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HISTORY OF MALABAR :DISCUSSIONS.

The samurais of japan were also a warrior community. Is this thread about Japan ?

The Left most sword is a narrow sword with a broad tip. The kind that cannot be put in a scabbard. Looks at "deathless", the one in the earlier pic is similar except the tip is more rounded. I have seen such swords in real life but I do not have pics of it right now.

3-thorin-cross-section-blades-sig.jpg


It made sense for cavalry to have curved sword since they moved fast, it made sense for infantry to have straight double edged sword. It has nothing to do with arab influence. Its just science at play.

Genetics have shown ceylonese are similar to Bengalis and biharis. Open a separate thread on this if you want to.



Genetically there is no difference between anyone but do not twist history to suite a bias or personal agenda.

Caste differentiation was very strong in kerala so formal caste intermingling was minimal. Any mix breeding would be informal. I would suspect the ezhavas to have greek or roman or arab blood more than nair. They are certainly a very good looking caste.
Are you sure?????
i think you are a castiest...For my eyes every Malayali groups look more or less equal(excluding some ST/Adivasi)....
 
Are you sure?????
i think you are a castiest...For my eyes every Malayali groups look more or less equal(excluding some ST/Adivasi)....

The rigid caste structure in kerala is well know to everybody. It is one of the most calcified in India. what is there to be confused ?

Just because I speak the truth, it does not make me a casteist :lol: ......... just an incorrigible honest guy. You on the other hand are trying too hard to make it sound like caste in kerla was a joke. Not even the mallu's here would believe you.
 
..but these stories and myths have no substantial proofs or evidence..we may came from different parts or source ,but the Modern Malayali groups(especially so called High castes) are largely intermixed one....Actually there is no notable difference between a Nair and a Syrian Christian of Kerala....
for eg-Knanaya Christians of Kerala are believed to be from Syria....But they look exactly like that of other Malayali group,not Syrians...

Not entirely connected to this, but more on a general note, the history of Kerala, of Tamilakam in general, has seen remarkable progress. On re-visiting it after a gap of forty years, it came as a shock to see how far historical understanding of the mediaeval ages has progressed. A partial list of authors and historians who have contributed would include, always keeping K. A. Nilakantha Sastri's seminal work apart, the works of K. Kailasapathi, K. Sivathambi, Kamil Zvelebil, George L. Hart III, R. Champakalakshmi, M. G. S. Narayanan, Rajan Gurukkal and Kesavan Veluthat.
 
@kalanirnay
Tharakkan paraayis are Christians...They are mostly in the Northern part of Cherthala thaluk....very very wealthy and influential sects...
I've heard about tharakan's only. Will be interesting if you ppl know about Villarvattom kings.
 
The rigid caste structure in kerala is well know to everybody. It is one of the most calcified in India. what is there to be confused ?

Just because I speak the truth, it does not make me a casteist :lol: ......... just an incorrigible honest guy. You on the other hand are trying too hard to make it sound like caste in kerla was a joke. Not even the mallu's here would believe you.

I have to agree, what we face is indeed a very rigid, inflexible caste structure. It is better to confront this reality rather than try to brush it under the carpet.
 
The Dutch Records in the archives of the Tamil Nadu government gives details of the many battles in which Nair soldiers participated - on the side of the Zamorin and on the side of the Cochin Maharaja. Dutch general Van Goens tells about the war with the Portuguese and how the Nairs acquitted themselves well in the trenches ‘with fairly good grace in the heat of the tropical day.’

2006-Aug2BU-240a.jpg


Several British writers, however described the Nair style of fighting as one that lacked discipline. Sir Hector Munro, a Scotsman who was ninth Commander-in-Chief of India, who fought against the Nayars with the Madras Army in 1761 said: "They lurk behind sand banks and bushes, then they appear like bees..they point their guns and fire them well.” The losses were said to have been heavy on the British side and it was recorded that a single Nair soldier killed 5 British Highlanders in a lightning blitz.

Nairs_foreign.jpg


Pyrard de Laval, a French navigator, who spent 10 years in southern India in the early 1600s called the Nairs "the best soldiers in the world and exceptionally agile." William Logan, the famous Scottish chronicler, who was collector of Malabar and lived there for 20 years, also mentions that the 'Nayars were excellent in skirmishing" and that they would have had more success had they fought as guerillas.

The image of the raging Nairs was captured well by Christopher Fuller in his book “The Nayars Today”. In the chapter "The Nobles of Malabar", he evocatively wrote about the military role "Honour and Gallantry! Love and battle! My sword and my mistress! These were their devices, and they were ticklish sticklers for the point of honour (as quoted in the Census of 1901, Cochin). "...The great majority of the Nayars probably spent time under arms. The armies were raised by the kings and the chiefs (naduvazhis) and were mostly engaged in fighting each other."

pazasshitomb.jpg


Rao Bahadur G. Gopalan Nair, who was Deputy Collector of Malabar in the 1900s. wrote a book on the Wynad hill tribes, he wrote that the name Kurichiyan was given by the Kottayam Rajas because of their great archery skills. The term used is 'kuri-vechavan - one who aims'). It is suggested that the Kurichiyans belonged to a class of Nairs called Theke Kari Nair from Venad or Travancore and they were brought by the Kottayam Raja to fight the Vedar tribes. After the battles, their kinsfolk did not accept them back and they settled in the hills of Wynad. They apparently still follow Nair traditions in their life, death and other ritual cycles.

Warfare was the chief occupation of the Nairs. For over two thousand years they were able to maintain the integrity and security of their land and culture unlike the rest of India. The only race to have decisively defeated the Nairs are the British. The British colluded with the neo-converts to suppress these inherently rebellious traditional warlords and succeeded... The British Army (not native infantry) performed poorly against the Nair warlords....the Nairs considered it below their dignity to serve under the British and hence most Nair history has been blacked out from Indian records. The toll the Nairs took on the British is much higher than any recorded in India of those times.

ed44e372b55dcb3f68344b03ff27f52f.jpg


The official British policy was to “Break the Nair community to break the backbone of Kerala.” The destruction of the fighting spirit of the Nairs became a political necessity for the British. Kalaripayattu was outlawed in the Malabar kingdoms in 1793. The British, who had earlier registered the Nairs as a martial race, delisted them for rebelling against them in Travancore in 1804 and 1809. The native Travanacore Nair army, comprising 1500 soldiers, was disbanded and the Nairs were forbidden from carrying arms in public. At the same time, other castes in Kerala were recruited in large numbers to become the native infantry for the British.

The titular suffixes of Nair warriors of that period were: Achan, Arimbrar, Chempakaraman, Kaimal, Kurup, Nair, Nambiar, Mannatiar, Manavalar, Menokki, Muttan, Panikkar, Patiar, Perimbrar, Pillai, Tampi, Taravanar. Unnithan and Valiyathan.

By this time, however, the Nairs were already losing their fiefdoms and political power, after being overwhelmed by Marthanda Varma, who ruled Travancore from 1729 to 1758. Marthanda Varma himself began recruiting a foreign force - the Nayakas of Madurai for his army to overrun the smaller kingdoms of southern Kerala.
 
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The samurais of japan were also a warrior community. Is this thread about Japan ?

The samurai were not neighbours of the Nairs.

The point being that such warrior communities were not reserved or exclusive to Kerala but existed in other parts of the south, in exactly the same feudatory relationship to the king, as in Kerala. It is a common phenomenon, not one unique to Kerala.

The Left most sword is a narrow sword with a broad tip. The kind that cannot be put in a scabbard. Looks at "deathless", the one in the earlier pic is similar except the tip is more rounded. I have seen such swords in real life but I do not have pics of it right now.

These are variations of a khadga. There are examples of khadgas with precisely that outswelling near the tip, and there is no problem in sheathing them. The width of the sheath has to be as broad as the broadest part of the blade. Gorkha kukris are similarly of greater width in the middle of the blade than the tip or the part nearest the hilt. They too have perfectly useful sheaths, but there are protocols to drawing blades from such sheaths.

3-thorin-cross-section-blades-sig.jpg


It made sense for cavalry to have curved sword since they moved fast, it made sense for infantry to have straight double edged sword. It has nothing to do with arab influence. Its just science at play.

Sadly, no. It was nothing to do with cavalry or infantry, but the effect of a stroke with a curved blade being more than of a stroke with a straight blade. It was merely a coincidence that the widespread use of curved blades also coincided with the military prevalence of the cavalry over the infantry, a superiority due entirely to the introduction of the stirrup, and which had nothing to do with the swords they carried. There were subsequent overwhelmingly effective cavalry forces which used the sword minimally, using a double-curved bow in preference.

The reference to the cavalry needing to have a curved sword because it moved fast is baffling.

Genetics have shown ceylonese are similar to Bengalis and biharis. Open a separate thread on this if you want to.

It is sufficient to refute the silly statement made that the Ceylonese might have been descended from Nairs.

Genetically there is no difference between anyone but do not twist history to suite a bias or personal agenda.

Caste differentiation was very strong in kerala so formal caste intermingling was minimal. Any mix breeding would be informal. I would suspect the ezhavas to have greek or roman or arab blood more than nair. They are certainly a very good looking caste.
 
I have to agree, what we face is indeed a very rigid, inflexible caste structure. It is better to confront this reality rather than try to brush it under the carpet.

Today its not so rigid any-more. It used to be, which is why it is certain that caste intermingling was minimal.
 
Sir Hector Munro, a Scotsman who was ninth Commander-in-Chief of India, who fought against the Nayars with the Madras Army in 1761 said: "They lurk behind sand banks and bushes, then they appear like bees..they point their guns and fire them well.” The losses were said to have been heavy on the British side and it was recorded that a single Nair soldier killed 5 British Highlanders in a lightning blitz.

Source: HISTORY OF MALABAR :DISCUSSIONS. | Page 10

Are you aware of the firing rate of a matchlock musket?
 
Thats not true.
I think tamilians and malayalees get along well.
Dont judge Kerala and Tamilnadu by its politicians.
True that .. its just the politicians playing around with the sentiments of the people .

I live in a city bordering Tamilnadu and Kerela we have friendly and cozy neighbours from Kerela :azn: . too bad that our bars are now getting crowded :(
 
The samurai were not neighbours of the Nairs.

The point being that such warrior communities were not reserved or exclusive to Kerala but existed in other parts of the south, in exactly the same feudatory relationship to the king, as in Kerala. It is a common phenomenon, not one unique to Kerala.

No one claimed it is. The nair's were unique to kerala. A Straw-man argument. LOL.

These are variations of a khadga. There are examples of khadgas with precisely that outswelling near the tip, and there is no problem in sheathing them. The width of the sheath has to be as broad as the broadest part of the blade. Gorkha kukris are similarly of greater width in the middle of the blade than the tip or the part nearest the hilt. They too have perfectly useful sheaths, but there are protocols to drawing blades from such sheaths.

3-thorin-cross-section-blades-sig.jpg

As I have quoted in my earlier post, Nair's never used to sheath their sword. Most times they used to carry it in open display.

Sadly, no. It was nothing to do with cavalry or infantry, but the effect of a stroke with a curved blade being more than of a stroke with a straight blade. It was merely a coincidence that the widespread use of curved blades also coincided with the military prevalence of the cavalry over the infantry, a superiority due entirely to the introduction of the stirrup, and which had nothing to do with the swords they carried. There were subsequent overwhelmingly effective cavalry forces which used the sword minimally, using a double-curved bow in preference.

The reference to the cavalry needing to have a curved sword because it moved fast is baffling.

That is your opinion. Sadly most sword experts in the world would disagree with you.

1. Single edge curved swords is good to slash and run.
2. It does not get stuck in your victim when you are moving fast, thus cause you to loose your sword.
3. It does not bounce back when it hits hard objects and hurt the rider as he is doing two things at the same time.
4. straight sword do not easily break free of the victim causing either a broken wrist or dismounting the rider when the horse is running at full pace.

The curved sword came into its own during the “desultory” encounters after the charge, for which a slashing sword was best suited.

1. The Japanese curved sword - used for horseback
2. 1796 Light cavalry sabre
3. Scimitars used by turk cavalry, Rajputs on horsebacks etc.

It is sufficient to refute the silly statement made that the Ceylonese might have been descended from Nairs.

That was a joke, pointing out the obvious flaw in the assumption.

Source: HISTORY OF MALABAR :DISCUSSIONS. | Page 10

Are you aware of the firing rate of a matchlock musket?

Does it say that all 5 were killed by a matchlock musket ? Nair's carried more then one arms or even one gun. Refer to picture posted earlier. A well trained Kalari exert armed with a sword, dagger, musket could do the job as described by a british writer. No me.
 
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No one claimed it is. The nair's were unique to kerala.

And the social arrangement was common to other parts of the south. Nothing unique about it.

As I have quoted in my earlier post, Nair's never used to sheath their sword. Most times they used to carry it in open display.

That has nothing to do with the shape of the sword, as you wrongly assumed. So quoting the fact, and pretending that there was no conclusion drawn from it and presented as authentic is weasel speak.

That is your opinion. Sadly most sword experts in the world would disagree with you.

Sadly, it seems likely that 'most sword experts in the world' equates to one opinionated poster.

1. Single edge curved swords is good to slash and run.
2. It does not get stuck in your victim when you are moving fast, thus cause you to loose your sword.
3. It does not bounce back when it hits hard objects and hurt the rider as he is doing two things at the same time.
4. straight sword do not easily break free of the victim causing either a broken wrist or dismounting the rider when the horse is running at full pace.

The difference between a curved sword and a straight sword has to do with mechanics, not with these fanciful statements.

1. Why should a straight sword not be good to slash and run?
2. A sword can get 'stuck' in the opponent only if the point is used, not if the edge is used. Whether straight-edged or curved is irrelevant.
3. If it does not bounce back, what does it do? Break? Cut through? If the latter, then that is the justification, isn't it, rather than any other?
4. Why not? Unless it is used for a thrust, in which case a curved sword will also not easily break free of the opponent.

You might like to study what fencing was all about before doing cut and paste jobs

The curved sword came into its own during the “desultory” encounters after the charge, for which a slashing sword was best suited.

Really?

desultory
adjective
  1. lacking a plan, purpose, or enthusiasm.
Are you sure you know what you are saying?

1. The Japanese curved sword - used for horseback
2. 1796 Light cavalry sabre
3. Scimitars used by turk cavalry, Rajputs on horsebacks etc.

No point in arguing with someone without the basics.

That was a joke, pointing out the obvious flaw in the assumption.

And it was very funny. By your standards.
 
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One of the more famous troopers of kerala was the Thiruvathamkoor Nair Pattalam (Travancore State Army), also known as the Nair Brigade and which served as the Maharaja’s personal guard.

phgall_206.jpg


This was the brigade that trounced the Dutch forces at Colachel ending their Indian dream and later defeated Tipu’s army at Nedumkotta. The Nair Brigade merged into the Indian Army after Independence to become the 9th Battalion of the Madras Regiment.

In 1965, the Nair battalion fought the famous Battle of Barki and captured Barka-Kalan and Ichogil Bund in Pakistan.

The Nair Brigade - 9th battalion of the Madras Regiment- after the famous battle of Ichhogil Bund on Sept. 22, 1965 under the command of Lt. Col. B.K. Satyan in which 120 Pakistani troopers were killed in hand-to-hand combat for the loss of 27 Indians.

nair_brigade.gif


International explorer and writer Richard Burton (who translated the Arabian Nights and the Kamasutra) wrote about the Nairs in the 1850s. “The Nairs are rather a fair and comely race, with neat features, clean limbs, and decidedly a high caste look. They shave the head all over, excepting one long thin lock of hair, which is knotted at the end, and allowed to lie flat upon the crown....Their arms were sword and shield, spear and matchlock, with a long knife or dagger suspended behind the back by a hook attached to a leathern waistband. Being now deprived of their favourite pastimes —fighting and plundering — they have become cultivators of the soil, and disdain not to bend over the plough, an occupation formerly confined to their slaves. And yet to the present day they retain much of their old military character, and with it the licentiousness which in Eastern countries belongs to the profession of arms. In fact," war, wine, and women " appear to be the three ingredients of their summum honum, and forced abstinence from the first, only increases the ardour of their affection for the last two.”

Akkathucharnanayar.jpg


However after the British crackdown on Nairs - as a distinct soldiering community began to lose most of their warlike characteristics by the middle of the 1800s. After the passage of many generations, they became increasingly attached to the land as agricultural landlords and the Malabar Manual of 1901 notes that “the Nayar is more and more becoming a family man. Comparatively few of them nowadays even engage in hunting” and Captain Heber Drury reported even earlier (in 1858): “ The mild and delicate looking Nayar now prefers a quite swing in the verandah or a lounge under a tree, chewing a betel.”

Today the community has moved away to all other fields except warfare. Such is the power of time.

Final images of king of Cochin with Nair soldiers.

prevost2.jpg
 
And the social arrangement was common to other parts of the south. Nothing unique about it.

LOL. I repeat Nairs were unique to "kerala". This is thread is about kerala ...clutching at straws ? :lol: ....... why such burn ?

That has nothing to do with the shape of the sword, as you wrongly assumed. So quoting the fact, and pretending that there was no conclusion drawn from it and presented as authentic is weasel speak.

Sadly, it seems likely that 'most sword experts in the world' equates to one opinionated poster.

The difference between a curved sword and a straight sword has to do with mechanics, not with these fanciful statements.

1. Why should a straight sword not be good to slash and run?
2. A sword can get 'stuck' in the opponent only if the point is used, not if the edge is used. Whether straight-edged or curved is irrelevant.
3. If it does not bounce back, what does it do? Break? Cut through? If the latter, then that is the justification, isn't it, rather than any other?
4. Why not? Unless it is used for a thrust, in which case a curved sword will also not easily break free of the opponent.

You might like to study what fencing was all about before doing cut and paste jobs

LOL. I take it you are the fencing champion of India ? :cheesy:

There is something called a scientific temperament, body mechanics. There was a reason why the single edged curved sword evolved out of the double edged straight sword. You are free to believe these things happen WITHOUT a good reason. I choose to believe otherwise.

desultory
adjective
  1. lacking a plan, purpose, or enthusiasm.
Are you sure you know what you are saying?

Yes, a charge aimed at slashing and cutting everything in sight.

No point in arguing with someone without the basics.

I agree.

And it was very funny. By your standards.

So was all your strawmen. But that is just you being you.
 
The Dutch Records in the archives of the Tamil Nadu government gives details of the many battles in which Nair soldiers participated - on the side of the Zamorin and on the side of the Cochin Maharaja. Dutch general Van Goens tells about the war with the Portuguese and how the Nairs acquitted themselves well in the trenches ‘with fairly good grace in the heat of the tropical day.’

2006-Aug2BU-240a.jpg


Several British writers, however described the Nair style of fighting as one that lacked discipline. Sir Hector Munro, a Scotsman who was ninth Commander-in-Chief of India, who fought against the Nayars with the Madras Army in 1761 said: "They lurk behind sand banks and bushes, then they appear like bees..they point their guns and fire them well.” The losses were said to have been heavy on the British side and it was recorded that a single Nair soldier killed 5 British Highlanders in a lightning blitz.

Nairs_foreign.jpg


Pyrard de Laval, a French navigator, who spent 10 years in southern India in the early 1600s called the Nairs "the best soldiers in the world and exceptionally agile." William Logan, the famous Scottish chronicler, who was collector of Malabar and lived there for 20 years, also mentions that the 'Nayars were excellent in skirmishing" and that they would have had more success had they fought as guerillas.

The image of the raging Nairs was captured well by Christopher Fuller in his book “The Nayars Today”. In the chapter "The Nobles of Malabar", he evocatively wrote about the military role "Honour and Gallantry! Love and battle! My sword and my mistress! These were their devices, and they were ticklish sticklers for the point of honour (as quoted in the Census of 1901, Cochin). "...The great majority of the Nayars probably spent time under arms. The armies were raised by the kings and the chiefs (naduvazhis) and were mostly engaged in fighting each other."

pazasshitomb.jpg


Rao Bahadur G. Gopalan Nair, who was Deputy Collector of Malabar in the 1900s. wrote a book on the Wynad hill tribes, he wrote that the name Kurichiyan was given by the Kottayam Rajas because of their great archery skills. The term used is 'kuri-vechavan - one who aims'). It is suggested that the Kurichiyans belonged to a class of Nairs called Theke Kari Nair from Venad or Travancore and they were brought by the Kottayam Raja to fight the Vedar tribes. After the battles, their kinsfolk did not accept them back and they settled in the hills of Wynad. They apparently still follow Nair traditions in their life, death and other ritual cycles.

Warfare was the chief occupation of the Nairs. For over two thousand years they were able to maintain the integrity and security of their land and culture unlike the rest of India. The only race to have decisively defeated the Nairs are the British. The British colluded with the neo-converts to suppress these inherently rebellious traditional warlords and succeeded... The British Army (not native infantry) performed poorly against the Nair warlords....the Nairs considered it below their dignity to serve under the British and hence most Nair history has been blacked out from Indian records. The toll the Nairs took on the British is much higher than any recorded in India of those times.

ed44e372b55dcb3f68344b03ff27f52f.jpg


The official British policy was to “Break the Nair community to break the backbone of Kerala.” The destruction of the fighting spirit of the Nairs became a political necessity for the British. Kalaripayattu was outlawed in the Malabar kingdoms in 1793. The British, who had earlier registered the Nairs as a martial race, delisted them for rebelling against them in Travancore in 1804 and 1809. The native Travanacore Nair army, comprising 1500 soldiers, was disbanded and the Nairs were forbidden from carrying arms in public. At the same time, other castes in Kerala were recruited in large numbers to become the native infantry for the British.

The titular suffixes of Nair warriors of that period were: Achan, Arimbrar, Chempakaraman, Kaimal, Kurup, Nair, Nambiar, Mannatiar, Manavalar, Menokki, Muttan, Panikkar, Patiar, Perimbrar, Pillai, Tampi, Taravanar. Unnithan and Valiyathan.

By this time, however, the Nairs were already losing their fiefdoms and political power, after being overwhelmed by Marthanda Varma, who ruled Travancore from 1729 to 1758. Marthanda Varma himself began recruiting a foreign force - the Nayakas of Madurai for his army to overrun the smaller kingdoms of southern Kerala.

Kalari system is almost extinct.Two types Vadakkan mura (Northern style)
and thekkan mura (southern style) were prevailed in kerala in early times.
Thekkan style is extincted.Only vadakkan style is still existed in some parts.
 
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