HISTORY OF MALABAR :DISCUSSIONS.

[Joe Shearer]

I dunno the more I read History the more I realize that most of these books are essentially the author's own reading of History laced with references of choice more than anything else.

I'm increasingly inclined to believe that there really isn't such a thing as 'objective history' because there are enough facts out there, about pretty much most things, to present one's thesis howsoever one wishes to present it (within reason of course) & in the instances where there aren't the author's own preconceived notions & biases make it so.

And then most of them go a step further by extracting endless extrapolations from their facts of choice whereby a single referenced point would end up formulating a half a page long Opinion as if there is some continuity between the two in terms of both being empirical evidence as opposed to one being a statement of fact (though not always) & the other being an Opinion formed from it which could either be completely spot-on or completely rubbish.

Then there is the intellectual dishonesty of authors who'd quote one statement that goes in their favor while disparagingly brush aside another that goes against them even if it goes against them - This is exactly what the Jinnah was Secular vs Jinnah was Islamist camp does all the time !

Talked about Religion - Only a trump card, political rhetoric etc.etc.etc.

Talked about Equality - Didn't mean 'equality' equality but rather equality 'equality' i.e no presidency or the prime ministership for the non muslim.

Franky more often than not I'm nauseated when I read these books who preach their own reading of history without an iota of honesty or objectivity about the entire thing.

The more I read them (and I've been reading quite a few this past year) the more I'm convinced that there is some merit to my own view that it was never a Secularism vs Islamism thing in the Quaid's mind....that he never wanted a Secular or an Islamist Pakistan....!

Besides I was reading Z.A Suleri's My Leader which was published in '45 & thats also the impression that I got & the Quaid himself read the book & wrote a letter to the author on how well hes presented the idea of Pakistan & our struggle in that book and ordered a couple of hundred copies of that book to be distributed to the people he wanted it to be distributed & this letter formed the forward of that book !

Should I then brush this aside as just another 'pleasantry' or would the Quaid's own book review & the enthusiasm that went with it makes the book more worthy of merit than a dozen books by a dozen authors on what was Pakistan supposed to be ? What did the Quaid want ? And that whole list of questions !

@scorpionx

LOL

Please can you take @Armstrong to our discussion on historiography?

 

[kalanirnay]

Whole world wondered about the treasure in vaults of Padmanabha swamy temple.
But only few know that a good share about them are from Malabar .Chieftains ,Hindus and Kings during that time stock all of their golds in ships and send all of them in to Travancore with their womens and childrens .To protect all of them from Tipu's soldiers.
Tipu's father Hyder Ali once captured areas around world famous Guruvayoor Temple .But he received hefty ransom from Hindus for the protection of that temple.

There is a interesting story about Hyder Ali's attack on Guruvayoor temple.

In 1766 Haider Ali (Tipu sultan’s father) had raided the town and had damaged Guruvayur temple. But it was not destroyed because his aid Hydros kutty who used to be a Hindu and a Guruvayur devotee who had converted to islam, pleaded with him to spare it. Hyder Ali even exempted land revenue tax from the temple and allowed repairs.

AD 1789 Tipu sultan stormed the Guruvayur temple with intention of destroying it and started arson. Kerala records says that at that time a fortuitous downpour stopped the fire from causing significant damage to the temple. But fortunately the samoodri king had already removed the Mulavigraha or sacred idol of the Guruvayoor Temple and it was moved to the Ambalapuzha Sri Krishna Temple in Travancore State.

Even today daily pujas are conducted in Ambalapuzha Sri Krishna Temple in memor of the idol of Guruvayoor Temple which was temporarily installed and worshipped. The Guruvayoor deity was restored back only after the death of Tipu sultan. Such was the danger to the idol.

But for every Hydros Ali there was a multitude of Mopila muslims from kerala who joined Tipu Sultan to kill and plunder their own Malayalee Hindus and christians.

 

[INDIC]

The sort of history you might have consulted might be the reason. Do you know what was going on in India at that time, and between whom? To Indian historians, that other series of towering rivalries far out-shadowed what was happening in an obscure corner of the country. In contrast, in France, when the Mayor of the Palace turned back the Muslims in a famous battle, it was a key battle, absolutely at the core of their national development.

It is possible that your disappointment stems from the fact that an opportunity for showing the Muslims in defeat was missed, even though in the history of that time, it was a minor sideshow compared to the far greater drama being played out. That far greater drama is given ample space in most histories, even general purpose ones covering the history of India from the Indus Valley to the gaining of independence. Historians were not aware of the political need to re-write history to serve the purposes of contemporary electioneering.

You mentioned Bappa Rawal. There is no very good account of his times, except for the poetic exaggerations of his own bards and court poets. It is probable that the Arabs failed to make any impression on the Gurjara-Pratiharas, although the legendary account has it that the Sisodias were responsible for the resistance. Any account of this resistance taking the form of a campaign into Afghanistan is, at best, a romantic fiction.

When proponent of Aryan invasion theory can create entire theory based on Hindu mythologies like Indra's battle, what wrong in believing in court poems. My point was, the Arab invasion of three continents was the turning point in the human history, it should be told to our generation, why they failed to annex deep into India. Moreover, I have also seen historians trying to erase or belittle Maratha Empire's legacy that existed between Mughal Empire and British Indian Empire. I have talked to dozens of people both from South Asia and Britain who still think Mughals were ruling most of India until 1857 before British conquest of India.

 

[scorpionx]

@scorpionx

LOL

Please can you take @Armstrong to our discussion on historiography?

Nice to see you after such a long break, sir. Hope you are fine. I was thinking about the same line what Armstrong said here. After going through couple of chapters of Sarila's book on partion the feeling was quite exciting. But after going through a review of his book it seemed a fine administrative officer like him with unmatched skills might well be biased in their judgements and we the readers need to verify and reexamine the interpretations again and again. Off course it will be a pleasure if Armstrong joins the discussion as it has been always a pleasure to read his unbiased views.
Take care and hope you will join the discussions soon after you get some respite from your work.

 

[Joe Shearer]

When proponent of Aryan invasion theory can create entire theory based on Hindu mythologies like Indra's battle, what wrong in believing in court poems. My point was, the Arab invasion of three continents was the turning point in the human history, it should be told to our generation, why they failed to annex deep into India. Moreover, I have also seen historians trying to erase or belittle Maratha Empire's legacy that existed between Mughal Empire and British Indian Empire. I have talked to dozens of people both from South Asia and Britain who still think Mughals were ruling most of India until 1857 before British conquest of India.

You must read more.

The Aryan Invasion Theory and stuff like that belongs to the domain of protohistory, not history. Secondly, the Aryan Invasion Theory is not based on Hindu mythology but on linguistics. It is the lack of linkages between linguistic analysis and archaeological records that has caused confusion. Nothing to do with Indra's battle, whatever you are referring to. If you need some elucidation, apply to @Bang Galore : he will help you to get your facts straight.

The Arab invasion of three continents was certainly not a turning point in Indian history. Again, try to educate yourself on the far more important narrative of Indian history that was prevalent at the time, in the 9th century, in India. This was not France; there were other things that occupied the minds of Indian rulers.

It is not clear why you are now jumping to the Maratha Empire. That is completely different. But even there you seem to have no clue about historical events.

As for the dozens of people from south Asia and Britain who think that the Mughals were ruling India until 1857, that is technically correct. The British actually ruled as nominated functionaries of the Mughal administration until 1857, which, incidentally, is the date of the Indian Mutiny. There was no formal replacement of the Mughal Emperor by the Marathas; in case you are unaware, the Mughal Emperor was a puppet of the Marathas, but was formally still the sovereign, including the sovereign of the Maratha king, whose Prime Minister was the Peshwa, and whose feudatory nobles were the Gaekwad of Baroda, the Scindias of Gwalior, the Hokars of Indore and the Bhonsles of Nagpur. Try to read the accounts of the transactions between the Marathas and the Mughal Court at Delhi for a fuller understanding. A de facto ruler is not the same thing as a de jure ruler.

I have always advised you to stay away from history and discussions on history, and can only repeat that advice.

 

[kalanirnay]

Pls stick to Kerala history in this thread. AIT and Marathas can be discussed in some other thread.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pls stick to Kerala history in this thread. AIT and Marathas can be discussed in some other thread.

What were you doing since 7:19 pm yesterday? Sleeping?

 

[INDIC]

he Aryan Invasion Theory and stuff like that belongs to the domain of protohistory, not history. Secondly, the Aryan Invasion Theory is not based on Hindu mythology but on linguistics. It is the lack of linkages between linguistic analysis and archaeological records that has caused confusion. Nothing to do with Indra's battle, whatever you are referring to. If you need some elucidation, apply to @Bang Galore : he will help you to get your facts straight.

Then you are not informed regarding that, many people indeed quote Indra's battle to prove that there was a Aryan invasion and Aryans destroyed the Indus Valley that Dravidian were dark people and Aryan had golden hair and fair skin.(That's my personal chatting with lots of folks) and you will even find lots of them after searching on the net. I really feel sorry for the mess up that Europeans did to our history.

It is not clear why you are now jumping to the Maratha Empire. That is completely different. But even there you seem to have no clue about historical events.

Marathas have been belittled by the historians for a vested interest both British historians and South Asian historians, lots many British folks will tell you how they conquered India from Mughals and saved Hindus from Mughal onslaught and I am fed up telling them numerous time that there was no Mughal rule after 1758. Yes, even in India, same impression was created that Marathas were insignificant between Mughal Empire and the British Indian Empire.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Then you are not informed regarding that, many people indeed quote Indra's battle to prove that there was a Aryan invasion and Aryans destroyed the Indus Valley that Dravidian were dark people and Aryan had golden hair and fair skin.(That's my personal chatting with lots of folks) and you will even find lots of them after searching on the net. I really feel sorry for the mess up that Europeans did to our history.

What racist rubbish! That was discarded in the 1930s and 1940s. Please, @INDIC , whatever else you do, stay away from history.

Then you are not informed regarding that, many people indeed quote Indra's battle to prove that there was a Aryan invasion and Aryans destroyed the Indus Valley that Dravidian were dark people and Aryan had golden hair and fair skin.(That's my personal chatting with lots of folks) and you will even find lots of them after searching on the net.

What have the views of the 'lots of folks' you seem to talk to, have to do with history?
Why are we wasting time on this rubbish?

 

[scorpionx]

@INDIC
Rg Veda says nothing about golden hair or fair skin as far as I knew. Its little too much.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I've had enough ignorance for the day.

Good night all.

Then you are not informed regarding that, many people indeed quote Indra's battle to prove that there was a Aryan invasion and Aryans destroyed the Indus Valley that Dravidian were dark people and Aryan had golden hair and fair skin.(That's my personal chatting with lots of folks) and you will even find lots of them after searching on the net. I really feel sorry for the mess up that Europeans did to our history.



Marathas have been belittled by the historians for a vested interest both British historians and South Asian historians, lots many British folks will tell you how they conquered India from Mughals and saved Hindus from Mughal onslaught and I am fed up telling them numerous time that there was no Mughal rule after 1758. Yes, even in India, same impression was created that Marathas were insignificant between Mughal Empire and the British Indian Empire.

@INDIC , only you can help yourself

 

[takeiteasy]

It could be Cheral it could be Chera, there is a place called cherthala in kerala. Chera-thala would literally mean land of the Chera.

What I've read(long back) is Cherthala - it was annexed from Kochi kingdom to Travancore for reason unknown. it is "Chertha-Sthalam" . can't vouch for authenticity.

We do not know that. All sources of the name is speculation. My paternal family is from Cherthala too. My paternal tharavadu peru is Ayyanatuu. Older members of your family might know about it.

Ayyanattu parayi/thekkanattu parayi?

 

[INDIC]

What racist rubbish! That was discarded in the 1930s and 1940s. Please, @INDIC , whatever else you do, stay away from history.



What have the views of the 'lots of folks' you seem to talk to, have to do with history?
Why are we wasting time on this rubbish?

Yes it must be discarded, lot many European believe and still talk about it.

@INDIC
Rg Veda says nothing about golden hair or fair skin as far as I knew. Its little too much.

I didn't see the original verse but guy whom I talked with provided a translated verse how the Aryans have golden hair. Nothing more to cross check it.

 

[scorpionx]

Yes it must be discarded, lot many European believe and still talk about it.



I didn't see the original verse but guy whom I talked with provided a translated verse how the Aryans have golden hair. Nothing more to cross check it.

I have a translated version by Ramesh Chandra Dutta. I will look for it. Give me the number of the mandala if you got it.

 

[INDIC]

I have a translated version by Ramesh Chandra Dutta. I will look for it. Give me the number of the mandala if you got it.

I don't have but looked a fabricated translation and golden(swarnim) is often used frequently in mentioning aura or brightness in Indian poetry.