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How to counter tactical nukes?

Probably the best article concerning practical & realistic Indian response to Pakistani TNWs ever, and all of it ruined by 8-page long troll posts.

@PARIKRAMA , you assumption of Option X being the best is unlikely because the realization of extinction will never "dawn" upon Pakistani high command. The threat of massive counter-value targeting won't deter Pakistan, because the probability of Pakistani strategic assets surviving a first strike is actually pretty high owing to their high degree of mobility.
MAD will ensue after all.

The real threat from Pakistan emanates from the Babur cruise missile with Terrain hugging features for use of strategic warheads. I would assume India is working on specific modules regarding their AWACS in countering even this. I can explain how these methods work to some degree if anyone is interested.
Why don't ballistic missiles pose a greater threat? Aren't they more robust and unstoppable? And how will India counter Pakistani cruise missiles?

Even US not possessed the technology to destroy all the nuclear weapons of Pakistan.
US actually does posses that technology and capability.
 
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US actually does posses that technology and capability.
Sir i beg my pardon to differ you. I forget the interview where Dr. Samar was asked the same question and he replied it is not possible for any country to destroy other country's all nuclear weapons, he said special shielding used to protect warheads from satellite scanning.
 
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Sir i beg my pardon to differ you. I forget the interview where Dr. Samar was asked the same question and he replied it is not possible for any country to destroy other country's all nuclear weapons, he said special shielding used to protect warheads from satellite scanning.
He was referring to India. US is not any country, not only do they know almost everything about our strategic assets, they have the means to effectively execute a decapitation strike against Pakistan (if it ever came down to that). The only way any warhead survives would be to preemptively launch it against US bases in Afghanistan/Middle East.
 
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Why don't ballistic missiles pose a greater threat? Aren't they more robust and unstoppable? And how will India counter Pakistani cruise missiles?

Ballistic missiles are picked up by ground radars quite easily given their trajectories. Interception through various firing solutions then depends on the system you have. Some have onboard radars and modules with ECCM. Take the S-300+ and S-400 systems....or the Israeli Iron Dome....all quite effective against various classes of BM's.

Cruise missiles of course seek to evade radar detection all together by hugging the ground. This is very effective against ground radar systems which beyond a distance and depending on terrain lose their pick up resolution among the ground noise.

The way around this is AWACs like I mentioned before. India would have to develop various algorithms for its Phalcon and DRDO based AWACS that filter out ground noise and are able to track cruise missile profile objects and relay this information to ground based interceptors. The terrain between India and Pakistan is quite flat so this should not require a tremendous scanner calculation capability to accomplish, especially if India optimizes for its environment. It would be similar to the sensor optimization algorithms that I worked on for a SAR satellite many years back....with movement comes an inherent advantage in tracking with radar, even among noise.

This would theoretically be the way to accomplish it, no idea what India has done on this front in reality, though one would assume with the capability of the Phalcon, something would have been started. It is quite long term as well given the AWACs resources, backed up with numerous other input sources + tracking calculation and fire management required to create a defensive barrier to cruise missiles.....but I am sure India would have started on initial programs to test the basic capabilities of the units, of which much more will become a larger network later in future.
 
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He was referring to India. US is not any country, not only do they know almost everything about our strategic assets, they have the means to effectively execute a decapitation strike against Pakistan (if it ever came down to that). The only way any warhead survives would be to preemptively launch it against US bases in Afghanistan/Middle East.

Protections[edit]
In May 2009, during the anniversary of Pakistan's first nuclear weapons test, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharifclaimed that Pakistan's nuclear security is the strongest in the world.[83] According to Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan'snuclear safety program and nuclear security program is the strongest program in the world and there is no such capability in any other country for radical elements to steal or possess nuclear weapons.[84]

It was confirmed that Pakistan has built Soviet-style road-mobile missiles, state-of-the-art air defences around strategic sites, and other concealment measures. In 1998, Pakistan had 'at least six secret locations' and since then it is believed Pakistan may have many more such secret sites. In 2008, the United States admitted that it did not know where all of Pakistan's nuclear sites are located. Pakistani defence officials have continued to rebuff and deflect American requests for more details about the location and security of the country's nuclear sites.[135]
Pakistan and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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You really think the US would come out and outright say what contingency plan it has for Pakistan's nuclear weapons (should they seek to go for outright forced disarmament) and what level of confidence they have in such an operation?

Even taking out the majority of the nukes are enough for a large success for the US, since Pakistan's MAD with India is effectively crippled....and taking out just 1 or 2 indian cities in return for total annihilation may not be something they are willing to indulge in.
 
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Ballistic missiles are picked up by ground radars quite easily given their trajectories. Interception through various firing solutions then depends on the system you have. Some have onboard radars and modules with ECCM. Take the S-300+ and S-400 systems....or the Israeli Iron Dome....all quite effective against various classes of BM's.

Cruise missiles of course seek to evade radar detection all together by hugging the ground. This is very effective against ground radar systems which beyond a distance and depending on terrain lose their pick up resolution among the ground noise.

The way around this is AWACs like I mentioned before. India would have to develop various algorithms for its Phalcon and DRDO based AWACS that filter out ground noise and are able to track cruise missile profile objects and relay this information to ground based interceptors. The terrain between India and Pakistan is quite flat so this should not require a tremendous scanner calculation capability to accomplish, especially if India optimizes for its environment. It would be similar to the sensor optimization algorithms that I worked on for a SAR satellite many years back....with movement comes an inherent advantage in tracking with radar, even among noise.

This would theoretically be the way to accomplish it, no idea what India has done on this front in reality, though one would assume with the capability of the Phalcon, something would have been started. It is quite long term as well given the AWACs resources, backed up with numerous other input sources + tracking calculation and fire management required to create a defensive barrier to cruise missiles.....but I am sure India would have started on initial programs to test the basic capabilities of the units, of which much more will become a larger network later in future.

Detection is one thing, interception is a whole other ball-game, thats why I said "unstoppable". S-300 is only around Delhi & Chandigarh (if not retired already) and effective against <300km range missiles, and S-400 hasn't even be signed yet. So as of now, the deployed ballistic missiles pose a greater threat than the cruise missiles in production.

I think that SHORADs stand a better chance at detecting and intercepting cruise missiles. AWACs may be more effective, but India is yet to deploy them in numbers large enough. A lot of net-centric warfare capability will be needed to effectively counter cruise missiles.
 
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@war&peace
@Tipu7
low yield tiny tactic nukes.
That even on short range missiles.
A very low proportion of Indian Population leaves near border.
Simply no threat to us.
:lol:
And our single high yield city busting nuke.
Their game over. :)
But they are still dreaming winning war on tactical nukes.
:rofl::rofl:

Your naive approach is not even worth replying.
Do read a bit about Nasr and it's usage also about it's purpose .....
 
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Protections[edit]
In May 2009, during the anniversary of Pakistan's first nuclear weapons test, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharifclaimed that Pakistan's nuclear security is the strongest in the world.[83] According to Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan'snuclear safety program and nuclear security program is the strongest program in the world and there is no such capability in any other country for radical elements to steal or possess nuclear weapons.[84]

It was confirmed that Pakistan has built Soviet-style road-mobile missiles, state-of-the-art air defences around strategic sites, and other concealment measures. In 1998, Pakistan had 'at least six secret locations' and since then it is believed Pakistan may have many more such secret sites. In 2008, the United States admitted that it did not know where all of Pakistan's nuclear sites are located. Pakistani defence officials have continued to rebuff and deflect American requests for more details about the location and security of the country's nuclear sites.[135]
Pakistan and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I didn't refer to stealing or taking possession of Pakistani strategic assets by US forces. That, of course is too difficult in the presence of SPD forces.
The "nuclear" sites are too damn big to hide, there is nothing "secret" about them. Anyone with access to Google Earth can effectively spot them with a bit of time and patience. The thing which might be unknown to the Americans is the amount of warheads stored at a specific location.
 
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Detection is one thing, interception is a whole other ball-game, thats why I said "unstoppable". S-300 is only around Delhi & Chandigarh (if not retired already) and effective against <300km range missiles, and S-400 hasn't even be signed yet. So as of now, the deployed ballistic missiles pose a greater threat than the cruise missiles in production.

I think that SHORADs stand a better chance at detecting and intercepting cruise missiles. AWACs may be more effective, but India is yet to deploy them in numbers large enough. A lot of net-centric warfare capability will be needed to effectively counter cruise missiles.

Yah I am talking in a future (5 - 10 years from now and more) perspective. The arms race will be heating up significantly around that period especially as Indian economy grows.

SHORADS can definitely provide the interception component with a strong enough C4I infrastructure...my AWACs based analysis was purely for the detection of said cruise missiles. The whole system will have to be quite multi-layered...and again I am talking about well into the future, not the precise current situation as it stands.

SHORAD radar detection is again encumbered by being on the ground. A ground hugging cruise missile may well be able to bypass it in most situations.
 
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How should India respond to Pakistan’s tactical nuclear weapons? This question has regained importance in the light of Pakistan’s foreign secretary Aizaz Chaudhry’s recent remarks justifying tactical nuclear weapons as a means to deter India from launching a conventional war. In the realm of nuclear warfare, one has to find real answers to hypothetical questions, else the questions may no longer remain hypothetical.

India’s current nuclear doctrine—Option X, let’s say—professes a “massive” nuclear strike “to inflict unacceptable damage” in response to any kind of nuclear attack—high-yield or low-yield. An Option Y is often proposed, which advocates “proportionate” response in case of low-yield attacks by tactical nuclear weapons. Before comparing the utility of both the options, let us first decide what Indian nuclear doctrine should aim for. A sound Indian nuclear doctrine should (a) minimize the chances of Pakistan using tactical nukes (Aim 1), and (b)prevent escalation to strategic nuclear weapons which bring about mutually unacceptable damage or mutually assured destruction (Aim 2). In other words, India should aim to expand the space for a conventional warfare where it holds a definitive edge over Pakistan.

The achievement of Aim 1 depends on the product of two factors—the scale of the doctrinal response and the credibility of delivering that response. A very low score on either may bring down the probability of achieving this aim considerably. The achievement of Aim 2 depends on the space for escalation left after fulfilling the doctrinal response. The more the space for escalation left, the greater is the opportunity for the two parties to come to a truce before the use of strategic nuclear weapons.




Click here for enlarge



How do the two options—X and Y—fare in achieving Aim 1 and 2? While the scale of response in Option X is high, it suffers from a very low credibility. One, India has not shown enough stomach for a tough response in the past, be it after the attack on Parliament in 2001 or after the Mumbai attacks in 2008. Two, it is unlikely that India will undertake the high-risk option of massive retaliation in response to a battlefield nuke resulting in few Indian casualties. Therefore, the probability of Option X achieving Aim 1 is low.

Option X effectively forecloses de-escalation opportunities as a massive nuclear attack by India will be responded to in kind by Pakistan. Therefore, Option X does not achieve Aim 2 either. As far as Option Y is concerned, its credibility is high, but scale—being proportionate to the scale of a low-yield attack—is low. Thus Option Y has a low to moderate chance of achieving Aim 1. Option Y leaves enough space for escalation and, therefore, for striking a truce. Thus its probability of achieving Aim 2 is high. Overall, Y seems to be a lot better option than X, the latter being—just a reminder—part of the current Indian doctrine.

A new option—Option Z—has been introduced in a recent paper Pakistan’s Tactical Nuclear Weapons: Deconstructing India’s Doctrinal Response by Arka Biswas. He proposes counter-force targeting, such as an attack on the enemy army’s headquarters, as opposed to counter-value targeting, such as bombing a city, in response to Pakistan using tactical nukes. The scale of such a response would be between that of a proportionate and a massively disproportionate response.

In order to distinguish it from a proportionate response using counter-force targeting, India should clearly specify, argues Biswas, “the category of counter-force targets, like military headquarters, strategic military and nuclear assets, nuclear command, control, and communications centres and so on”.

The scale of response in Option Z is somewhere between that of Option X and Option Y. The credibility is moderate and not high because clear targeting helps Pakistan beef up security accordingly. The best example is to recall how India’s plan of attacking the nuclear facility at Kahuta in the 1980s—once leaked—failed to materialize as Pakistan boosted its air defences around the nuclear plant. Therefore, the probability of Option Z achieving Aim 1 is moderate. This option leaves adequate escalation space, but less than that left by Option Y. And so, its probability of achieving Aim 2 is also moderate.

Now the big question: which among the three options is best for India? It is clear that the incumbent option should be altered to either proportionate response or a “proportionate plus” response using counter-force targeting as suggested by Biswas. Of course, the assumption is that these three are the only options. One may devise more options and use this framework to evaluate their utilities as well. The two other main assumptions behind my framework are (a) India’s credibility to fulfil its doctrinal response is hampered not by inadequacy of power or ill-preparedness but by intent alone, and (b) Pakistan’s nuclear weapons including tactical ones are credible.

The choice between options Y and Z depends on the weightage we assign to Aim 1 and Aim 2. The probability of achieving Aim 1 is low or moderate across the options (see the table) and hence one can argue that India should focus on achieving Aim 2. This reasoning would lead us to select proportionate response as the right choice for India. Conversely, one can argue that India should try to achieve Aim 1 because (a) it helps (but does not guarantee) in achieving Aim 2, and (b) even Pakistan would be trying to achieve the same Aim 2 (Pakistan’s Aim 1 is different: it is to deter a conventional war while providing a nuclear cover to sub-conventional warfare). In that case, India should select Biswas’s suggestion. Take your pick; no choice is perfect.


Link: How to counter tactical nukes? - Livemint
Why bother... Pakistanis have themselves stated that these so called tactical nukes will only be used on Indian forces if India army enters their territory...that means that Pakistanis are willing to bomb their own land... these tactical nukes have a limited strike range... unlike Medium and long range Nukes... and their impact will also be limited to few KM inside Pakistani territory...I say let them go ahead and use these toys.. bomb their mother land and make it inhabitable for their future generations.
 
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The thing which might be unknown to the Americans is the amount of warheads stored at a specific location
Yes when they don't know exactly where are our warheads how can be they so sure to attack is few survive the attack then ? can they take that risk ?
 
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Yes when they don't know exactly where are our warheads how can be they so sure to attack is few survive the attack then ? can they take that risk ?

Answers to such questions are...how shall we say.....well above your pay grade...

Lets just say USAF and USN if they really want to, have a lot of ordinance and delivery platforms available on multiple coordinated strike vectors....not to mention what other types of resources they might bring to bear.

How much they can get once the decision has been made...is something no one can say for sure. But it will be quite a large amount I would bet.

They will be declaring war on Pakistan as a result and know that some cities in India will get levelled potentially.

So you can imagine the situation that would have to exist for this to happen (or even for the US to contemplate it).
 
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Yes when they don't know exactly where are our warheads how can be they so sure to attack is few survive the attack then ? can they take that risk ?
Sarkaar, they know EVERY location. So if they indiscriminately take all of them out, there will be nothing left.
What I meant was that they might not know whether there are 10 or 20 warheads at facility XYZ at all times, but they do know where facility XYZ is. In fact US military maintains a quite accurate estimate (not published) of our warheads, give or take 5-10 warheads.
 
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Waoo and who will tell you all the info ? only the dumbest can think like that even US not possessed the technology / courage to destroy all the nuclear weapons of Pakistan.
Why would US attack Pakistani strategic assets without provocation?

Anyways, US have full knowledge of strategic assets of all nations in the world. Do not be naive.

Protections[edit]
In May 2009, during the anniversary of Pakistan's first nuclear weapons test, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharifclaimed that Pakistan's nuclear security is the strongest in the world.[83] According to Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan'snuclear safety program and nuclear security program is the strongest program in the world and there is no such capability in any other country for radical elements to steal or possess nuclear weapons.[84]

It was confirmed that Pakistan has built Soviet-style road-mobile missiles, state-of-the-art air defences around strategic sites, and other concealment measures. In 1998, Pakistan had 'at least six secret locations' and since then it is believed Pakistan may have many more such secret sites. In 2008, the United States admitted that it did not know where all of Pakistan's nuclear sites are located. Pakistani defence officials have continued to rebuff and deflect American requests for more details about the location and security of the country's nuclear sites.[135]
Pakistan and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You think that our Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan is an authority on US nuclear primacy? Don't be naive.

US have full knowledge of location of even Russian and Chinese strategic assets. US have marked both suspected and confirmed sites for target, should the need arise. Pakistan isn't even a threat to them.
 
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