HAIDER: UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN’S NEXT-GENERATION TANK

[Zarvan]

Pakistan must keep working on it's own design and in-house production with foreign support/assistance. The first and most important thing in defence is self sufficiency.

We are working on that but AL HAIDER is parallel project and for that a Tank from around the world would be selected.

 

[Asian.Century]

What Next Generation Haider MBT as a 'Smart Tank' must have, to be modular universal combat platform which needs is a base structure, a skeleton tank like T-99/Altay/T-90S to build on from start by Pak Army / HIT, and then have latest improved automotive components, enhanced protection by reactive, passive and countermeasure systems improving the tank’s protection against guided missiles; the firepower enhancements rely on comprehensive modernization of the turret systems, including a new automatic fire control system, stabilized day/night sights and auto-tracking capability.

Haider tank’s crew should be securely enclosed in a multi-layer armored capsule separated from the ammunition container. The vehicle must be fully computerized and only needs two servicemen to operate it. Each can also deploy the tank’s weapon systems. The tank’s targeting done with an active-phased array antenna and a large variety of other sensors.

A fast efficient network centric complete advanced tank for fighting the current Battle space.

 

[Arsalan]

Pakistan must keep working on it's own design and in-house production with foreign support/assistance. The first and most important thing in defence is self sufficiency.

True!
And after the recent trails it is likely that ALHAIDER wont be bought off the shelf. Changes and modifications are likely and the best approach, as discussed will be opting for a base structure and then making it the base of future armored projects like APC, IFV, Howitzer and Engineering and Support vehicles etc. Fit all with appropriate sub systems from different sources like Ukraine, Turkey, China etc. That will give us a system capable to meet the challenges of modern day combat for significant years to come. It is not impossible or difficult. The main thing required here will be the vision and a will to go down that path.

 

[Zarvan]

True!
And after the recent trails it is likely that ALHAIDER wont be bought off the shelf. Changes and modifications are likely and the best approach, as discussed will be opting for a base structure and then making it the base of future armored projects like APC, IFV, Howitzer and Engineering and Support vehicles etc. Fit all with appropriate sub systems from different sources like Ukraine, Turkey, China etc. That will give us a system capable to meet the challenges of modern day combat for significant years to come. It is not impossible or difficult. The main thing required here will be the vision and a will to go down that path.

Well it could come straight from the shelf in case of OPLOT M. Because if Ukraine has resolved the issue of engine than that was the only issue we had with the Tank. Now if Ukraninans are claiming that engine issue is resolved and if it passes tests than I am pretty sure we would hardly make any changes to OPLOT M.

 

[Arsalan]

Well could come straight from the shelf in case if OPLOT M. Because if Ukraine has resolved the issue of engine than that was the only issue we had with the Tank. Now if Ukraninans are claiming that engine issue is resolved and if passes tests than I am pretty sure we would hardly make any change to OPLOT M.

That wont be a wise move at all. Specially taking into account the considerable number of advantages we can get from going for a base system.

 

[araz]

That wont be a wise move at all. Specially taking into account the considerable number of advantages we can get from going for a base system.

The only thing I see with a deal with the Ukrainians is the possibility of a concomitant deal for in house engine manufacturing. Now that would be something worth going for and under current circumstances with Ukraine in dire staits they might be willing to share the secrets at the right price. This in my view would he a huge coup de grace for PA and its tank industry.
A

 

[Taygibay]

Good people? If the Haider is to be a network centric tank, the first thing you'll need is a network.

A JSTAR type solution is a minimum; a national communications satellite is better yet.
And a massive computing center and more dedicated mil frequency bands/bandwidth.
And that all actors destined to interact with Haider be equipped with correct comm devices.
ETC.

In other words, the program means little if that set-up isn't raised concurrently.
So keeping abreast of such developments will tell us how soon the said Haider
is likely to manifest itself.

News about Paksat-2, renewal of field radios, new Awacs platforms, that sort of things.

Have a great dat all, Tay.

 

[Arsalan]

The only thing I see with a deal with the aUkrain8ans is the possibility of a concomitant deal for in house engine manufacturing. Now that would be something worth going for and under current circumstances with Ukraine in dire staits they might be willing to share the secrets at the right price. This in my view would he a huge coup de grace for PA and its tank industry.
A

In that case it will be more of a forced deal, or carrot if we want to go soft on them. I mean we will buy a limited number of tanks (250-300) and get with it the engine deal. If we can pull this off, it will have HUGE implications for future programs. Also i think if we do go down that route the tank we buy will be registered in our arsenal with its original name (like we did with T80s) and not Al HAIDER. The ALHAIDER will then be the real future project with the engine secured.
I wont mention what i think the best way will be for that project again as i know you have read it sir and also seem to be in agreement with it. However i do like to point out that for me, i think the base structure and the engine will be the most difficult procurement in that and IF we can get that Ukrainian engine with the tank deal, well well!!!

Good people? If the Haider is to be a network centric tank, the first thing you'll need is a network.

A JSTAR type solution is a minimum; a national communications satellite is better yet.
And a massive computing center and more dedicated mil frequency bands/bandwidth.
And that all actors destined to interact with Haider be equipped with correct comm devices.
ETC.

In other words, the program means little if that set-up isn't raised concurrently.
So keeping abreast of such developments will tell us how soon the said Haider
is likely to manifest itself.

News about Paksat-2, renewal of field radios, new Awacs platforms, that sort of things.

Have a great dat all, Tay.

Sir i think it will come as a tank with all the required systems and a possibility of network centric capability. The JSTAR or satellite will be incorporated once the tanks start rolling off the production lines.

 

[Zarvan]

The only thing I see with a deal with the aUkrain8ans is the possibility of a concomitant deal for in house engine manufacturing. Now that would be something worth going for and under current circumstances with Ukraine in dire staits they might be willing to share the secrets at the right price. This in my view would he a huge coup de grace for PA and its tank industry.
A

Pakistan will test OPLOT M again so not just engine can come from Ukraine

 

[tarrar]

Possibly Altay might come to Pakistan.

 

[araz]

Pakistan will test OPLOT M again so not just engine can come from Ukraine

In that case it will be more of a forced deal, or carrot if we want to go soft on them. I mean we will buy a limited number of tanks (250-300) and get with it the engine deal. If we can pull this off, it will have HUGE implications for future programs. Also i think if we do go down that route the tank we buy will be registered in our arsenal with its original name (like we did with T80s) and not Al HAIDER. The ALHAIDER will then be the real future project with the engine secured.
I wont mention what i think the best way will be for that project again as i know you have read it sir and also seem to be in agreement with it. However i do like to point out that for me, i think the base structure and the engine will be the most difficult procurement in that and IF we can get that Ukrainian engine with the tank deal, well well!!!


Sir i think it will come as a tank with all the required systems and a possibility of network centric capability. The JSTAR or satellite will be incorporated once the tanks start rolling off the production lines.

Thank you both for your response. The reason for my post was the news items to the effect that Ukraine has not been able to supply tanks to Thailand due to problems with their factories. This remains a concern and buying off the shelf maybe a problem. I am not sure or cannot rememeber where theglitch in their manufacturing is but currently it has been very slow. Considering other countries have also gone down the route I think we like Arsalan that we should build up on our experience with Al khalid and continue the project modifying the tank and making it as per our requirement while incorporating technologies and susbsystems from where ever we can get the best ones from. I do not know whether we have the capacity to build 2 tanks sisde by side and if we are abandoning Al Khalid to build something else it would be a mistake.
A

 

[Arsalan]

Thank you both for your response. The reason for my post was the news items to the effect that Ukraine has not been able to supply tanks to Thailand due to problems with their factories. This remains a concern and buying off the shelf maybe a problem. I am not sure or cannot rememeber where theglitch in their manufacturing is but currently it has been very slow. Considering other countries have also gone down the route I think we like Arsalan that we should build up on our experience with Al khalid and continue the project modifying the tank and making it as per our requirement while incorporating technologies and susbsystems from where ever we can get the best ones from. I do not know whether we have the capacity to build 2 tanks sisde by side and if we are abandoning Al Khalid to build something else it would be a mistake.
A

it seems that AK project will be revived once those Ukranina tanks are procured (a big IF) and the ALHAIDER pursued. The goodies that come with this will help the AK fleet as well.

I agree with all other things you said sir.

 

[Basel]

Good people? If the Haider is to be a network centric tank, the first thing you'll need is a network.

A JSTAR type solution is a minimum; a national communications satellite is better yet.
And a massive computing center and more dedicated mil frequency bands/bandwidth.
And that all actors destined to interact with Haider be equipped with correct comm devices.
ETC.

In other words, the program means little if that set-up isn't raised concurrently.
So keeping abreast of such developments will tell us how soon the said Haider
is likely to manifest itself.

News about Paksat-2, renewal of field radios, new Awacs platforms, that sort of things.

Have a great dat all, Tay.

AK & Al-Zarar already have NCW capabilities and Al-Haider will complement AK as AK will remain MBT of PA.

Only reason Al-Haider can be MBT of PA if Atlay class tank is inducted, AK already have components from Atlay project.

 

[war&peace]

Why not go for indigenous development through a JV with Turkey, Ukraine, China?
If we can convince Ukraine for providing us 1500-hp engine under ToT, that will be very good. However, advanced the tanks are, the significance of CAS can't be mitigated and PA should invest in that while focus on developing next gen. tank indigenously.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Why not go for indigenous development through a JV with Turkey, Ukraine, China?
If we can convince Ukraine for providing us 1500-hp engine under ToT, that will be very good. However, advanced the tanks are, the significance of CAS can't be mitigated and PA should invest in that while focus on developing next gen. tank indigenously.

because it is like asking them to help you develop a competing product against their own and potentially reduce the chances of selling their own tanks

a country can only offer its ToT if it sees some benefit to itself without risking its own potential sales and cant just give up its secrets and years of hard work.. unless if the buyer is able and willing to pay the price demanded by the seller