Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions

[ziaulislam]

Chinese diesel-electric and nuclear submarine force structure improvements over the past two
decades are striking. Figure 13 conveys a comparative Office of Naval Intelligence estimate
from 2009—and both Russian and Chinese designs have progressed since then. While China has
evidently not yet achieved acoustic parity on the nuclear front, the Shang and Jin vessels
represent a significant improvement over previous nuclear submarines. Jerry Hendrix estimates
that the improved Shang (not reflected in figure 1) is roughly analogous to the improved Los
Angeles or Akula II SSNs with respect to acoustic performance.94 It is possible that the more
recent Jin vessels have also benefited from derivative or related acoustic performance
improvements. Should China proceed as anticipated with development of a next-generation
type-095 SSN and/or type-096 SSGN, it will probably continue down the acoustic learning curve.
On the diesel-electric front the more recent Kilo and Yuan vessels appear generally comparable
to the Russian Lada (St. Petersburg)-class SSK, while the older Romeo, Kilo, and Ming SSKs exit
the active inventory. Acoustically, at 105-110 decibels the modern 636 Kilo has reportedly
achieved general equivalence with that of the improved Los Angeles SSNs. (By comparison, the
Virginia operates at about 95 decibels and ocean background at 90.95) Said differently, the
improved Shangs and Kilos in the Chinese inventory have achieved acoustic parity with mid-
1980s American SSN technology, while Russia’s new Yasen has an acoustic signature closer to
the current-generation American SSN fleet
View attachment 404384
98: Office of Naval Intelligence (2009) graphic, excerpted from O’Rourke, China Naval Modernization, pp. 14-15.
Acoustic propagation discussed at https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2015/02/sea-denial-analysis-of-csbasproposal.
html
https://cgsr.llnl.gov/content/assets/docs/Ellis_Game_On.pdf

on every front china has progressed rapidly in last 2 decades and especially in last decade, this is not surprisingly, given access to russian tech in 90s and highest R&D spending probably second only to US and many times more than rivals else where.
hence, one of the reasons why Pakistan has been leaning towards Chinese subs

 

[Penguin]

on every front china has progressed rapidly in last 2 decades and especially in last decade, this is not surprisingly, given access to russian tech in 90s and highest R&D spending probably second only to US and many times more than rivals else where.
hence, one of the reasons why Pakistan has been leaning towards Chinese subs

The discussion was not whether this was surprising. The discussion was to come to some idea of (progress on) noise levels. In which 90 dB is still assumed [there is no evidence] and then projected backward [via IF ... THEN ... ] across preceeding classes, in order to connect with known data for Romea Type 33.

 

[Penguin]

 

[Torbat Khan]

good to know that China is becoming in tech with Us

 

[Hassan Guy]

Still a bad deal because of the timeframe. A sub launched in 2000's, Pakistan still managed to aquire them 2 decades later. These subs should have already been inducted with construction ongoing.

The only reason we have a larger AIP fleet is because of indias delays not our success.

 

[Incog_nito]

I think only 2 should be manufactured in China, all rest 6 should be made in Pakistan.

 

[The Accountant]

Still a bad deal because of the timeframe. A sub launched in 2000's, Pakistan still managed to aquire them 2 decades later. These subs should have already been inducted with construction ongoing.

The only reason we have a larger AIP fleet is because of indias delays not our success.

If sub was launched in 2000 and we are procuring it now it does not means we are going to induct same sub systems ...

The way i see it the most probable reason of delay is customization specially in light of the fact that they will be babur 3 equiped at minimum

 

[niaz]

What Pakistan needs is a submarine in the 1,700 to 2,000 tons class. The sub needs to be able to dive to depths in excess of 350 meters, a submerged speed of about 20 knots, ability to remain submerged for more than 2 weeks without snorkelling and a range of about 6000 miles or more. It should also be exceptionally quiet and able to carry about a dozen anti-ship missiles & torpedoes.

As long as the Chinese subs meet these criteria, we have no cause to grumble.

Submarines endurance at sea is also limited by the storage space for the fuel and for the food and drinking water for the crew. Does Pak Navy have the assets to supply about 12 subs with the essentials on the high seas, say 3,000 miles away from base?

Because without this ability, PN would not be able to ambush IN vessels on the East coast of India.

 

[khanasifm]

I did not knew we have so many naval strategists and Mariane/sub engineering folks as members on this forum who brings decades of industry /warfare experience, p.n. should start listening otherwise they will loose

 

[The Accountant]

I dont think idea is to ambush east coast assets but to Anti access and area denial so as to ensure much bigger indian force do not attempt for naval blockade without significant losses ...

Furthermore i guess out of total only few submarines will be given strategic role where they had to move towards east ... but even in that case the role will be strategic attack from the east and not anti ship role ... that is my analysis as you cannot go offensive far from your base towards several time bigger and advance force
.. PN can only be agressive in near Pakistani EEZ so that it can get support from air and other assets ...

What do you think ?

What Pakistan needs is a submarine in the 1,700 to 2,000 tons class. The sub needs to be able to dive to depths in excess of 350 meters, a submerged speed of about 20 knots, ability to remain submerged for more than 2 weeks without snorkelling and a range of about 6000 miles or more. It should also be exceptionally quiet and able to carry about a dozen anti-ship missiles & torpedoes.

As long as the Chinese subs meet these criteria, we have no cause to grumble.

Submarines endurance at sea is also limited by the storage space for the fuel and for the food and drinking water for the crew. Does Pak Navy have the assets to supply about 12 subs with the essentials on the high seas, say 3,000 miles away from base?

Because without this ability, PN would not be able to ambush IN vessels on the East coast of India.

 

[niaz]

Without doubt submarine is a multi-role role platform. It can be also used for surveillance and even attacking land targets with cruise missiles. IMO its defensive role is only for protecting naval flotillas and merchant shipping convoys, not the offshore economic zone. OPV’s are especially designed to patrol economic zone. These can be supplemented by Harpoon firing PC-3’s.

However, submarine is essentially an offensive weapon, it is a hunter. Submarine lies hidden in wait, attacks the surface target and hides in the deep again. That is why modern SSK is also called a hunter killer submarine. Modern SSK can also be used to hunt down and kill other submarines.

An analogy; an MBT is primarily as offensive asset, meant to be used as a battering ram for punching hole in enemy’s defences and for fighting other tanks. However a tank can also be employed as mobile artillery supporting the infantry but then one is underutilising it.

Similarly using a hunter killer SSK as a defensive /denial weapon means one is not exploiting its full potential.

 

[ziaulislam]

Still a bad deal because of the timeframe. A sub launched in 2000's, Pakistan still managed to aquire them 2 decades later. These subs should have already been inducted with construction ongoing.

The only reason we have a larger AIP fleet is because of indias delays not our success.

time frame is very good, question is whtehr we will keep this time frame or will there be delays
e.g look at indian scorpian deal

 

[Vijyes Yechury]

What Pakistan needs is a submarine in the 1,700 to 2,000 tons class. The sub needs to be able to dive to depths in excess of 350 meters, a submerged speed of about 20 knots, ability to remain submerged for more than 2 weeks without snorkelling and a range of about 6000 miles or more. It should also be exceptionally quiet and able to carry about a dozen anti-ship missiles & torpedoes.

As long as the Chinese subs meet these criteria, we have no cause to grumble.

Submarines endurance at sea is also limited by the storage space for the fuel and for the food and drinking water for the crew. Does Pak Navy have the assets to supply about 12 subs with the essentials on the high seas, say 3,000 miles away from base?

Because without this ability, PN would not be able to ambush IN vessels on the East coast of India.

I dont think idea is to ambush east coast assets but to Anti access and area denial so as to ensure much bigger indian force do not attempt for naval blockade without significant losses ...

Furthermore i guess out of total only few submarines will be given strategic role where they had to move towards east ... but even in that case the role will be strategic attack from the east and not anti ship role ... that is my analysis as you cannot go offensive far from your base towards several time bigger and advance force
.. PN can only be agressive in near Pakistani EEZ so that it can get support from air and other assets ...

What do you think ?

Anti submarine warfare is dependent on mostly helicopter and aerial surveillance like P8 orions. They drop a submersible at random locations which has sonar capabilities of radius 30-40km and a diameter of 60-80km. If pakistan coast is 640km long, India needs mere 8-11 helicopter to create a form of perimeter to track any submarine coming and going out of Pakistan. About 4 corvette/destroyers have the ability to carry 3 chopper each and blockade pakistan submarines for good.

SSK are silent and can nide against passive detection but not active radar ones like sonar. The ships and submarine refrain from using sonar as the opponent will be able to get the signal too. For example, if a sonar radius is 40km, the enemy can detect it from 80km and as a result find out about the sonar emitting vessel much earlier and then kill it easily. But, in case of chopper, it is impossible to do so as chopper flies in the air and suddenly drops a submersible sonar. The enemy submarine is helpless against chopper

 

[The Accountant]

And how you plan to bring helicopters to Pakistani coast without putting the helicopters and vessels having them in great danger ?

Helicopters will be easy target for fightwr planes and SAM system near coast whereas frigates will be easily taken over by 11 submarines waiting for pray in the coastal water ... Sorry brother attacking on the coast of Pakistan is not as easy as it was in 1971 when our assets were divided and were far less

Anti submarine warfare is dependent on mostly helicopter and aerial surveillance like P8 orions. They drop a submersible at random locations which has sonar capabilities of radius 30-40km and a diameter of 60-80km. If pakistan coast is 640km long, India needs mere 8-11 helicopter to create a form of perimeter to track any submarine coming and going out of Pakistan. About 4 corvette/destroyers have the ability to carry 3 chopper each and blockade pakistan submarines for good.

SSK are silent and can nide against passive detection but not active radar ones like sonar. The ships and submarine refrain from using sonar as the opponent will be able to get the signal too. For example, if a sonar radius is 40km, the enemy can detect it from 80km and as a result find out about the sonar emitting vessel much earlier and then kill it easily. But, in case of chopper, it is impossible to do so as chopper flies in the air and suddenly drops a submersible sonar. The enemy submarine is helpless against chopper

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

US will send aircraft carrier to protect us like in 70's we don't need navy