Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions

[Readerdefence]

You are mistaken, Pakistan has access to a lot of western tech, so the PN does the usual mix and match to get the max bang for the buck. The delay is due to major design changes and we will not get the first sub in 2022, rather first batch


Hi I think PN credibility is at stake after getting these 8 subs I don't think
They can get anymore from anywhere so easily alas PN must have gone through
All the available Chinese tech beside there must be some clue that why we are
Getting first one 2022 coz Chinese must be polishing their AIP skills beside Pakistan
Might be trying to put on some western tech on these subs through one way or the
Other to cut in short the story Chinese and Pakistanis they both need time to shape
These subs according to PN requirements

[/QUOTE]
Hi hi I'm not saying Pakistan doesn't have access to western technology alas
In this scenario and present mode of payment from china we can't get anything
From the western world & offcourse money matters specially giving cutting edge
Technology to Pakistan so my opinion is china is trying to give us the best possible
Technology according to our desire and means
Thx

 

[JK!]

Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization
By: Usman Ansari, June 17, 2015

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan hopes to revive its naval modernization program through a warship construction deal with China that will also expand Pakistan's shipbuilding industry.

Chinese media reports have outlined a construction program involving six of eight S-20 variants of the Type-039A/Type-041 submarine under negotiation; four "Improved F-22P" frigates equipped with enhanced sensors and weaponry (possibly including the HQ-17 surface-to-air missile developed from the Russian Tor 1/SA-N-9); and six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats, to be built by Pakistan's state-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).

The reports indicate Type-022 construction may be delayed by the ongoing Azmat fast attack craft building program, but also highlight a significant expansion of KSEW's facilities.

These include a foundry, fabrication facilities to cover all aspects of ship construction, berthing facilities, and two graving docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres.

A 7,881-ton ship lift transfer system will be completed next year.

KSEW will expand to occupy facilities vacated by the Navy as it transfers from Karachi to Ormara. The Pakistan Navy Dockyard, which is adjacent to KSEW, already has facilities upgraded by the French during construction of Agosta-90B submarines.

Pakistani officials would not comment on these reports. Repeated attempts to secure comment from the Ministry of Defence Production, KSEW, the Navy and federal politicians connected with defense decision-making bodies were turned away.

The program will follow a Sino-Pakistani agreement for six patrol vessels for Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency agreed to on June 10, with two built by KSEW.

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the groundwork laid by the Agosta-90B program that included upgrades to PN Dockyard facilities and the training of some 1,000 civilian technicians greatly facilitated present plans.

However, Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow, defense, industries and society, at the Royal United Services Institute highlighted the problems KSEW's construction and expansion plans could encounter.

"Experience from around the world shows that it is very easy to be optimistic about the difficulty of naval shipbuilding and the time taken to complete construction and systems integration," he said. "Plans for rapid expansion of warship production are unlikely to proceed on schedule. The coordinated and sustained application of extensive managerial and technical skills is required, and submarines especially have vital safety dimensions."

He highlights the importance of a sustainable program.

"The lesson from the UK and elsewhere is that, once a warship design and build capability is in place, it is best maintained and developed through a planned and steady drumbeat of programs, rather than a rapid expansion of activity for a limited period of years followed by a sudden drop-off in orders. Clearly this requires a consistent stance of support for the industry from political authorities."

Cloughley is optimistic, however, that the extensive Chinese help provided to Pakistan in warship construction, in addition to agreements made during Chinese President Xi Jinping's recent visit, "indicate that all types of cooperation will continue and expand."

He said this is related to the burgeoning Indo-US relationship, India's increasingly antagonistic anti-Pakistani rhetoric, and clearer Sino-Indian divisions that mean the Sino-Pakistan "axis of understanding has become more tangible."

Consequently, "KSEW can expect considerable input from such as [China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co]. Money, certainly; but also, and perhaps of more importance, provision of expertise."

He said China's help will also further increase the number of skilled technicians as "there are many would-be technicians with great potential who cannot obtain training," which China is aware of "and has planned accordingly," with KSEW also running a training program.

Cloughley said the Chinese investment and involvement will ensure the program's sustainability.

"Given China's amazingly large financial commitment to cooperation with Pakistan, there is no doubt that Beijing will be calling the tune. And KSEW and many other establishments will be pleased to dance to it."

Though the naval expansion plan is impressive and will ensure future refit and modernization work, analyst Haris Kahn of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said with the decommissioning of Type-21 frigates it still only meets Pakistan's "minimum naval deterrence."

"The Navy needs close to 20 large surface vessels [frigates and heavy frigates]" of which at least three should be ships able to provide area air defense, as the "F-22P will not cut it and the need of longer-range SAM coverage is essential."

"Unfortunately, with the serious shortage of funds we have not even heard about anywhere else the Navy is looking to get these much-needed vessels," he added.

To meet its requirements for larger warships, Pakistan had hoped to acquire approximately six Perry-class frigates from the US, but Nilanthi Samaranayake, Indian Ocean analyst at the US-based CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said this route is now blocked "due to congressional obstacles."

However, Samaranayake still sees a need for such frigates to "support its counterpiracy and maritime security operations under combined maritime forces."

Cloughley cites Indian influence in Washington for their unavailability, but though Pakistan still desires more Perry-class frigates "on easy or gift terms ... the lure of Chinese ships combined with the massive [Chinese] investment program and Pakistan's increasing disenchantment with Washington would seem to militate against any movement [toward the US]," and Pakistan will certainly look to China in time.

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ilding-china-frigates-dockyard-ksew/71074464/


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ormer-us-secdefs-china-peace-taiwan/78744820/

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...na-finalize-8-sub-construction-plan/73634218/

Couple of additional articles from same site as above article. There are some useful insights and good analysis.

They are dated admittedly from 2015 so any input about present situation would be good.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin @fatman17 @MastanKhan @TheOccupiedKashmir @Arsalan

 

[Penguin]

Clearly, land based HQ-17 is a modified Russian Tor vehicle and missile system. However, I would be very curious if China offers a naval variant, and what this would look like in terms of e.g. VLS/mount and associated radar(s) and electro-optronics. Esp. since China has not (yet) adopted a naval variant itself.

Naval version of Tor-M2 as shown by Almaz-Antey during IMDS 2013 naval defence exhibition

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...on-of-tor-m2u-air-defense-missile-system.html

 

[Gryphon]

Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization
By: Usman Ansari, June 17, 2015

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan hopes to revive its naval modernization program through a warship construction deal with China that will also expand Pakistan's shipbuilding industry.

Chinese media reports have outlined a construction program involving six of eight S-20 variants of the Type-039A/Type-041 submarine under negotiation; four "Improved F-22P" frigates equipped with enhanced sensors and weaponry (possibly including the HQ-17 surface-to-air missile developed from the Russian Tor 1/SA-N-9); and six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats, to be built by Pakistan's state-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).

The reports indicate Type-022 construction may be delayed by the ongoing Azmat fast attack craft building program, but also highlight a significant expansion of KSEW's facilities.

These include a foundry, fabrication facilities to cover all aspects of ship construction, berthing facilities, and two graving docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres.

A 7,881-ton ship lift transfer system will be completed next year.

KSEW will expand to occupy facilities vacated by the Navy as it transfers from Karachi to Ormara. The Pakistan Navy Dockyard, which is adjacent to KSEW, already has facilities upgraded by the French during construction of Agosta-90B submarines.

Pakistani officials would not comment on these reports. Repeated attempts to secure comment from the Ministry of Defence Production, KSEW, the Navy and federal politicians connected with defense decision-making bodies were turned away.

The program will follow a Sino-Pakistani agreement for six patrol vessels for Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency agreed to on June 10, with two built by KSEW.

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the groundwork laid by the Agosta-90B program that included upgrades to PN Dockyard facilities and the training of some 1,000 civilian technicians greatly facilitated present plans.

However, Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow, defense, industries and society, at the Royal United Services Institute highlighted the problems KSEW's construction and expansion plans could encounter.

"Experience from around the world shows that it is very easy to be optimistic about the difficulty of naval shipbuilding and the time taken to complete construction and systems integration," he said. "Plans for rapid expansion of warship production are unlikely to proceed on schedule. The coordinated and sustained application of extensive managerial and technical skills is required, and submarines especially have vital safety dimensions."

He highlights the importance of a sustainable program.

"The lesson from the UK and elsewhere is that, once a warship design and build capability is in place, it is best maintained and developed through a planned and steady drumbeat of programs, rather than a rapid expansion of activity for a limited period of years followed by a sudden drop-off in orders. Clearly this requires a consistent stance of support for the industry from political authorities."

Cloughley is optimistic, however, that the extensive Chinese help provided to Pakistan in warship construction, in addition to agreements made during Chinese President Xi Jinping's recent visit, "indicate that all types of cooperation will continue and expand."

He said this is related to the burgeoning Indo-US relationship, India's increasingly antagonistic anti-Pakistani rhetoric, and clearer Sino-Indian divisions that mean the Sino-Pakistan "axis of understanding has become more tangible."

Consequently, "KSEW can expect considerable input from such as [China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co]. Money, certainly; but also, and perhaps of more importance, provision of expertise."

He said China's help will also further increase the number of skilled technicians as "there are many would-be technicians with great potential who cannot obtain training," which China is aware of "and has planned accordingly," with KSEW also running a training program.

Cloughley said the Chinese investment and involvement will ensure the program's sustainability.

"Given China's amazingly large financial commitment to cooperation with Pakistan, there is no doubt that Beijing will be calling the tune. And KSEW and many other establishments will be pleased to dance to it."

Though the naval expansion plan is impressive and will ensure future refit and modernization work, analyst Haris Kahn of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said with the decommissioning of Type-21 frigates it still only meets Pakistan's "minimum naval deterrence."

"The Navy needs close to 20 large surface vessels [frigates and heavy frigates]" of which at least three should be ships able to provide area air defense, as the "F-22P will not cut it and the need of longer-range SAM coverage is essential."

"Unfortunately, with the serious shortage of funds we have not even heard about anywhere else the Navy is looking to get these much-needed vessels," he added.

To meet its requirements for larger warships, Pakistan had hoped to acquire approximately six Perry-class frigates from the US, but Nilanthi Samaranayake, Indian Ocean analyst at the US-based CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said this route is now blocked "due to congressional obstacles."

However, Samaranayake still sees a need for such frigates to "support its counterpiracy and maritime security operations under combined maritime forces."

Cloughley cites Indian influence in Washington for their unavailability, but though Pakistan still desires more Perry-class frigates "on easy or gift terms ... the lure of Chinese ships combined with the massive [Chinese] investment program and Pakistan's increasing disenchantment with Washington would seem to militate against any movement [toward the US]," and Pakistan will certainly look to China in time.

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ilding-china-frigates-dockyard-ksew/71074464/


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ormer-us-secdefs-china-peace-taiwan/78744820/

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...na-finalize-8-sub-construction-plan/73634218/

Couple of additional articles from same site as above article. There are some useful insights and good analysis.

They are dated admittedly from 2015 so any input about present situation would be good.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin @fatman17 @MastanKhan @TheOccupiedKashmir @Arsalan

Navy did not order additional F-22P frigates due to financial constraints.

A deal for 4 Corvette's (based on the Milgem Ada / LF-2400) is being negotiated with STM, Turkey and will likely be finalized in 2-3 months.

Regarding Type 022 Houbei, there were media reports few years back that PN wanted to acquire six. STM, Turkey has jumped into the competition with its FAC-55.

Contract for 8 AIP submarines was signed two years ago. Deliveries will start in 2022.

 

[CHI RULES]

Considering new threats and challenges with CPEC project I may like to ask people here that is it enough to get only 4 Milgem Variants as PN shall have to retire five F21 class frigates soon which have passed their useful life long ago.

Further as per my thinking the FACs are there to support frigates/destroyers rather than substitute them.

 

[Army research]

Could it be that these were deliberately delayed so as to have more tech available say in the last four to be built at Karachi? And say more cash post 2025 allows the last subs to be way advanced ?

 

[JK!]

Navy did not order additional F-22P frigates due to financial constraints.

A deal for 4 Corvette's (based on the Milgem Ada / LF-2400) is being negotiated with STM, Turkey and will likely be finalized in 2-3 months.

Regarding Type 022 Houbei, there were media reports few years back that PN wanted to acquire six. STM, Turkey has jumped into the competition with its FAC-55.

Contract for 8 AIP submarines was signed two years ago. Deliveries will start in 2022.

I found the insight into the development and progression of KSEW in the article pretty beneficial here. As the commentators stated the intention seems to be to slowly build capability up to regularly build new ships.

As usual it seems to be financial constraints that are keeping things from moving forward and it's good at least the intention is there.

Regarding the subs @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has mentioned the past tendency to build the platforms from kits as opposed to wholly being built in Pakistan. Further investment from STM will prove useful here for adding non Chinese subsystems.

 

[khanasifm]

1 f21 retired for spares and 1 going to be retro fitted for msa that leave 4 for now not sure how much life and spare supply left

 

[khanasifm]

The only time pn had 10 plus 3000 Ton plus fighting ships was in 80s

 

[Basel]

Clearly, land based HQ-17 is a modified Russian Tor vehicle and missile system. However, I would be very curious if China offers a naval variant, and what this would look like in terms of e.g. VLS/mount and associated radar(s) and electro-optronics. Esp. since China has not (yet) adopted a naval variant itself.

Naval version of Tor-M2 as shown by Almaz-Antey during IMDS 2013 naval defence exhibition

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...on-of-tor-m2u-air-defense-missile-system.html

Do you think For latest version good enough for ships protection?

Also PN should look into new tech specially air defence for sub's and following route can be copied to add more protection to our upcoming 8 sub's.

@Penguin @Bilal Khan (Quwa) what is you opinion guys about air defence above mentioned, will it be good to have against IN?

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization
By: Usman Ansari, June 17, 2015

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan hopes to revive its naval modernization program through a warship construction deal with China that will also expand Pakistan's shipbuilding industry.

Chinese media reports have outlined a construction program involving six of eight S-20 variants of the Type-039A/Type-041 submarine under negotiation; four "Improved F-22P" frigates equipped with enhanced sensors and weaponry (possibly including the HQ-17 surface-to-air missile developed from the Russian Tor 1/SA-N-9); and six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats, to be built by Pakistan's state-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).

The reports indicate Type-022 construction may be delayed by the ongoing Azmat fast attack craft building program, but also highlight a significant expansion of KSEW's facilities.

These include a foundry, fabrication facilities to cover all aspects of ship construction, berthing facilities, and two graving docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres.

A 7,881-ton ship lift transfer system will be completed next year.

KSEW will expand to occupy facilities vacated by the Navy as it transfers from Karachi to Ormara. The Pakistan Navy Dockyard, which is adjacent to KSEW, already has facilities upgraded by the French during construction of Agosta-90B submarines.

Pakistani officials would not comment on these reports. Repeated attempts to secure comment from the Ministry of Defence Production, KSEW, the Navy and federal politicians connected with defense decision-making bodies were turned away.

The program will follow a Sino-Pakistani agreement for six patrol vessels for Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency agreed to on June 10, with two built by KSEW.

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the groundwork laid by the Agosta-90B program that included upgrades to PN Dockyard facilities and the training of some 1,000 civilian technicians greatly facilitated present plans.

However, Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow, defense, industries and society, at the Royal United Services Institute highlighted the problems KSEW's construction and expansion plans could encounter.

"Experience from around the world shows that it is very easy to be optimistic about the difficulty of naval shipbuilding and the time taken to complete construction and systems integration," he said. "Plans for rapid expansion of warship production are unlikely to proceed on schedule. The coordinated and sustained application of extensive managerial and technical skills is required, and submarines especially have vital safety dimensions."

He highlights the importance of a sustainable program.

"The lesson from the UK and elsewhere is that, once a warship design and build capability is in place, it is best maintained and developed through a planned and steady drumbeat of programs, rather than a rapid expansion of activity for a limited period of years followed by a sudden drop-off in orders. Clearly this requires a consistent stance of support for the industry from political authorities."

Cloughley is optimistic, however, that the extensive Chinese help provided to Pakistan in warship construction, in addition to agreements made during Chinese President Xi Jinping's recent visit, "indicate that all types of cooperation will continue and expand."

He said this is related to the burgeoning Indo-US relationship, India's increasingly antagonistic anti-Pakistani rhetoric, and clearer Sino-Indian divisions that mean the Sino-Pakistan "axis of understanding has become more tangible."

Consequently, "KSEW can expect considerable input from such as [China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co]. Money, certainly; but also, and perhaps of more importance, provision of expertise."

He said China's help will also further increase the number of skilled technicians as "there are many would-be technicians with great potential who cannot obtain training," which China is aware of "and has planned accordingly," with KSEW also running a training program.

Cloughley said the Chinese investment and involvement will ensure the program's sustainability.

"Given China's amazingly large financial commitment to cooperation with Pakistan, there is no doubt that Beijing will be calling the tune. And KSEW and many other establishments will be pleased to dance to it."

Though the naval expansion plan is impressive and will ensure future refit and modernization work, analyst Haris Kahn of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said with the decommissioning of Type-21 frigates it still only meets Pakistan's "minimum naval deterrence."

"The Navy needs close to 20 large surface vessels [frigates and heavy frigates]" of which at least three should be ships able to provide area air defense, as the "F-22P will not cut it and the need of longer-range SAM coverage is essential."

"Unfortunately, with the serious shortage of funds we have not even heard about anywhere else the Navy is looking to get these much-needed vessels," he added.

To meet its requirements for larger warships, Pakistan had hoped to acquire approximately six Perry-class frigates from the US, but Nilanthi Samaranayake, Indian Ocean analyst at the US-based CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said this route is now blocked "due to congressional obstacles."

However, Samaranayake still sees a need for such frigates to "support its counterpiracy and maritime security operations under combined maritime forces."

Cloughley cites Indian influence in Washington for their unavailability, but though Pakistan still desires more Perry-class frigates "on easy or gift terms ... the lure of Chinese ships combined with the massive [Chinese] investment program and Pakistan's increasing disenchantment with Washington would seem to militate against any movement [toward the US]," and Pakistan will certainly look to China in time.

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ilding-china-frigates-dockyard-ksew/71074464/


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ormer-us-secdefs-china-peace-taiwan/78744820/

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...na-finalize-8-sub-construction-plan/73634218/

Couple of additional articles from same site as above article. There are some useful insights and good analysis.

They are dated admittedly from 2015 so any input about present situation would be good.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Penguin @fatman17 @MastanKhan @TheOccupiedKashmir @Arsalan

Pakistan seems to be headed that way (China) for big ticket items because of the Chinese soft loans offers but they have to be paid back in the medium term. having said that the love affair with American war material is still strong within the Pakistan military and will continue to pursue such items like F16s and attack helos. Pakistan has however diversified its supply chain with strong defense ties with Italy, turkey and the Ukraine for SAMS, tanks and SP guns. ties with Moscow are slowly moving forward but I don't see much progress beyond jet engines and helos. similarly Pakistan is trying to engage RSA for war materials like MRAPS, SP guns etc,

 

[Penguin]

The only time pn had 10 plus 3000 Ton plus fighting ships was in 80s

6 Brooke and 6 Garcia class frigates, plus 1 County class and 2 Leander, IIRC.

1 f21 retired for spares and 1 going to be retro fitted for msa that leave 4 for now not sure how much life and spare supply left

Ship - First Commissioned - Builder - PN service
Amazone 11-5-1974 Vosper 1993 to Pakistan as PNS Babur (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
Active 17-6-1977 Vosper 1994 to Pakistan as PNS Shahjahan (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, STWS-1 triple-tube launchers for US Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
Ambuscade 5-9-1975 Yarrow 1993 to Pakistan as PNS Tariq (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)
Arrow 29-7-1976 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as PNS Khaibar (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)
Alacrity 2-7-1977 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as PNS Badr (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Type 992 radar, STWS-1 triple-tube launchers for US Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, 2x4 Harpoon and Phalanx)
Avenger 19-7-1978 Yarrow 1994 to Pakistan as PNS Tippu Sultan (Saab 9LV Mk3 FCS, Signaal/Thales DA08 radar, Bofors 43X2 wire guided ASW-torpedoes, LY-60 SAM and 2x30mm, later replaced by Phalanx)

PNS Badr & Babur decommissioned from PN.

STM, Turkey has jumped into the competition with its FAC-55.

IMHO a more capable and useful craft.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...raft-fac-55-about-to-sail-the-world-seas.html

Do you think For latest version good enough for ships protection?

If buying Russian, several options would be available including the naval versions of the latest Tor and Pantsir air defence vehicles. While different, both are capable systems, if with different specializations.

KBP's Pantsir-M is designed to take on a variety of targets flying at low or extremely low altitudes.Almaz-Antey's Tor-M designed to attack aircraft, helicopters, aerodynamic UAVs, guided missiles and other components of high precision weapons flying at medium, low and extremely low altitudes in adverse air and jamming environment.

Already in the older Klinok version (alka 3K95 Kinzhal) was designed to provide self-defense for surface ships against mass attacks from low-flying anti-ship missiles, other unmanned and manned assault aircraft and weapon, as well as attacks from ships including wing-in-ground effect craft.
http://www.almaz-antey.ru/en/catalogue/millitary_catalogue/1218/1222/1236/1239

Main drawback was the huge firecontrol radar 'complex'.

In the PN context a Naval Tor is probably a better choice than naval Pantsir, in view of its ability to deal with mass attack from multiple directions, esp. if fitted with a fixed four face firecontrol radar mast (which eliminates the drawback of having to aim the guidance radar in any one direction in particular, which is usefull when combined with VLS). But like I said, I would like to see some more specifics of any Chinese HQ17 variant offered, as this would likely differ from the Russian naval Tor.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...-pantsir-s1-for-surface-ship-air-defense.html
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...ervice-with-russian-navy-before-year-end.html

Also PN should look into new tech specially air defence for sub's and following route can be copied to add more protection to our upcoming 8 sub's.

Nice to have as last ditch "when we have no other choice" situations, but subs should preferably not put themselves in any situation where they actually can or have to engage MPAs or ASW-helicopters.... esp. if/when carrying nuclear armed missiles.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IMO the PN shouldn't shy away from <3,000-ton light frigates to build a surface warship fleet. Larger ships (of any origin) are generally costly to buy and operate, while smaller ships could possibly be had for a reasonable budget but still deliver useful AShW, ASW and AAW capabilities. Yes, AAW will depend on Pakistan's access to VLS-based SAMs, but with the MoU with South Africa and ongoing ties with Turkey, this shouldn't be a major problem.

I personally like the STM LF-2400. It looks like a well-rounded and capable enough design to meet the PN's peacetime EEZ and SLOC duties and wartime A2/AD needs. The ASW element is useful. The AAW element (via 16 VLS cells) has potential, especially if a MR-SAM is secured and, in time, supplanted by a Barak-8-like MR/LR-SAM.

 

[JK!]

The second strike capability using SLCM version of Babur will be the most beneficial. Even here in the U.K. when the discussion of Trident system replacement is debated the most cost effective alternative mooted is a nuclear tipped cruise missile system.

It means the subs can be double hatted and used either conventionally or in the extreme second strike role.

 

[Inception-06]

Hi,

8 subs deal and around 10 years +++ delivery time is an overall bad deal tactically---.

Tactically---it should have been split---if not aircraft then between surface fleet and sub surface fleet---and then another deal signed after 5 years---.

The deal was signed in this manner is due to ' VERY ' large kickbacks---.

Otherwise---there were those in the system who had opposed such a large deal---spanned over 10 years time for obvious reasons.

Who has opposed it and who is involved in the kickbacks ?