Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions

[Vijyes Yechury]

It depends upon the type of reactor some uses only 20% enriched uranium others use near weapons grade a reactor running on 20%
Wont need more than 200 to 250kg a reactors
Running on near weapons grade might need 1/3rd or 1/4th of this. He is talking of natural uranium (1 tone of natural uranium contains about 7kgs of u235 the rest is largely u238. Which is not fissile we can mine and refine tens of tones per day if we want) so in simple words. Roughly a reactor like this requires about three bombs worth of fissile material(u235) a mid tech implosion type fission ball requires around 25 kg of u235 roughly
Very roughly speaking.
We have substantial amount of fissile material for subs that won't be the problem. But i don't think we can afford or need a nuclear powered sub.

The point here is that you have to store 20 years of uranium in the submarine before you start the reactor itself. This is because refueling will require submarine to be cut apart which is a difficult process. So, each SSBN submarine will require 40-60 tons of natural uranium initially for commissioning (2-3 tons per year or about 15-20 kg U235 a year). Does Pakistan have the ability to get 300 ton Natural uranium for 6 SSBN submarines? The 2-3 ton usage is for SSBN which stay underwater and move slowly without any patrol duty. For SSN submarine, the requirement will be higher due to higher power requirement for patrolling. Each SSN may need twice the uranium as SSBN and hence the requirement of Natural Uranium will ~100 tons for 20 years. For 6 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 600 tons worth of natural uranium to be directly stashed in submarines initially.

The added problem is that the Uranium used up in these PWR reactors will have high levels of Pu240 and hence not fit to be made into Pu239 plutonium bombs, unlike the PHWR ones in Kahuta. So, diverting large quantity of uranium may not be possible without shutting down nuclear bomb manufacturing.

Price is never the problem as long as the items are produced in the country. Since none is willing to give nuclear technology, Pakistan will have to get its own reactors and other items. So, the cost will be internal only. Uranium quantity is the main issue that minor Uranium producers like Pakistan will face.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

The point here is that you have to store 20 years of uranium in the submarine before you start the reactor itself. This is because refueling will require submarine to be cut apart which is a difficult process. So, each SSBN submarine will require 40-60 tons of natural uranium initially for commissioning (2-3 tons per year or about 15-20 kg U235 a year). Does Pakistan have the ability to get 300 ton Natural uranium for 6 SSBN submarines? The 2-3 ton usage is for SSBN which stay underwater and move slowly without any patrol duty. For SSN submarine, the requirement will be higher due to higher power requirement for patrolling. Each SSN may need twice the uranium as SSBN and hence the requirement of Natural Uranium will ~100 tons for 20 years. For 6 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 600 tons worth of natural uranium to be directly stashed in submarines initially.

The added problem is that the Uranium used up in these PWR reactors will have high levels of Pu240 and hence not fit to be made into Pu239 plutonium bombs, unlike the PHWR ones in Kahuta. So, diverting large quantity of uranium may not be possible without shutting down nuclear bomb manufacturing.

Price is never the problem as long as the items are produced in the country. Since none is willing to give nuclear technology, Pakistan will have to get its own reactors and other items. So, the cost will be internal only. Uranium quantity is the main issue that minor Uranium producers like Pakistan will face.

A nuclear sub does not use natural uranium at least 20% enriched uranium natural uranium contains about .7 that is point seven % u235
3 bombs worth about 60 to 70 kg of u235 is enough for about 25 year of operation you calculations are for a small natural uranium candu type reactor eg cirus kushab 1 etc.
Please first learn somthing about the subject.
50 to 60 tons of u235 will destroy a whole country the critical mass of u235 is 52kg this is about 1200 critical masses.

I may be wrong though. Because i know very little about marine nuclear propulsion

 

[Vijyes Yechury]

A nuclear sub does not use natural uranium at least 20% enriched uranium natural uranium contains about .7 that is point seven % u235
3 bombs worth about 60 to 70 kg of u235 is enough for about 25 year of operation you calculations are for a small natural uranium candu type reactor eg cirus kushab 1 etc.
Please first learn somthing about the subject.
50 to 60 tons of u235 will destroy a whole country the critical mass of u235 is 52kg this is about 1200 critical masses.

I may be wrong though. Because i know very little about marine nuclear propulsion

I am speaking of natural uranium with 0.71% U235, not enriched uranium. In terms of enriched uranium, the SSN annual requirement will be about 80-100kg of 40% enriched Uranium which has 32-40kg of U235 (enrichment 40%). This amounts to roughly 4-6 tons of natural uranium annually with each ton having 7.1kg U235. For SSBN, you can reduce it to half.

Mathematically:
Annual consumption of :
SSN -- 40% enriched 90kg -- 0.4x90 = 36kg U235 -- 36/7.1 = ~ roughly, 5ton natural Uranium
SSBN-- 40% enriched 45kg -- 0.4x45 = 18kg U235 -- 18/7.1 = ~ roughly, 2.5ton natural Uranium

One time loading of Uranium = 20 years worth consumption. So,
SSN = 5x20years = 100ton natural Uranium --- 90x20 = 1.8ton 40% enriched Uranium
SSBN = 2.55x20years = 50ton natural Uranium --- 45x20 = 0.9ton 40% enriched Uranium

I was telling you in natural uranium terms so that it will be easy for you to make a comparison of Pakistani annual Uranium mining of 30-40tons to the requirement of 100ton per SSN. Since mined Uranium is natural Uranium, I chose to convert the enriched uranium requirement to natural uranium equivalent. For 1 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 2.5-3 years worth of mined Uranium.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

I am speaking of natural uranium with 0.71% U235, not enriched uranium. In terms of enriched uranium, the SSN annual requirement will be about 80-100kg of 40% enriched Uranium which has 32-40kg of U235 (enrichment 40%). This amounts to roughly 4-6 tons of natural uranium annually with each ton having 7.1kg U235. For SSBN, you can reduce it to half.

Mathematically:
Annual consumption of :
SSN -- 40% enriched 90kg -- 0.4x90 = 36kg U235 -- 36/7.1 = ~ roughly, 5ton natural Uranium
SSBN-- 40% enriched 45kg -- 0.4x45 = 18kg U235 -- 18/7.1 = ~ roughly, 2.5ton natural Uranium

One time loading of Uranium = 20 years worth consumption. So,
SSN = 5x20years = 100ton natural Uranium --- 90x20 = 1.8ton 40% enriched Uranium
SSBN = 2.55x20years = 50ton natural Uranium --- 45x20 = 0.9ton 40% enriched Uranium

I was telling you in natural uranium terms so that it will be easy for you to make a comparison of Pakistani annual Uranium mining of 30-40tons to the requirement of 100ton per SSN. Since mined Uranium is natural Uranium, I chose to convert the enriched uranium requirement to natural uranium equivalent. For 1 SSN submarine, Pakistan will need 2.5-3 years worth of mined Uranium.

As i have told you we can mine alot more if we want to we can mine and refine tones per day we have
Large reserves of uranium and we have our own enrichment technology so don't worry. That will not be the problem. The problem is funds for such operations.

 

[LKJ86]

S26T for Thailand

 

[Dazzler]

Acquisition / Construction of HANGOR Class Submarines to begin in 2019

 

[Areesh]

Acquisition / Construction of HANGOR Class Submarines to begin in 2019

More likely construction

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

china ship /sub builder are over loaded
type 096 nuke sub is a hard work to do.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Pakistan Navy modernises Submarine capabilities

Pakistan has an enduring interest in boosting its submarine fleet capabilities to keep pace with the Indian Navy, a desire that has been further stoked by the first completed patrol of its rival’s 6,000 tonne nuclear-attack submarine INS Arihant in early November.

The Pakistani Navy presently operates five diesel-electric patrol submarines, a number which is considered to fall short of the service’s requirements. The submarine fleet readiness is also of concern, as the two Hashmat-class boats are nearly 40 years old and any one of the three Khalid (Agosta) class is expected to be sidelined for a major refit at any time until 2021.

However, the future appears to be much brighter with Pakistan acquiring eight Chinese-made S20 diesel-electric submarines based on the Yuan-class (Type 039A-series) design, with the first four boats to be built by China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) and deliveries commencing to the Pakistan Navy from 2022. The remainder will be built in Pakistan by the Karachi Shipbuilding and Engineering Works (KSEW), with the boats in service by around 2028..

In terms of general appearance, the S20 design exhibits some of the physical features of the Russian Kilo-class design including a teardrop-shaped hull with a distinctive ‘hump’ and large fin, although the stern resembles the earlier Song (Type 039)-class. However, it is believed that the S20 lacks many of the advanced features of the Type-039A, although CSIC stands ready to incorporate options should there be a request.

According to CSIC, the S20 platforms are fully indigenous designs that exploit the company’s experience from developing the Yuan-class submarines, which were first launched at its Wuchang Shipyard in Wuhan in May 2004. These are expected to cost between $500-600 million each, with associated technology transfer as well as the establishment of a submarine training centre at KSEW.

Meanwhile Turkey’s STM has been contracted to perform modernisation work on the Khalid-class submarines, with updates including a new periscope and optronic mast, as well as a SharpEye Doppler radar.


https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2018/11/pakistan-navy-modernises-submarine-capabilities/

 

[FuturePAF]

The PN should step back from the current designs and look again at what is about to be fielded among the medium powers in the larger region.

The PN needs Subs that will serve for the next 40 years. Besides the Indian Navy's Scorpenes and SSBNs, the Australians are about to field the long endurance Shortfin Barracuda Class in a decades time, and the A26 From Saab will field 3 VLS tubes.

The standard A26 will be about the same tonnage as the subs Pakistan plans to get from China. The added tonnage for the 3 VLS tubes will be about 500 tons.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DABCMuMUMAAyuJz?format=jpg&name=large
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/swe_subscompare940.jpg?w=625

A Few months ago, here on PDF; we had this topic
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...clear-power-plant-a-third-way-forward.567489/
================
We need Qualitative Advantages, not just matching with current tech but fielding fewer numbers
we should look to add atleast three VLS tubes as in the A26 VL from SAAB
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....ww-hisutton-com-2018-08-21-18-38-45.jpg?w=625

It will give each sub Second Strike Capability (with a SLBM or SLCM or ASBM to knock out carriers blockading Karachi) as well as advanced antiship capabilities with long range Anti-Ship cruise missiles or even Ramjet CX-1 missiles.

The Shortfin Barracuda Should be studied because it is conventionally powered but claims to allow 70-90 days at sea submerged.

Also the Chinese "Third Way" Mini reactor may give the added leaverage to stay out longer or go faster when needed, or design in a pump jet to maximize noise reduction.
=============
the point is for 500-600 million dollar each, we should push to get the best tech we can put together as we are doing for the air force and the army.

We owe it to the sailors who will man these vessels and the people of Pakistan who are counting on it when deterrence is badly needed in our region.


Some more pictures of the A26
https://www.ptisidiastima.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Swe_A26_poster.jpg
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/saab_kockums_modelrange.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DABCMudVYAATY9T?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJBv7w2XoAAFer_.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/a26-ngu-image4.jpg

Some Pictures and Data on the Shortfin Barracuda
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zmDvvpSKa...N_SNA_French_Navy_Marine_Nationale_DCNS_1.jpg
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/images/Maritime/DCNS-Shortfin-Barracuda-closeup.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenc...arine#Shortfin_Barracuda_conventional_variant
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/maritime-antisub/1383-uncertainty-over-future-submarine-design

P.S. Perfecting a Design like this; with a small Nuclear Reactor as supplement to an Advanced long Endurance AIP; and large VLS Tubes. Pakistan can then make plans IF need be, to scale up the design and build SSBNs; Each with at least 6 VLS tubes each with 2500km missiles like the JL-1A but with 3 MIRV per missile; and then you have 18 warheads per sub and a modern Second Strike capability. With one on Constant patrol; you really keep the Indians and their ASW tied down.

Here is some data on the costs of Submarines
http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/submarines.html

If Pakistan can increase its budget from 5 Billion to 8 Billion It can get alot more for its money. The A26 is expected to cost 750 Million. If You add in the cost of the 3 VLS tubes, the large AIP System, and possibly the Nuclear Supplement you may be able to get 8 Subs at an average price of $1 Billion Each.

From $5 to 8 Billion; it could be a world of difference.

 

[Gryphon]

Navy to get eight new submarines

By Salman Siddiqui
Published: December 1, 2018

PHOTO: REUTERS

KARACHI: Pakistan in collaboration with China will manufacture eight submarines for its maritime force.

“The production will start in one to one-and-a-half-year time,” said Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works Project Director Commodore M Jahanzeb Ahsan at the IDEAS 2018, a four-day long event held at the Karachi Expo Centre.

“Half of the eight submarines of advanced version will be developed in China while the other half in Pakistan,” said Commodore Ahsan.
Pakistan and China developed understanding for the manufacturing of the submarines sometime in 2011, he said.

The top three countries with the highest number of submarines in the world are; North Korea with 86, China 73 and US 66, according to www.globalfirepower.com.

Navy to get eight new submarines | tribune.com.pk

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Official specs @Gryphon

 

[Ali_Baba]

A lot of money for not a lot of submarine. I was expecting something bigger and more capable given how much we are paying. More worrying, given that they are meant to form part of the 2nd strike capability for Pakistan nuclear deterrent... I was expecting a derivative of the Yuan class(bigger), not smaller... lets see.

 

[Gryphon]

Official specs @Gryphon

Got specs of PN Milgem/Type 054A? Any word on F-22P MLU?

 

[ziaulislam]

A lot of money for not a lot of submarine. I was expecting something bigger and more capable given how much we are paying. More worrying, given that they are meant to form part of the 2nd strike capability for Pakistan nuclear deterrent... I was expecting a derivative of the Yuan class(bigger), not smaller... lets see.

bigger than agosta 90b..pretty much what we expected