HAIDER: UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN’S NEXT-GENERATION TANK

[war&peace]

because it is like asking them to help you develop a competing product against their own and potentially reduce the chances of selling their own tanks

a country can only offer its ToT if it sees some benefit to itself without risking its own potential sales and cant just give up its secrets and years of hard work.. unless if the buyer is able and willing to pay the price demanded by the seller

That's true...But what about Pakistan and Turkey...both have experience in developing tanks and armour but both lack in the engine department so if both countries combine their resources and start a joint R&D program for heavy tank engines, I think both can do it. They can start reverse engineering some of the best engines available to them (AK has 1200 hp engine), we can buy a few Oplot-Ms etc.

 

[Zarvan]

Thank you both for your response. The reason for my post was the news items to the effect that Ukraine has not been able to supply tanks to Thailand due to problems with their factories. This remains a concern and buying off the shelf maybe a problem. I am not sure or cannot rememeber where theglitch in their manufacturing is but currently it has been very slow. Considering other countries have also gone down the route I think we like Arsalan that we should build up on our experience with Al khalid and continue the project modifying the tank and making it as per our requirement while incorporating technologies and susbsystems from where ever we can get the best ones from. I do not know whether we have the capacity to build 2 tanks sisde by side and if we are abandoning Al Khalid to build something else it would be a mistake.
A

Ukraine has supplied 40 Tanks to Thailand and we would buy Tanks with TOT and produce them in Pakistan

 

[Taygibay]

AK & Al-Zarar already have NCW capabilities and Al-Haider will complement AK as AK will remain MBT of PA.

I doubt that Type 59-II comes close to Al-Khalid regarding NCW.
But nevertheless, we still then witness a trend for PA to go for
bigger and bigger tanks with more and more info throughput to
and fro.

Making this a truly useful capacity means things like differentiating
your own team from the targets in the mass of mobiles on the field.
For the network to do that, said team blue ( our guys ) need to have
a transmitter too, down to the individual soldier, making them visible.

I am not questioning the validity of network-centricity, just saying that
it requires quite a few bricks and costs a lot of money and by conse-
quence should be easy to track.

On a social aspect, one could wonder about the nation possibly getting
a fully network-centric warfare capability throughout the forces before
electricity is available to most citizens 24/7 and 365 days a year.

And to answer you now Arsalan mate is easier as we just saw what is
necessary grow again, in addition to exiting infrastructures such as the
comm sat(s) and its reception sites and command centers.
These need to be perennialized, be made ever-lasting by way of regular
replacement in the case of the satellite and upgrades for the centers.
In other words, these developments will run concurrently in the future.

We'll see. And Haider if at all late could end up replacing AK as top tier.

Have a great day all, Tay.

 

[hawksway4]

Engines , Engines !

When will Pakistan start making car engines, truck engines, tank engines, jet engines!!!

Any engines, all engines!
It will be a dream come true.

 

[Arsalan]

Why not go for indigenous development through a JV with Turkey, Ukraine, China?
If we can convince Ukraine for providing us 1500-hp engine under ToT, that will be very good. However, advanced the tanks are, the significance of CAS can't be mitigated and PA should invest in that while focus on developing next gen. tank indigenously.

What they will do is offer you what they already are making, there own product. Thus the mention of combining all of those projects as being the best approach.

 

[war&peace]

What they will do is offer you what they already are making, there own product. Thus the mention of combining all of those projects as being the best approach.

Yes, the feasibility should be studied. I hope the responsible people take this into account . Some customisation should not be a big problem but designing totally a new product out of that will take time and resources.

 

[Arsalan]

Yes, the feasibility should be studied. I hope the responsible people take this into account . Some customisation should not be a big problem but designing totally a new product out of that will take time and resources.

No need to reinvent the wheel. Just get all those best components together. That too will take some work to do but the rewards are immense!

 

[war&peace]

This is not reinventing the wheel. If BMWs already makes cars that does not mean any other manufacturer cannot make.
It is just new development with new design, configuration to suit different requirements of different customers

 

[Basel]

I doubt that Type 59-II comes close to Al-Khalid regarding NCW.
But nevertheless, we still then witness a trend for PA to go for
bigger and bigger tanks with more and more info throughput to
and fro.

Making this a truly useful capacity means things like differentiating
your own team from the targets in the mass of mobiles on the field.
For the network to do that, said team blue ( our guys ) need to have
a transmitter too, down to the individual soldier, making them visible.

I am not questioning the validity of network-centricity, just saying that
it requires quite a few bricks and costs a lot of money and by conse-
quence should be easy to track.

On a social aspect, one could wonder about the nation possibly getting
a fully network-centric warfare capability throughout the forces before
electricity is available to most citizens 24/7 and 365 days a year.

And to answer you now Arsalan mate is easier as we just saw what is
necessary grow again, in addition to exiting infrastructures such as the
comm sat(s) and its reception sites and command centers.
These need to be perennialized, be made ever-lasting by way of regular
replacement in the case of the satellite and upgrades for the centers.
In other words, these developments will run concurrently in the future.

We'll see. And Haider if at all late could end up replacing AK as top tier.

Have a great day all, Tay.

Tanks are NCW capable they also have local battle management and communication system allowing them to communicate with each other and share information on screen.

Don't know about infantry now.

 

[That Guy]

Engines , Engines !

When will Pakistan start making car engines, truck engines, tank engines, jet engines!!!

Any engines, all engines!
It will be a dream come true.

When Pakistan is a trillion dollar economy, and even then, it may take decades.

Building an engine is easy, building a RELIABLE engine takes a long time; Just ask any Chinese and Indian member.

 

[araz]

When Pakistan is a trillion dollar economy, and even then, it may take decades.

Building an engine is easy, building a RELIABLE engine takes a long time; Just ask any Chinese and Indian member.

However assembly with minor parts manufacture locally may well be possible with minor investment of manpower and money. I think this was what we have been getting at rather than engine manufacturing from gitgo.
Regards
A

 

[Syed_Adeel]

Haider should be nuke.

:O
???

 

[Asian.Century]

New Chinese upgraded tank:

 

[alimobin memon]

New Chinese upgraded tank:

the design seems similar to type90 series I think instead of buying this tank get it features patched in Al Khalid and instead focus on type 99 or T84, Altay

 

[DCS]

the design seems similar to type90 series I think instead of buying this tank get it features patched in Al Khalid and instead focus on type 99 or T84, Altay

The VT-4 (MBT3000) is an export development of the proposal that lost in competition with what is now the ZTZ-99A. The whole situation is very reminiscent of the FC-31/J20 dichotomy, the winning proposal is given designation and inducted by the PLA, while the losing proposal gets turfed off for exports.

The T-84 is just the kind of wishful thinking that is endemic to this forum. Thailand ordered 49 T-84 in 2011, to date only ~5 have been delivered. Forumers only look at paper capabilities and aesthetics, they never seem to pay attention to supply issues. Thailand is now procuring an initial batch of 28 VT-4, and if it performs well, more will be coming.

I doubt Thailand would go through the trouble of procuring an analogous design if Kharkiv wasn't so incapable of fulfilling their delivery schedule. Ukraine is indispensable for its role in selling expertise and technologies, and that is what Pakistan should be looking at. Expecting Ukraine to deliver new platforms and weapons on schedule is fantasy given its deteriorated industrial level.

The Altay is the most capable proposal by far. It is heavy, but reasonable given the systems integrated into it, most notably the hardkill APS. Many western designs, through upgrades and retrofits have essentially reached or exceeded ~60 tons. If the Arjun could be deployed, the Altay won't be a problem, especially as Pakistan already has a large fleet of lighter tanks. The only thing holding back this proposal is really cost, as with everything it always comes down to cost.