What's new

how much of Urdu is Sanskrit based and persian based?

Even the fact that urdu is originated from present day central India doesn't make you Indian..You are british/Pakistani..Dont be so insecure.

Looking at how many indians open threads trying to link our culinary,linguistic and cultural heritage to middle india....its not me who is insrcure,its you lot who couldnt accept our freedom even after 65 years and still longing for us..
Get over it...
 
@Johnasad, kindly listen some poems by Haribansh rai bacchan.It might change ur view.
 
@Johnasad, kindly listen some poems by Haribansh rai bacchan.It might change ur view.

Well all i tried to say was that Urdu when spoken in traditional way is a very polite and beautiful sounding language-
but when an indian speaks Hindi- it sounds like ganged raped- broken all bones version of Urdu-

and i will listen to Haribansh poems-
 
Again Suraj is fine Urdu - Sanskritized Hindi would be Surya or Moon would be Shashi.

Hindi has many synonyms for it dosent mean chand is Urdu word, similarly "surya" is sanskrit word derived as it is in hindi while "suraj" is another synonym for surya in hindi. In case of moon, All words are derived from sanskrit word "Chandra" be it, chand, chandrama or chandra. India's space mission's name is "chandrayaan" which is completely a sanskrit name

Shashi is moon light.
 
Indian songs are pure urdu songs- except some bazaro item songs which can be classified as hindi-

Urdu is a shaista zuban- hindi is abay- tere to- tere ma k- band baja di- fato- kuch tofani kertay hein bla and vulgar gangster sh!t-

kripya kar k ek sabhya bhartiya se hindi ki shiksha prapt kare, aapko gyaat hoga ki jo dhaarda aapne hindi k prati bana rakhi hai wah swatah hi ant ho jayegi...... read some good hindi poets like suryakant tripathi niraala, ramdhari singh dinkar, pant and harivansh rai bachhan ur thoughts will change
 
First, it is nice but wrong in certain aspects.

Second, cutting off funds from Sanskrit education will lead to a situation where we will have to import teachers and professors of Sanskrit. That day is not as far enough away as we imagine.



Nicely and precisely put.

import - well i will beg to differ on that but yes sooner or later the way things are going sanskrit will be just sung during prayers.... few relatives of mine got into indian civil services taking sanskrit as a subject.... and u wont believe they can talk in sanskrit and they tell us how sanskrit was once a very scoring subject in civil services.... but things have changed.... and changing fast
 
Urdu is language of extremist , it's originated from mixed culture and not sophisticated , it's like bastard child.

Hindi, Sanskrit are very sophisticated and ancient heritage language language of knowledge and other is language of barbarian.

Sorry, but respectfully disagree with you. I don't come from Hindi speaking belt yet find Urdu equally sweet.
 
Disagreeing with them, with respect or with disrespect, is all the same. Such types will keep making remarks to set people's teeth on edge.
 
<sigh>

The original Procrustean logic.


tch ... common ancestor language is purely a conjecture.

as rgds your 2nd point, panini was not the person who invented sanskrit. distance between avestan & vedic sanskrit was similar to that between braj bhasha and khadi boli say. minor variations.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

for others - nice recent article.

The Lost River

by Michael Danino

The now dried up Saraswati river holds the key to many riddles of ancient Indian history &#8212; from the fate of the Harappans to the identity of the Vedic people. A convergence of archaeological, geological and climatic studies may soon provide us some answers

the-lost-river.gif


The riddle of the Saraswati river never goes long out of public view. The fascination the lost river has exerted on Indian minds is understandable: Praised in the Rig Veda&#8217;s hymns as a &#8220;mighty&#8221; river flowing &#8220;from the mountain to the sea&#8221; somewhere between the Yamuna and the Sutlej, it is reported a few centuries later by the Brahmanas (commentaries on the Vedas) as disappearing in the desert at a point called Vinashana, which was then a highly revered pilgrimage site. The Mahabharata, whose great war is waged in the region of Kurukshetra watered by the Saraswati and its tributaries, paints a similar picture, adding some details about the broken-up westward course of the river all the way to Prabhasa on the Arabian Sea. The river went on dwindling down, eventually becoming &#8216;mythical&#8217;, finally relocated at the confluence between Ganga and Yamuna as an &#8216;invisible&#8217; river &#8212; a convenient device to remember it.

A modern myth is that satellite imagery &#8216;rediscovered&#8217; the river in the 1970s. Actually, it only confirmed what had been known for over two centuries: As early as in 1760, a map from The Library Atlas published by Bryce, Collier & Schmitz showed the Saraswati (spelt &#8216;Soorsuty&#8217;) joining the Ghaggar (&#8216;Guggur&#8217;) in Punjab; indeed, even today a small stream called &#8216;Sarsuti&#8217; seasonally flows there. In 1778, James Rennell, a noted English geographer and cartographer, published a Map of Hindoostan or the Mogul Empire with similar details. In the early 19th century, several topographers surveyed the bed of the Ghaggar, a seasonal river that flows down from the Shivalik hills, and found it much too wide for the paltry waters it carried during monsoons; the first scholar to propose that the Ghaggar-Saraswati combine was the relic of the Vedic Saraswati was the French geographer Louis Vivien de Saint-Martin, who authored in 1855 a massive Geography of India&#8217;s North-West According to the Vedic Hymns. Subsequently, nearly all Indologists, from Max Müller to Monier-Williams or Macdonell (and later Louis Renou) accepted this thesis. Geologists such as RD Oldham (1886) joined in, followed by geographers such as the Indian Shamsul Islam Siddiqi (1944) or the German Herbert Wilhelmy (1969).

The Indus Civilisation

The story of the Saraswati&#8217;s rediscovery would thus have ended long ago if archaeology had not sprung a major surprise by redefining its role in antiquity. In the 1920s, cities of the Bronze Age like Mohenjodaro and Harappa came to light; initial findings were limited to the Indus Valley and Baluchistan, but in 1941, the intrepid explorer Sanskritist Marc Aurel Stein conducted an expedition in the then Bahawalpur State &#8212; today&#8217;s Cholistan, a very arid region of Pakistan which is technically part of the Thar desert. The Ghaggar&#8217;s dry bed continues there under the name of &#8216;Hakra&#8217;, and had long been known to be dotted with numerous ruined settlements. Stein&#8217;s contribution, encapsulated in his paper titled &#8216;A Survey of Ancient Sites along the Lost Saraswati River&#8217;, was to show that some of those sites went back to Harappan times. So the Saraswati, too, had nurtured the &#8216;Indus civilisation&#8217;, which prompted a few archaeologists to propose the broader term of &#8216;Indus-Saraswati civilisation&#8217;.

Indeed, decades of further explorations both in India and Pakistan have established that the Saraswati basin was home to about 360 sites of the Mature Harappan Phase (the urban phase that saw cities thrive, from about 2600 to 1900 BCE). This includes settlements such as Bhirrana, Rakhigarhi, Kunal or Banawali (all in Haryana), Kalibangan (Rajasthan) or Ganweriwala (Cholistan) &#8212; altogether, almost a third of all known urban Harappan sites. (Gujarat was also host to over 300 of them, another indication that the term &#8216;Indus civilisation&#8217; is something of a misnomer.)

Again, that the Ghaggar-Hakra was the Saraswati&#8217;s relic was accepted by most archaeologists, including Mortimer Wheeler, Raymond Allchin (both from Britain), Gregory Possehl, JM Kenoyer (both from the US), Jean-Marie Casal (France), AH Dani (Pakistan), BB Lal, SP Gupta, VN Misra or Dilip Chakrabarti (India).

The Aryan Issue

Despite the broad consensus, scholars such as Romila Thapar, Irfan Habib and the late RS Sharma started questioning this identification in the 1980s. What prompted this rather late reaction? It was a new development: A study of the evolution of the pattern of Harappan settlements in the Saraswati basin now revealed that in its central part &#8212; roughly southwest Haryana, southern Punjab and northern Rajasthan &#8212; most or all Harappan sites were abandoned sometime around 1900 BCE, a period coinciding with the end of the urban phase of the Indus civilisation. Clearly, the river system collapsed &#8212; which archaeologists now saw as a factor contributing to the end of the brilliant Indus civilisation.

Why was this a problem? We must remember that the Saraswati is lavishly praised both as a river and a Goddess in the Rig Veda, a collection of hymns which mainstream Indology says was composed by Indo-Aryans shortly after their migration to India around 1500 BCE. However, by that time, the Saraswati had been reduced to a minor seasonal stream: How could the said Aryans praise it as a &#8216;mighty river&#8217;, the &#8216;best of rivers&#8217;, &#8216;mother of waters&#8217;, etc? There is a chronological impossibility. Hence, the objectors asserted, the Ghaggar-Hakra was not, after all, the Saraswati extolled in the Rig Veda. While some (Rajesh Kochhar) tried to relocate the river in Afghanistan, others (Irfan Habib) decided that the Saraswati was not a particular river but &#8220;the river in the abstract, the River Goddess&#8221;; but both theses ran against the Rig Veda&#8217;s own testimony that the river flowed between the Yamuna and the Sutlej.

However, what should have remained a scholarly issue now turned into an ideological and often acrimonious battle: On the one hand, those who stuck to the identity between the Saraswati and the Ghaggar-Hakra concluded that the composers of the Rig Veda must have lived in the region during the third millennium BCE at the latest &#8212; but as the only settlements known of that period were Harappan ones, they often held that the Harappans were part of the Vedic people; cultural evidence such as a Harappan swastika, yogic postures, figurines in namaste and more was pressed into service to bridge the Harappan and the Vedic worlds. On the other hand, scholars who continued to swear by an Aryan immigration in the mid-second millennium BCE, and therefore a pre-Vedic Harappan civilisation, accused the former of &#8216;chauvinism&#8217;, &#8216;jingoism&#8217; or worse, conveniently forgetting that dozens of Western scholars had, for a century-and-a-half, accepted the same location for the Saraswati river.


Read the rest at The Lost River
 
Looking at how many indians open threads trying to link our culinary,linguistic and cultural heritage to middle india....its not me who is insrcure,its you lot who couldnt accept our freedom even after 65 years and still longing for us..
Get over it...

Again dude...Does your freedom become any lesser freedom because of that fact that urdu originated in central india..?We are just stating the fact..While you guys are hiding facts about things in your culture relating to modern india because of the insecure feeling that it somehow "make you indian"..
Heres your post:

Same way,having sanskirt words in urdu,does not make us Indian.

No indian said that it'll make you indian..Even the fact that urdu originated in central India..You are still Pakistani.
 
Main stream Urdu is more sansikrat based while Adabi Urdu is persianized
 
More tendentious journalism seeking to revise history. What does this thesis of the Saraswati prove? That the so-called Aryans were contemporaneous with the Indus Valley Civilisation, that the references to the Saraswati in the Rg Veda were references to the mature and strong river of an age long before 1900 BC? Leaving aside the sleight of hand of converting the rough end of the Ghaggra river system to 1300 BC, not to 1900 BC, it is not clear what all this sound and fury, signifying nothing, is supposed to indicate. Is it that the supposed discovery of a greater time-overlap than usually allowed for is the clue that the IVC was a civilisation and a culture established by none other than the composers of the Vedas?

How clumsy can this contriving get? presumably the next argument will be that then the date of the earliest composition of the Vedas should be pushed back to 400 or 500 years earlier, meaning that the composition dates now look like 2000 BC or even earlier, say, 2500 BC. So, if the Aryan speaking composers of the Rg Veda knew of the Saraswati which flourished around 2500 BC, they must have been in the vicinity around 2500 BC themselves. And what would that prove? That they initiated and grew that civilisation? How does that follow? At best, it might mean that the clearly agricultural and rural Aryan speakers were marginal operators in the fringe lands of the IVC for a couple of centuries more than we might have thought otherwise. It still proves nothing. Contemporary existence, particularly in the thickly wooded parts of the Punjab which are featured prominently in the Rg Veda as their own, need not have inferred a cause and effect relationship. The Germans existed next to the Roman Empire for centuries, and neither bothered much with the other.

I think that this entire futile ploy of looking for a dried up river, to prove that this was a token of a much older contact between the two cultures, and that therefore there is an argument to link the Indo-Aryan cowherds to the sophisticated, scrupulously clean and commercial princes of the IVC is totally out of place.
 
Back
Top Bottom