High cost of Indian Mirage 2000 fighter upgrade causing a rethink

[dingyibvs]

Reading these few sentences alone, was enough to understand how reliable this article is!
The author even confirms that GoI officially says, the deal is under negotiation and then puts his complete claim only on basis of "informed sources". More interstingly is, that all figures he stated of M2K, Rafale and F16 are wrong and in Euro, instead of Dollar, while he gave the correct figure for Mig upgrade even in Dollars!

Lets put it straight :

- according to officials the deal is under negotiations and could be fixed, or even signed during the visit of president Sarkozy

- Mirage upgrade by all former reports, is said to cost €1.5 billion Euro, or around $2 billon Dollar, which means around €30 million Euro, or $40 million Dollar each

- Rafale and F16 costs more than €30 - 35 million Euros


But it's funny to see all the pro EF articles when British defmin was in India and now when French president comes, all the Dassault bashing articles are coming too.


P.S. Rockstar and I talked about this upgrade in the IAF discussion thread recently too and this is how our M2K-5 could look like:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1307004-post1041.html

Doesn't really change the fact that the upgrades shouldn't cost more than 15 million euros. India should really start spending more money building their own stuff, it'll stimulate local industries and save a ton of money from your defense budget.

 

[GORKHALI]

thank GOd we didnt chose french avionics for JF-17..JF-17 upgrade cost per aircraft was 32 million(50 aircrfat for 1.6bn)

BEst option is this replace them with Rafale and get EF or f-18 by MRCA

hehehe

 

[khatarnak gunda]

thank GOd we didnt chose french avionics for JF-17..JF-17 upgrade cost per aircraft was 32 million(50 aircrfat for 1.6bn)

BEst option is this replace them with Rafale and get EF or f-18 by MRCA

do you really think you didn't choose french avionics?

buddy, actually, its other way around, french refused you to give avionics....

 

[luckyyy]

these mirage are already 20 years old , even if upgrade get negotiated it will take 6-7 years to fully upgrade all...there after the aircraft will left with atmost 10-15 years of service..

does spanding 40ml per plane is worth for just flying them for another 10-15 years..

don't the LCA will be as good as the upgraded mirage in next 6-7 years...

i also couldn't understand why IAF not going for israeli proposal to upgrade these mirage at half a cost..?

or why can't DRDO can take up the uograde by their own..?

or is there any contrect clouse which mandate that only the menufecturer can do this..?

 

[Indian-Devil]

I think its better to choose manufacturer for upgrades as they know the real how to for those fighter planes. But $40 million is too high a price for a single aircraft upgrade and that too without new powerplant. If French president can lower the cost then its a good deal for sure.
And if upgrade, with current cost, is taking 4-5 yrs its better to order LCA MK2 in that price and that will be completly new Aircraft, available for next 2-3 decades & local too, we can upgrade it further for avoinics , armaments , radar etc.. We can use M2K in same configuration for this decade and later replace them with MRCA/AMCA.

 

[Imran Khan]

phir wohi drama buy this buy that refale f-16in f-18 eufighter lol are you guys kids wanna buy jets like toys????? grow up in real its not work baby.

 

[Rafael]

haha!! Its been ages now since this topi drama is going on

I hope my grand children are lucky enough to see this MRCA deal materalize

 

[rockstarIN]

haha!! Its been ages now since this topi drama is going on

I hope my grand children are lucky enough to see this MRCA deal materalize

The talk for this deal itself is doing alot for India, even if we scrap it, no worries...

 

[MST]

Doesn't really change the fact that the upgrades shouldn't cost more than 15 million euros. India should really start spending more money building their own stuff, it'll stimulate local industries and save a ton of money from your defense budget.

Agreed. This is the end goal and we have started but it will take another decade or two for this to happen across the board.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Well I read this thread although not thoroughly but postings of senior members ... mostly are in favor of buying new jets instead of upgrading of M-2Ks ... where as price which I come to know through this thread for UPG 1 Pcs is min 15 mil to max 45 mil US $s ... well if we take it on higher side and we assume 45 mil / Pcs and you say lets take Rafael against UPG then how much a Rafael cost ??? ... so far about its price I come to know with the same forum in a thread of MMRCA some 1 mentioned the Price is 170 Mil US $ for Brazil and that was for may be 36 Jets ... I don't remember the exact qty but that is the case ... Here I want to know how this could be possible to replace purchasing of newbie instead of UPG of some thing far more trust worthy and war proven and with technical facilities available and all experience with it ... Here I used possible which I think appropriate in the manner of all above and above all price difference ...
Looking forward for a kind and just response ...
Thanks.

 

[SQ8]

@Rockstar..
out of that 11 crore.. how much is spent on getting the pilot operational?
If for eg.. an operational pilot costs 9 crore..then the training required to put him into a new airframe may be worth that initial investment.


Unfortunately.. the MMRCA has become too political.. and the IAF will have to put its foot down at sometime to ensure its op req arent degraded due to a political influence in the decision..
Whoever win this..has a lot at stake..
a million or so have already been spent in the initial cost for making the pitch..
The competitors are envisioning a lot of profit..which is why....some like the British..are now playing dirty media wars.
After the ATLC in dubai..the french made a controversial announcement as well..
this is just the Eurofighter group hitting back.

 

[sancho]

Doesn't really change the fact that the upgrades shouldn't cost more than 15 million euros. India should really start spending more money building their own stuff, it'll stimulate local industries and save a ton of money from your defense budget.

Actually the fact that LCA is so delayed is a reason why we have to make older fighters as capable as possible. The upgrade is costly, but these fighters will remain in service fo a long time and and has to be the frontline fighters till MMRCAs LCA MK2s... are inducted.

these mirage are already 20 years old , even if upgrade get negotiated it will take 6-7 years to fully upgrade all...there after the aircraft will left with atmost 10-15 years of service..

Why should it take so long to upgrade 51 fighters? Mig 29 upgrades is expected to be done in 2013.

 

[!!craft!!]

any details about the upgrade?.. they have got to put something special in it to charge so much

 

[rockstarIN]

[Q

UOTE=santro;1312587]@Rockstar..
out of that 11 crore.. how much is spent on getting the pilot operational?
If for eg.. an operational pilot costs 9 crore..then the training required to put him into a new airframe may be worth that initial investment.

Im not sure, i think that is the total cost to become fair in jet fighter.( Now using Mig-21, which too reach Mach-2), Do you really think to put a fairly experinced jet pilot into a new age fighter need extensive training?, I dont think so coz new fighters are more computerised and quite easy to fly compared to 3rd gerneration jets.

Unfortunately.. the MMRCA has become too political.. and the IAF will have to put its foot down at sometime to ensure its op req arent degraded due to a political influence in the decision..
Whoever win this..has a lot at stake..
a million or so have already been spent in the initial cost for making the pitch..
The competitors are envisioning a lot of profit..which is why....some like the British..are now playing dirty media wars.
After the ATLC in dubai..the french made a controversial announcement as well..
this is just the Eurofighter group hitting back.

[/QUOTE]

It is always late here but it has its own adventages being late, at least to lure these guys for other political as well as other adventages.

IAF already showed its reservation about operating US jets coz of its past records and strings attached with it.

 

[luckyyy]

Why should it take so long to upgrade 51 fighters? Mig 29 upgrades is expected to be done in 2013.

now these defence deals are not like in past that you sign the deal ,pay and done...
it's a long complicated wayout now due to 30% offset requirments..

take for example the MIG-29 upgrade deal....
the deal was negotiated/signed in march 2008 only , once everything soute out , the IAF planed 500cr to setup a dedicated mig-29 repair facility , so it takes 2 years to put everything in place , now today IAF has a dedicated mig-29 repair facility at nasik where upgrade will be carried out ..
but still the first upgraded MIG-29 from russia has not came coz of a delay in the IAF finalising the ‘ furnished equipment.’ Under the terms of the contract, the IAF had to indicate to RSK MiG the list of equipment and their actual physical dimensions that they want fitted on the upgraded MiG-29’s. Many of these items were to be sourced or integrated by Indian companies under 30% offset obligations..

out of 6 , the first upgraded mig-29 will came around july 2011 and thereafter at home every year 14 aircrafts wil be upgraded , so fully upgrade 54 single seat fighters and 8 trainers is not expected before july 2015....roughly 7 years..

same will be the case with mirage , or may be more coz mirage upgrade will be having more then double the offset obligations...

The Hindu : National : MiG-29 upgrade programme delayed

that's why spanding 40ml per plane is not worth for just flying them for another 10-15 years..

LCA will be as good as the upgraded mirage in next 6-7 years...