How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

[Capt.Popeye]

Sir we didn't have BVRs. Try sending the migs now, i'd be selling their pieces for 200 rupees a kilo at chacha ghulam bux's scrap shop.

That seems to be an "over-simplistic" statement goming from some motley Farmer John aka Ghulam Chacha....

The Luftwaffe flew East German MiG-29s against the F-16s. Which were vintage MiG-29s. Their views follow:

But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft’s superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’. We didn’t operate kill removal (forcing ‘killed’ aircraft to leave the fight) since they’d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!
"They might not like it, but with a 28deg/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16's 26deg) we can out-turn them. Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the ‘Archer’ which can reliably lock on to targets 45degoff-boresight.
"I should stress that I’m talking about our Luftwaffe MiG-29s, which are early aircraft. They also removed the Laszlo data link and the SRO IFF before the aircraft were handed over to us, so in some respects we’re less capable than other contemporary MiG-29s. From what we hear the latest variants are almost a different aircraft. I’d like to see our aircraft get some of the updates being offered by MiG-MAPO. The more powerful engines, better radar, a new navigation system, a data link and an inflight refuelling probe. If we got the new ‘Alamo-C’ that would also be an improvement - even a two nautical mile boost in range is still ten more seconds to shoot someone else! We won’t get many of those improvements, though we are getting a new IFF manually selectable radio channels, and improvements to the navigation system, including the integration of GPS. Most of our aircraft will be able to carry two underwing fuel tanks, which will also help."

That says a lot about the MiG-29's "dog-fighting" abilities.

 

[sancho]

Moreover Mig29K is a dedicated carrier-based fighter with foldable wings. Mig 35 isn't what the Navy was looking for.

Actually the Mig 29K is 90% of the Mig 35. It already has the same engines, without TVNs, the AESA radar is tested on K version and is a derivat of the Zhuk ME and most parts of the airframe (except of the planned wings) would be the same anyway. So it's not like there would be a huge difference between the 2.
IF the Mig 35 wings and the AESA radar would had been developed and be available in the time we ordered the Ks, we basically would have got Mig 35Ks. However, the AESA is still under development and A2G modes might need some more time, not a single real prototype of the Mig 35 is available so far and we actually should use the Ks on the carrier for some years now.
I prefer indigenous AESA and Kaveri engine for the future K upgrades, rather than Zhuk AE and RD33MK, to extend the indigenous content.

 

[Indischer]

Actually the Mig 29K is 90% of the Mig 35. It already has the same engines, without TVNs, the AESA radar is tested on K version and is a derivat of the Zhuk ME and most parts of the airframe (except of the planned wings) would be the same anyway. So it's not like there would be a huge difference between the 2.
IF the Mig 35 wings and the AESA radar would had been developed and be available in the time we ordered the Ks, we basically would have got Mig 35Ks. However, the AESA is still under development and A2G modes might need some more time, not a single real prototype of the Mig 35 is available so far and we actually should use the Ks on the carrier for some years now.
I prefer indigenous AESA and Kaveri engine for the future K upgrades, rather than Zhuk AE and RD33MK, to extend the indigenous content.

The airframe and undercarriage is also different, or rather strenghtened. I believe transforming a Naval variant from an Air-force specific fighter isn't all that easy, considering the experience with LCA. Since the Mig29K is conceived as a carrier-based aircraft, I believe it still had the better design that was apt for the Navy.

 

[sancho]

The airframe and undercarriage is also different, or rather strenghtened. I believe transforming a Naval variant from an Air-force specific fighter isn't all that easy, considering the experience with LCA. Since the Mig29K is conceived as a carrier-based aircraft, I believe it still had the better design that was apt for the Navy.

Of course, the K is navalised, but it is based on the same airframe base like the Mig 35 would be and why a Mig 35K would only have bigger wings that also are foldable as a real external difference.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Did I miss the price comparison

-- How much each of them cost
-- How much commonly used spares would cost
-- maintenance Cost over 2-years (given the labor rates are comparable)


Without such data, our analysis will be incomplete.


See I can buy camery that will do the job,
or I can buy lexus that will do similar job but I'll have this perceived superiority over non-lexus owners.


peace

 

[trident2010]

Interesting readings for Mig-29 upg and F-16 Blk 52+.

IAF has 66 Mig-29 upgrading to upg standard and PAF has 63 F-16 in which only 18 are blk 52.

During conflict I don't think there will be much work left for MKIs as Mig-29s will already sort out the F-16s.

 

[Kompromat]

@sandy_3126

Mere bhai , MIG-29 has lost EVERY air engagement against the 'teen series'. Mind you Saddam had AWACs too. Mig-29 is yet to shoot down its first teen series.

Mig-35 is just another Russian junk with large size, TVC and flashy touch screens. They are good in aerodynamics, but have pathetic mission processing, ECM, situational awareness capabilities. Not to forget that the Russian A2A missiles have not all been that successful. The weapons are inferior so are the tactics.

For WVR combat, F-16s are equipped with JHMCS, worlds fastest mission processors, highly advance sensors which build a great situational awareness picture for the pilot.

Its AIM-9M/X have look down shoot down capability with very high angles of off bore sighting.

Aerodynamically, F-16s have relaxstability aerodynamics and they don't bleed as much energy as the Migs in 'sustained ACM'.

F-16 seats are placed at an angle that reduce G loads. Added with a bubble canopy the pilots say that they feel as if they have grown wings...they feel as part of the F-16 with its all round visibility.

F-16s have nailed almost every air craft in its Generation in simulated combat....it all depends on the 'pilot'.

@sandy_3126

Mere bhai , MIG-29 has lost EVERY air engagement against the 'teen series'. Mind you Saddam had AWACs too. Mig-29 is yet to shoot down its first teen series.

Mig-35 is just another Russian junk with large size, TVC and flashy touch screens. They are good in aerodynamics, but have pathetic mission processing, ECM, situational awareness capabilities. Not to forget that the Russian A2A missiles have not all been that successful. The weapons are inferior so are the tactics.

For WVR combat, F-16s are equipped with JHMCS, worlds fastest mission processors, highly advance sensors which build a great situational awareness picture for the pilot.

Its AIM-9M/X have look down shoot down capability with very high angles of off bore sighting.

Aerodynamically, F-16s have relaxstability aerodynamics and they don't bleed as much energy as the Migs in 'sustained ACM'.

F-16 seats are placed at an angle that reduce G loads. Added with a bubble canopy the pilots say that they feel as if they have grown wings...they feel as part of the F-16 with its all round visibility.

F-16s have nailed almost every air craft in its Generation in simulated combat....it all depends on the 'pilot'.

 

[MiG-21]

@sandy_3126

Mere bhai , MIG-29 has lost EVERY air engagement against the 'teen series'. Mind you Saddam had AWACs too. Mig-29 is yet to shoot down its first teen series.

Mig-35 is just another Russian junk with large size, TVC and flashy touch screens. They are good in aerodynamics, but have pathetic mission processing, ECM, situational awareness capabilities. Not to forget that the Russian A2A missiles have not all been that successful. The weapons are inferior so are the tactics.

For WVR combat, F-16s are equipped with JHMCS, worlds fastest mission processors, highly advance sensors which build a great situational awareness picture for the pilot.

Its AIM-9M/X have look down shoot down capability with very high angles of off bore sighting.

Aerodynamically, F-16s have relaxstability aerodynamics and they don't bleed as much energy as the Migs in 'sustained ACM'.

F-16 seats are placed at an angle that reduce G loads. Added with a bubble canopy the pilots say that they feel as if they have grown wings...they feel as part of the F-16 with its all round visibility.

F-16s have nailed almost every air craft in its Generation in simulated combat....it all depends on the 'pilot'.

Actually we can take it the other way around. The Teen series can only fight against the MiG-29 if a required set of pre-conditions are true.

1# The opponent is a third world country, has all his EWR assets and most of this Airfield assets taken out by cruise missiles at the start of the war.
2# The opponents pilots are so well trained and in high spirits that some even flee their own country with their jets to a neighbouring country.
3# The Friendlies are operating in an environment with full AWACS and JSTARS coverage which give all the data to the Teens to function properly, which which they are useless. F-16 doesnt even have IRST.
4# Spy plane and Spy statellites giving round the clock updated information on the location of the enemy fighter-regroup locations.
5# Teens outnumber the MiG-29s by a factor of 30:1 or even more.
6# MiG-29s are poorly maintained and are downgraded variants which have never seen upgrades.

You take these away and the teen series are nothing more than flying heaps of overpriced scrap metal.

In the above 6 points, which points can PAF claim?

So the MiG-29 kills made, logically are shared by boat loads of AWACS, Spy sats, JSTARS, Spy planes, Cruise missiles, teen fighters etc etc. So basically the teen series aircraft are nothing more than junks if viewed individually, which coincidentally is what the thread is all about a one on one comparison. Funny...

Iraqi AWACS?? You make up stories to suit your interest? Iraqis had never had awacs. All they had was an incomplete prototype which also fled to Iran at the start of the war itself.

As for the rest of the post, all that wont save PAF's Block-52s *** from a R-73 with an ITR far surpassing that of the F-16, nor from a Zhuk-ME R-27 E series combo... all this assuming the kill switches on the Block-52s don't get activated.

 

[MiG-21]

As for the MiG-35, it will be more than a match for the Eurofighter or the Rafale in Dogfights given the fact that it will have a tremendous ITR brought on by the Thurst vectoring engines, low wing loading compounded by the fuselage-lift design which provides 40% of the lift.

 

[Storm Force]

An f16 in pak air force does not have the awacs technology and real time advantages of both the USA air force and the Israeli air force.

Also the training combat experience awacs and supporting fighters of the Indian airforce make the mig29smt x 66 and. The 48 mig29k more than match for pak f16...

Just because USA f16 took out three poorly trained iraqi mig29 that where outnumbered fifty to one with no gcc or Sam support totally blind..

Indians mig29 is a different proposal

 

[nomi007]

 

[Bratva]

PAF F-16 Blk 52 with JHMCS and AIM-9M/AIM-120 with ERIEYE support can do wonders in both WVR/BVR. JHMCS would give upper hand to F-16 in WVR with MIG-29 no matter how MIG-29 tries to out manuver F-16

What about JHMCS equivalent on IAF MIG-29?

Interesting readings for Mig-29 upg and F-16 Blk 52+.

IAF has 66 Mig-29 upgrading to upg standard and PAF has 63 F-16 in which only 18 are blk 52.

During conflict I don't think there will be much work left for MKIs as Mig-29s will already sort out the F-16s.

And rest of F-16's which are being MLU'ed are upgraded to BLK 50 standard with JHMCS

 

[Kompromat]

@MiG-21

My friend you are making up fairy tales for your imaginary friends. I have solid combat history to talk about, you have your fairtales.

Russian Migs are pieces of flying metal which are yet to score their first teen. While teens have knocked them out in EVERY engagement.

Pakistani F-16 Block52+ are technologically the most advanced flying machines in S.Asia which are fully networked with our AESA AEWCS and our EW ranges.

They are more advanced than your MKIs. Fitting a pack of Israeli avionics into a Russian flying truck doesn't hide the fact that its STILL Russian. Red Flag exposed the Indian propaganda hype around MKIs. These flying trucks were roaming like lost cows with everyone else engaged in the fight.

If you are so sure of the Migs, send them over and see if they survive AMRAAMs. We'll have a few more enemy tailpipes to hang at Karachi PAF meuseum.

 

[MiG-21]

PAF F-16 Blk 52 with JHMCS and AIM-9M/AIM-120 with ERIEYE support can do wonders in both WVR/BVR. JHMCS would give upper hand to F-16 in WVR with MIG-29 no matter how MIG-29 tries to out manuver F-16

What about JHMCS equivalent on IAF MIG-29?



And rest of F-16's which are being MLU'ed are upgraded to BLK 50 standard with JHMCS

Topsight-l HMDS.. from French Thales. Along with R-73 latest versions vs Aim-9M older version and the ITR advantage.

@MiG-21

My friend you are making up fairy tales for your imaginary friends. I have solid combat history to talk about, you have your fairtales.

Russian Migs are pieces of flying metal which are yet to score their first teen. While teens have knocked them out in EVERY engagement.

Pakistani F-16 Block52+ are technologically the most advanced flying machines in S.Asia which are fully networked with our AESA AEWCS and our EW ranges.

They are more advanced than your MKIs. Fitting a pack of Israeli avionics into a Russian flying truck doesn't hide the fact that its STILL Russian. Red Flag exposed the Indian propaganda hype around MKIs. These flying trucks were roaming like lost cows with everyone else engaged in the fight.

If you are so sure of the Migs, send them over and see if they survive AMRAAMs. We'll have a few more enemy tailpipes to hang at Karachi PAF meuseum.

Nah, its not faily tale, its the part of the story you censored. All you are blabbering about is equivalent to what's going on in Stromfront where they sprout, poor hitler committed suicide and we have to feel sorry for him, without going into the details of why he did that.

We would like to party with the PAF but the last time a war happened with India, PAF was no where to be seen and were hiding in their shelters safely. I hope next time a war takes place they will put up a fight, but I'm hoping against hope here.

 

[sancho]

Interesting readings for Mig-29 upg and F-16 Blk 52+.

IAF has 66 Mig-29 upgrading to upg standard and PAF has 63 F-16 in which only 18 are blk 52.

During conflict I don't think there will be much work left for MKIs as Mig-29s will already sort out the F-16s.

Too simple as well, since both sides have AWACS support, PAF and IAF are very modern air forces and there will be a lot of factors that will decide about advantages. However, when you look at fighter vs fighter comparisions only, IAF will remain with some advantages.

Pakistani F-16 Block52+ are technologically the most advanced flying machines in S.Asia

Congrats, you have just proven that even Mods can troll around, PAFs F16s are not even the most advanced F16s in S.Asia, since that would be Singapores B52s.