turkey, citing Ankara's hostile stance toward Israel and its opposition to natural gas exploration by American companies near Cyprus. Even more important are the congressional blocks imposed on the sale of drone technology to Turkey, which caused Ankara to move expeditiously toward developing its own drone technology from 2008 onward. Germany has also moved to reject Turkish arms requests in recent years, citing human rights concerns. Though eight of these requests were turned down between 2010 and 2015, at least 11 have been refused since November 2016. As a result, reducing the country's dependence on arms imports has become critically important for Ankara. In fact, its goal is to achieve full self-sufficiency by 2023.



Finally, Turkey seeks to strengthen its own arms exports. Beyond the obvious economic benefits, arms sales are a key way in which Ankara can develop close and long-lasting relationships with customers, with an expectation of better relations overall. For instance, Turkey has worked to enhance its ties with Gulf Cooperation Council countries, including Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and it is no surprise that these states are primary targets for Ankara's arms export ambitions as well.
The Drive for Development
Bolstering Turkey's local arms trade is President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's established passion — something he hopes will accelerate the national defense industry, too. Constitutional reforms passed in Turkey's April 2016 referendum greatly increased Erdogan's oversight and control of defense procurement. The presidency, for instance, now oversees the Defense Industry Executive Committee, which is the ultimate arbiter of defense procurement projects. These statutory changes will undoubtedly drive Turkey's aspirations in the armaments sector forward.

The Turkish government wants to establish a respectable industry based around a wide array of defense projects — some of which Erdogan has a keen interest in — from maritime vessels to army vehicles to aerospace projects. In the naval sphere, Turkish defense industries including Istanbul Shipyard and Golcuk Naval Shipyard are close to securing warship and submarine contracts worth billions of dollars with countries such as Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia. Meanwhile, Turkish defense electronics producer Aselsan already exports its products to more than 60 countries globally. Nurol Machinery, a growing Turkish armored vehicle producer, experienced a twentyfold rise in sales over a four-year span and has begun to sell its armored vehicles on the export market. These are just some of the Turkish defense companies, big and small, that are increasing their production portfolios as they take advantage of the government's effort to enhance the Turkish defense industry.

Even with the increase in arms export orders, however, the largest market by far for Turkish defense companies is the Turkish government. The Turkish military not only is adding capabilities it never had before, but is also working to replace large stocks of aging Cold War-era equipment across its force structure. For instance, Sedef Shipbuilding is currently building Turkey's first amphibious assault ship for the Turkish navy, a vessel that will eventually form the foundation of a Turkish aircraft carrier program. Turkish Aerospace Industries is also spearheading efforts to develop indigenous drones, such as the Anka UAV, for the military after previous efforts to import the technology failed. When it comes to replacement products for aging Turkish equipment, flagship programs include the Altay main battle tank, developed by Turkish defense company Otokar, as well as the T129 attack helicopter produced by Turkish Aerospace Industries in partnership with Anglo-Italian company AgustaWestland. As is the case with the T129 helicopter, Turkish defense companies have sought to strategically partner with foreign firms in the development of numerous weapons programs to compensate for continued deficiencies in their technological know-how.

Turkey has come a long way in the development of an indigenous defense industry, a core part of its ambition to strengthen its military and bolster its regional interests. Since 2002, the rate at which Turkey's defense industry has met Ankara's procurement requirements has risen from 24 to 64 percent and is still climbing. Yet while these numbers are indeed impressive, they are also somewhat misleading. What Turkey labels as indigenous programs are more often than not still heavily linked to foreign partnerships and almost invariably include imported subsystems. So while the continued rise of the Turkish defense industry is impressive at face value, the reality is that progress will remain uneven, and Ankara will not be able to forgo its dependence on critical foreign systems anytime soon.
https://worldview.stratfor.com/arti...itary-industrial-complex-match-its-ambitions?

When comparing with South Korea people must remember that Korea first built an impressive horizontal civilian industry ,with the likes of Samsung,Daewoo,etc,which spurred it's military advances. Turkey does not possess such industry.

 

[GOLDENEAGLE1]

The title says western country not just EU member.

I have a Question: to which western country we can compare Turkey in science and technology?.

Didn't know they were considered western countries