How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

[Safriz]

Pakistan's Shaheen 1A and Shaheen 2 have "MARV" capability and can dodge ABM.

 

[The Deterrent]

Pakistan's Shaheen 1A and Shaheen 2 have "MARV" capability and can dodge ABM.

No bro, thats not true...at least not for Shaheen 2. Shaheen-1A may have it, but it is very unlikely.

 

[Safriz]

No bro, thats not true...at least not for Shaheen 2. Shaheen-1A may have it, but it is very unlikely.

1A fins can change trajectory post boost...same goes for Shaheen 2 via sideways rocket motors...
ABM works on predicted trajectory..if that changes,the ABM loses effectiveness.

1 A can be related to Pershing II which had counter ABM capabilities via fins..
same goes for Ghaznavi..probably.

 

[The Deterrent]

1A fins can change trajectory post boost...same goes for Shaheen 2 via sideways rocket motors...
ABM works on predicted trajectory..if that changes,the ABM loses effectiveness.

1A has fins??

That is IF they are thrusters. See if they are, the whole system they are attached to will detach just after the course correction. Moreover, the re-entring warhead is spinning at a considerably high velocity, so any kind of thruster cannot work in this case.
Shaheen 2 currently does not have any capability to avoid capable ABMs. Shaheen 3 will be better.

 

[Safriz]

1A has fins??

That is IF they are thrusters. See if they are, the whole system they are attached to will detach just after the course correction. Moreover, the re-entring warhead is spinning at a considerably high velocity, so any kind of thruster cannot work in this case.
Shaheen 2 currently does not have any capability to avoid capable ABMs. Shaheen 3 will be better.

Yes..the thrusters detach after course correction / Trajectory change

 

[The Deterrent]

Thats the Shaheen-1 version 1. Not the Shaheen-1 Alpha, which was first flight tested last year.

Yes..the thrusters detach after course correction / Trajectory change

So they cannot alter the course or alter and recover the course after the course correction, which occurs just after the boost phase, when the missile is still gaining altitude.

 

[Safriz]

Shaheen series is speculated to have Radar scene correlation capability...Some American commenters say so,probably based on their own satellite or radar based observation of the shaheen series test launches.

On 25th April 2012, the ISPR revealed more information about the missile. The missile weight is approximately 10,000 kg, slightly heavier than its predecessor and can carry either a single 1000kg warhead or be MIRVed with between 3 to 5 nuclear warheads weighing between 200-300 kg each.[9] In addition, the Shaheen IA primarily contains sophisticated automated refueling and advanced stealth technology features that were not present in its previous version to avoid detections from radars. Even Pakistani radars could not track the missile after it was launched. All three Shaheen missiles, Shaheen I, Shaheen 1A and Shaheen II are reportedly equipped with the latest PSAC (Post-Separation Attitude Correction) system. This is a unique feature which consists of small thrusters that can adjust the warhead trajectory for greater accuracy and evading anti-ballistic missile defence systems. The features of the missile could also serve as a testbed of features which could be implemented on the yet to be deployed Shaheen III which could potentially have a range of 4500km

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...aded-shaheen-1a-missile-40.html#ixzz2KtDMtAd5

Thats the Shaheen-1 version 1. Not the Shaheen-1 Alpha, which was first flight tested last year.

Yes,i confused between the two..Shaheen 1A has greater range and goes much higher and into much thinner atmosphere where fins wont work,so rocket motors remain the only option to steer the warhead assembly and that is widely used in other missile systems as counter ABm in addition to Course correction.

So they cannot alter the course or alter and recover the course after the course correction, which occurs just after the boost phase, when the missile is still gaining altitude.

 

[The Deterrent]

Shaheen series is speculated to have Radar scene correlation capability...Some American commenters say so,probably based on their own satellite or radar based observation of the shaheen series test launches.

No bro, we don't have any technology like that. F*ck the Americans, they think that Shaheen-1 was based on M-9/DF-15.

Yes,i confused between the two..Shaheen 1A has greater range and goes much higher and into much thinner atmosphere where fins wont work,so rocket motors remain the only option to steer the warhead assembly and that is widely used in other missile systems as counter ABm in addition to Course correction.

I think that the only ABM evasion Shaheen-1A offers is much higher speed in its class (compared to Ghauri) and a depressed trajectory.

 

[Safriz]

What Pakistan did : The re-entry vehicle carried by the Shaheen-2 missile has a mass of 1250 kg, which
includes the mass of a nuclear warhead and a terminal guidance system.This re-entry
vehicle is unlike that of the Shaheen-1 (which has four moving delta control fins at the
rear) and has small liquid-propellant side thrust motors, which are used to orientate
the re-entry vehicle before and during re-entry to improve accuracy by providing
stabilization during the terminal phase. This can also be used to fly evasive maneuvers and change the trajectory several times during the terminal phase, making it
immensely problematic for existing anti-ballistic missile (ABM) defense systems to
successfully intercept the missile. The re-entry vehicle is also stated to utilize a satellite
guidance system to provide updates on its position, further improving its accuracy
and reducing the CEP.

@AhaseebA ...

You said this yourself... My observation isnt wrong....apperantly

Shaheen 2 does have side thrusters and can change course many times to Avoid Indian ABM

 

[The Deterrent]

@AhaseebA ...

You said this yourself... My observation isnt wrong....apperantly

Shaheen 2 does have side thrusters and can change course many times to Avoid Indian ABM

I took the info from the same wiki, and blindly believed it...was perhaps a bit of a fanboy back then.
The truth is Shaheen-II has no wonders, other than it can very effectively correct its course after boost phase. For the rest of the flight, it is just a spinning warhead following a ballistic trajectory. It doesn't even have the claimed range of 2500km, rather it can strike to a maximum 2000km with standard payload (1000kg).

The improvements are going to arrive soon, in form of Shaheen-III.

 

[Safriz]

I took the info from the same wiki, and blindly believed it...was perhaps a bit of a fanboy back then.
The truth is Shaheen-II has no wonders, other than it can very effectively correct its course after boost phase. For the rest of the flight, it is just a spinning warhead following a ballistic trajectory. It doesn't even have the claimed range of 2500km, rather it can strike to a maximum 2000km with standard payload (1000kg).

The improvements are going to arrive soon, in form of Shaheen-III.

Any source???

 

[Immanuel]

I think currently all of Pakistani Ballistic missiles have no counters against Indian ABM which can hit out at decent altitudes of around 80 km. The only problem for the short term could be numbers but once employed in a larger scale, the Indian ABM in phase 1 and eventually phase 2 will make pretty much Pakistani arsenal useless. Key is to deploy it in numbers.

 

[The Deterrent]

I think currently all of Pakistani Ballistic missiles have no counters against Indian ABM which can hit out at decent altitudes of around 80 km. The only problem for the short term could be numbers but once employed in a larger scale, the Indian ABM in phase 1 and eventually phase 2 will make pretty much Pakistani arsenal useless. Key is to deploy it in numbers.

And if you recall, CURRENTLY India hasn't deployed any ABMs (except the rumored S-300PMU).
They can easily be countered by using countermeasures (chaff/balloons) and MIRVs. Additionally, sheer numbers and Quasi-ballisitc missiles can also be the troublemakers.

 

[Viper0011.]

I think currently all of Pakistani Ballistic missiles have no counters against Indian ABM which can hit out at decent altitudes of around 80 km. The only problem for the short term could be numbers but once employed in a larger scale, the Indian ABM in phase 1 and eventually phase 2 will make pretty much Pakistani arsenal useless. Key is to deploy it in numbers.

Just so you know, there is NO ABM system in the world that can be claimed as your post represents India's to be....that it'll leave the other side's arsenal 'useless'. That's a crazy thought and I hope both of you guys don't get into a war due to such macho-ism.

It's very hard to overwhelm human brain circuits. But it's just expensive and time consuming to come up with solutions to overwhelm sensor circuits!!

 

[Immanuel]

Actually offcourse no ABM system is fool proof which is why often ABM ans SAM trails include dual shots at a single target. Currently, indeed the ABM still has to be deployed in adequate numbers and once it is, India should be able to guarantee 98% safety which is pretty much rendering the entire Ballistic missiles force of Pakistan useless.

Ballistic missiles are expensive and with Pakistan with severe financial problems its going no where to have an expensive arms race (India always had, will andwill always continue to have an over arching strategic and tactical superiority over Pakistan. Quasi ballistic missiles (Nasr I assume) are pretty stupid weapons IMO. Actually Nasr is by far the most thoughtless missile copied by Pakistan yet, to use this missile even in a conventional sense on day one would require India to have a nuclear reponse, this short range abomination of a missile is Pakistan's suicide pill of its own making. Why not keep nuclear weapons separate. Atleast India has some clarity, I hate it that Prithvi can be used for conventional uses as well (since now a prithvi launch can be percieved as a nuke launch) and I hope it can taken out of service, firstly because its old (though more than capable of hitting its target), it best serves as a target missile. For the rest I hope Agni series remain the only missiles capable of nuclear strike. Even Sagarika/shaurya missiles should be purely conventional. Makes it easier to know when the stakes are being upped, however, if Pakistani radars do pick up a Agni lauch, well then its good bye Pakistan.

Best is for Pakistan to give up its nuclear weapons, they will only be the reason for its destruction. India has little intentions beyond the LOC, if it wasn't for Pakistani Army's and ISI backed constant hostilities, India would remain rather quiet on the Pakistani front.

I think there is no point for Pakistan in fighting it anymore.