History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[Lux de Veritas]

Distinctly upper-class, Mr Abhisit hails from a wealthy family of Thai-Chinese origin. Both his parents were medical professors.
BBC News - Profile: Abhisit Vejjajiva

One Abhist clan member claim they are my tribe, Taiwanese speaker.

Vejjajiva ancestry revealed

With reference to Leonie Vejjajiva's letter, I should like, as a member of that family, to clarify and set the record straight.

Our ancestors were Chinese belonging to the dialect group called "Hokkien", prevalent in the coastal province of Hokkien or Fujian, with the clan name (Sae) of Ouan (Hokkien pronunciation), or Yuan in Mandarin. They, however, did not come to Siam directly from the Chinese province, but had settled in Kampot, a seaport now in Cambodia but then under Annamese (Vietnamese) rule, from where they set foot on Thai soil in Chanthaburi in the year 1833 during the reign of King Rama III.

The Hokkiens were the first Chinese to arrive in Ayutthaya, in the 18th century, and spread all over the country, especially in the South and Southeast, on the trading sea route from China. The Na Songkla and the Na Ranong families as well as the Krairikshs are of Hokkien descent. This is not to be (but often) confused with another Chinese dialect group known in English as Hakkas but as "Khae" in the Thai language, to which many well-known figures and families belong, such as Mr Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore and the famous Lamsam family of Thailand. So if Leonie Vejjajiva's "theory" about the "tall" Hakkas and the inherited "syndromes of heart, psychiatric and blood diseases" is to be pursued, I would suggest that she turn to such Hakka descendants for verification.

Intermarriage seems to be blamed by Leonie Vejjajiva for the afflictions suffered by her family, presumably her children. At Chantaburi, where there has always been a closely-knit community of people sharing the Hokkien bloodline, marriage between members of community families have over the years been quite common, thus making the numerous descendants "relatives". Such intermarriages are not uncommon in other communities and indeed Thai society generally, without any implication or insinuation as to heath or inherited disease, a fact appreciated even by many foreigners, but incomprehensible perhaps to some who refuse to understand even after spending as many as 50 years in our midst. A more pertinent point to ponder in this case is whether rather than putting the blame on "intermarriage," one should not turn attention to miscegenation, defined as "the inter-breeding of people of different races", especially in light of the unknown or unaccounted for foreign gene.

Leonie Vejjajiva mentioned in her letter about her plan to write a book about my own family. I certainly feel a little flattered, and would wish her well, provided that the book, as written by an educated, well-informed and unprejudiced author, shall refrain from any precipitous judgement or indeed any venom.

Hun Sen Chinese ancestry.

"Some officials now mention that Hun Sen's grandfather was Chinese".

Time - Briton Hadden, Henry Robinson Luce - Google Books

In Wiki, Hun Sen was born in Kampong Cham, and was the third child of six children to a peasant family. His father, Hun Neang, was a resident monk in a local Wat in Kampong Cham province before defrocking himself to join the French resistance and married Hun Sen's mother, Dee Yon in the 1940s. Hun Neang's paternal grandparents were wealthy landowners of Teochew Chinese heritage.

Hun Sen's wife has roots from Hainan of China.

เกรียงไกร ปริญญาพล

The Norodom and Sisowath are quite mestizo according some Chinese articles I have read. Can't cite URL with you at this moment.

I find out that even most South Chinese from Mainland are northernized, if you go to the urban area in the South China, it is definitely dominated by the northern phenotype.

That is only true to some extend in Shenzhen and Pearl River Delta. Places like Guangzhou, Guangdong province, Guangxi, HK, Fujian and Taiwan are very Southern Chinese.

Surprisingly Yunan Han Chinese are quite Northern Chinese phenotype. The minorities are overwhelmingly Southern Chinese phenotype.

I wonder if Vietnamese can really spot me out as a Chinese. I have been Vietnam and blend in like local if I do not speak. But Northern Chinese are really distinguishable.

I am from Fujian, just like Abhisit.

Just want to ask, if Thaksin, Yingluck, Abhisit walk in Saigon, can you tell the differences?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

That is only true to some extend in Shenzhen and Pearl River Delta. Places like Guangzhou, Guangdong province, Guangxi, HK, Fujian and Taiwan are very Southern Chinese.

Surprisingly Yunan Han Chinese are quite Northern Chinese phenotype. The minorities are overwhelmingly Southern Chinese phenotype.

I wonder if Vietnamese can really spot me out as a Chinese. I have been Vietnam and blend in like local if I do not speak. But Northern Chinese are really distinguishable.

I am from Fujian, just like Abhisit.

Just want to ask, if Thaksin, Yingluck, Abhisit walk in Saigon, can you tell the differences?

People's phenotype will vary with age, Yingluck looked more central-northern Chinese when she was young.

Abhisit's father clearly looks more Southeast Asian, but he looks more Chinese than his father.

He also bears some similarity with a famous TV Drama actor from North China.

He probably got some northern phenotype from his Hakka ancestry.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Abhisit face is common to Southern Chinese when they get fat. There are a lot of overlapped between Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese phenotype. Yingluck phenotype is common among Southern Chinese girls as well.

I think its not very easy to tell Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese merely by photo. Chinese ourselves can roughly, tell it by behavior, the Mandarin slang and looks when having face to face meeting.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Abhisit face is common to Southern Chinese when they get fat. There are a lot of overlapped between Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese phenotype. Yingluck phenotype is common among Southern Chinese girls as well.

I think its not very easy to tell Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese merely by photo. Chinese ourselves can roughly, tell it by behavior and looks when having face to face meeting.

He looks North Chinese with some Southeast Asian input, hence this is the South Chinese look.

BTW, they are all mixed, they will look very different with age.

I think South Chinese got more Southeast Asian influence overall, but it is not always easy to tell them apart from a North Chinese.

Here is the Taiwanese actor Wallace Ho, but his ancestry is 100% North Chinese. Can you tell him apart?

 

[BoQ77]

I think I should make myself clearer. What if Southern Chinese like Guangdong, Fujian, Singapore and Thai Chinese stay in Vietnam. Can you detect these people?

I cannot even tell Vietnamese in Singapore and local Chinese. I can tell Northern Chinese.

Lý Long Tường (李龍祥; 1174–?) was a prince of the Lý Dynasty of Đại Việt (in modern-day Vietnam) and later became Lee of Hwasan, a general of Korea. He is an ancestor of one branch of the Lee (or Rhee) family today in both South and North Korea.[1]

Tường was born in 1174, the seventh son of Emperor Lý Anh Tông (who reigned from 1138–75) and his consort Le My Nga. He was appointed the Great National Tutor.[2]

In 1225, Trần Thủ Độ overthrew the Lý Dynasty by introducing his nephew Trần Cảnh to the imperial court to serve the incumbent Empress Lý Chiêu Hoàng, he then orchestrated a political marriage between Trần Cảnh and Lý Chiêu Hoàng and thereafter forced Lý Chiêu Hoàng to abdicate in favour of her husband Trần Cảnh. This marked the end of the Lý Dynasty and the beginning of the Trần Dynasty. With the Trần family having just gained the throne, Trần Thủ Độ ordered the massacre of the Lý family members and forced all of its descendants to change their surname to Nguyen, and sent them to the northern mountainous areas.

Contents

• 1 Life in exile
• 2 Defeat of the Mongol invaders
• 3 Descendants in Korea
• 4 References
• 5 External links

Life in exile
This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2011)
In 1226, (Kien Trung's year of the Second Trần Dynasty of Thai Tong), in order to avoid further bloodshed by the Trần family, Lý Long Tường, together with 6000 mandarins and servants departed from the Than Phu (now Thanh Hóa Province) estuary and fled to the South China Sea in three large ships. They carried relics with them, including the imperial crown, imperial costumes, and the heaven imperial sword (Thượng phương bảo kiếm). After a month on the high seas, they were forced to land in Taiwan due to a typhoon. When Lý Long Tường decided to leave, his son Ly Long Hien was severely ill and had to stay in Taiwan together with 200 mandarins, followers and servants. Lý Long Tường continued northwards to Ongjin County and then on to Haeju, Hwanghae in the Yellow Sea. Legend has it that the Korean king Kojong of the Goryeo Dynasty (1192–1259) had dreamt of a grand phoenix flying from the south and landing in his nation. Therefore, he ordered the local government of Hae-ju to give the Vietnamese royal refugees a red-carpeted welcome and allow them to live in a manor in his country.

Tuong and his companions started their culture of fishing and breeding. He also opened a school for literature (poetry, rhythmical prose and worship rituals) and a school to teach martial arts - the art of war. Thousands of local students joined his two schools.

Defeat of the Mongol invaders
In 1232, an army of the Mongol Empire led by General Sartai launched an attack on Korea by both sea and land. The troops, using the waterways, attacked Hwang-hae but were defeated by the army and the local inhabitants led by Ly Long Tuong.[citation needed] Ly Long Tuong always rode a white horse and as a result, was dubbed the "White Horse General."[citation needed]

In 1253, the Mongol army led by the great Khan Mongca launched a second attack on Korea. The Yuan-Mongol army, led by Tang Ji, attacked Hwang-hae overland and by using the waterways. Lý Long Tường, although by then over 70 years old, led the army and the local inhabitants to victory after a five-month campaign.[citation needed] As a result of this important triumph, the Korean king renamed Chen-san (Hangul: ; Hanja: 鎭山) Hwa-san (花山) and appointed Ly Long Tuong Hwa-san a General. The location of the Mongol army surrender was called the Gate of Surrender Acceptance (受降門; Su-hang-mun). The Korean king also had a pillar erected here to honour Ly Long Tuong. (The pillar can still be seen today).[citation needed]

When Lý Long Tường died, he was buried at the foot of Mount Di A near Panmunjeom (板門店).[citation needed] The mountain peak (Kwang-dea) where Lý Long Tường always sat to look southwards and cried is now called the "Peak of Nostalgia" (望國壇).

Descendants in Korea
Today, there are some 1500 households in North Korea and 600 in South Korea with connections to Lý Long Tường.[3] A descendant of Lý Long Tường, Lee Chang Kun (Ly Xuong Can), the director of Golden Bridge Finance Group visits Lý's temple in Dinh Bang village in Bắc Ninh Province every year with his family living and sends money to help in the reconstruction of the temple. He has also invested in local projects and together with this family took up Vietnamese citizenship in 2010. His son born in 1997 was named Ly Viet Quoc.[4] At the end of 1995, a report on Lý Long Tường was broadcast by South Korean TV channel KBS.[citation needed]

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Until now Lee Chang Kun said, there's less than 1/1000 % of Viet blood in their body after nearly 800 years stays in Korea, but they always look at southward and consider them as Vietnamese.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

North Vietnamese hate South Vietnamese and think they are ugly and annoying.

Check the comments in this video.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

You cannot even tell set Chinese apart from some Malay, deep deep South in Indonesia. But some Northern Chinese, especially male has a kind of Mongol/Korean look but that Southern Chinese has those looks as well, but not that prevalent.

Below are Malay

Borneo Dayak Kadazan

Borneo Dayak Iban

Borneo Dayak Penan

Borneo Dayak Penan

Borneo Dayak Penan

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

All the people above look Southeast Asian, except the girl in the last pic. But she is too young, i bet that she will look more Southeast Asian when she is getting older.

And no, North Chinese don't look like Mongolians and Koreans, they don't always have the small eyes and flat face. Most North Chinese have long and narrow nose, but the eyes can depend, some have large eyes, while some have small eyes.

The oversea Chinese in ASEAN are mixed, they don't represent the mainstream look in China.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

When I go Northern China, most people say I look like Yunnan minorities but I am 100% Fujian Quanzhou. All the above Malay pics are common in Southern Chinese.

Below is Athena Chu, a 100% Southern Chinese, from Guangdong. She can pass of as Vietnamese or Thai.

Does Athena Chu looks SE Asian, Pinoy, Vietnamese, Thai or Chinese minorities?

 

[BoQ77]

North Vietnamese hate South Vietnamese and think they are ugly and annoying.

Check the comments in this video.

The video not as you expressed, dont know what you want to express ... pal...
do you understand the language in the video ?

-------
Beside that, in 1 country, the fact that the different accent from different regions made the like or dislike is the common issue all over the world.

For your information, we dislike the Chinese voice utmost.
A group of Chinese tourists aboard is a potential annoying source.

Lux / don't talk about the look anymore ...
We love Korean actresses althought know that's the plastic surgery product.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

When I go Northern China, most people say I look like Yunnan minorities but I am 100% Fujian Quanzhou. All the above Malay pics are common in Southern Chinese.

Below is Athena Chu, a 100% Southern Chinese, from Guangdong. She can pass of as Vietnamese or Thai.

View attachment 12055
Does Athena Chu looks SE Asian, Pinoy, Vietnamese, Thai or Chinese minorities?

She doesn't look Vietnamese, but she looks intermediate between Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian, just like many South Chinese.

Also, her phenotype was more northern when she was young, when time goes on, her phenotype started to shift more toward southern. This is also a common trait for many South Chinese.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

She doesn't look Vietnamese, but she looks intermediate between Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian, just like many South Chinese.

Also, her phenotype was more northern when she was young, when time goes on, her phenotype started to shift more toward southern. This is also a common trait for many South Chinese.

Its not age, its her skin color, hairstyle and her dressing. She can pass of as Vietnamese, Laotian and Thai just by tanning.

Have you been SE Asia? You will be surprise to find Laotian or Indonesian fairer and look more "Chinese" than many dark Northern Chinese girls.

Below General Suharto, got quite a Chinese look

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Athena Chu's most recognizable role is Huang Rong, one of most popular female protagonists in Jin Yong's novels.

Huang Rong's origin is from northern Zhejiang near Shanghai, i'd say the phenotype of the young Athena can fit into the area around Shanghai, while right now she looks like a typical Cantonese woman.

Its not age, its her skin color, hairstyle and her dressing. She can pass of as Vietnamese, Laotian and Thai just by tanning.

Have you been SE Asia? You will be surprise to find Laotian or Indonesian fairer and look more "Chinese" than many dark Northern Chinese girls.

Below General Suharto, got quite a Chinese look

Sure, many Southeast Asians can have the fair complexion, but they don't have the high nose bridge of North Chinese.

Athena Chu's nose bridge is not very flat and low, that makes her not very Vietnamese, although she clearly got some Southeast Asian influence.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Athena Chu's most recognizable role is Huang Rong, one of most popular female protagonists in Jin Yong's novels.

Huang Rong's origin is from northern Zhejiang near Shanghai, i'd say the phenotype of the young Athena can fit into the area around Shanghai, while right now she looks like a typical Cantonese woman.

I think you may want to go really deep deep into SE Asia and see the phenotype.
Below is Vietnamese woman soldiers. Do they look northern Chinese?

There is so much overlapped between Southern Chinese, Vietnamese especially, that I think it would be quite a conceit to say that the groups are very distinguishable.

When I visited Vietnam, non of Vietnamese think I am foreigner. When I visited Beijing, they think I look minority.

I cannot recognize Vietnamese in Singapore unless they open their mouth. I am still able to figure out who is Northern Chinese.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I think you may want to go really deep deep into SE Asia and see the phenotype.
Below is Vietnamese woman soldiers. Do they look northern Chinese?

There is so much overlapped between Southern Chinese, Vietnamese especially, that I think it would be quite a conceit to say that the groups are very distinguishable.

When I visited Vietnam, non of Vietnamese think I am foreigner. When I visited Beijing, they think I look minority.

I cannot recognize Vietnamese Singaporean unless they open their mouth. I am still able to figure out who is Northern Chinese.

Sometimes using celebrities as the phenotype is not a good idea.

BTW, these girls can pass as the Chinese minorities in the Southwest areas.

But the South Chinese from Mainland China are still closer to the northern phenotype, while those oversea Chinese lived in Southeast Asia are much more southern in there phenotype.

Also, not all South Chinese have southern phenotype, the South Chinese from Shanghai/Zhejiang/Jiangsu/Anhui/Hubei/Hunan/Jiangxi/Sichuan/Guizhou/Yunnan/Chongqing all have more dominant northern phenotype.

Only the South Chinese from Fujian and Guangdong/Guangxi/Hainan have stronger southern phenotype, but the modern Cantonese from Guangdong also love to marry North Chinese or other South Chinese with northern phenotype, so the phenotype in Guangdong is also rapidly switching toward northern.

You can only say that the oversea Chinese in Southeast Asia are closer to the local Southeast Asians, not the South Chinese from Mainland China.