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'Good for Christians if Hindus Avoid Convent Schools'

The problem is more with this new virulent form of Xianity that comes from the USA. A lot of people don't go to church anymore and the kinder gentler forms of religion are being replaced by the rabid born again Southern forms. Their main plank seems to " no evolution" " no abortion " " no gays " and " guns for freedom ". They have a lot of money. This is in fact alien to India where Christianity has been living comfortably with other religions for 2000 years.

They do even worse things in Africa, they were responsible for changing laws to provide the death penalty (!) for homosexuality in an East African country. This is also the crowd that cheers for people like Sarah Palin. They are trouble wherever they go.
 
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Christianity is not 2000 years old in India. Christianity had not spread in Jerusalem itself 2000 years ago and here people speak of Indian Christianity being older than one in Jerusalem. Christianity arrived in India in 3 AD.

There was no gentle form of Christianity in India either. Just read up on Portugese and French persecution of Hindus. Not to mention the Christians in Kerala were supporting the Portugese against Indians when they first came in.

What did happen especially in case of Goan catholics was over time they grew relaxed and comfortable in this hospitable environs so they lost their zealousness.
 
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It is very rare to come across a Christian who does not subscribe to the Church's view. From Christian friends telling me how when a Hindu worships his idol at the 7th or 12th minute the soul of Satan enters the idol to another Christian friend's mom who took him to the church to exorcise him of the devil because he was in love with a Hindu girl, there are stories like this in the plenty.
I don't know about " rare". But there are people like that no doubt. We take our religion strong in India unfortunately. There are a lot of very sane clear eyed people though. There have been several books written in Kerala by nuns who claim to be routinely sexually harassed by priests. These books are being read, it not talked about. The church still has a lot of power and India is a land of scarcity, you take a leg up wherever it is available to you.

Christianity is not 2000 years old in India. Christianity had not spread in Jerusalem itself 2000 years ago and here people speak of Indian Christianity being older than one in Jerusalem. Christianity arrived in India in 3 AD.
You may be right, but my understanding was that the first Syrian Xians were converted by St Thomas, a disciple of Jesus in the first century.
 
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I don't know about " rare". But there are people like that no doubt. We take our religion strong in India unfortunately. There are a lot of very sane clear eyed people though. There have been several books written in Kerala by nuns who claim to be routinely sexually harassed by priests. These books are being read, it not talked about. The church still has a lot of power and India is a land of scarcity, you take a leg up wherever it is available to you.


You may be right, but my understanding was that the first Syrian Xians were converted by St Thomas, a disciple of Jesus in the first century.

I contest this. If India is a land of scarcity, then Hindus who still are the poorest of the lot should have been a lot more hostile to minorities and not given them undue advantages that they have. But we do not see this recourse to falsehood in the Hindus. Why is it that Christians so easily fall prey to this and feel emboldened enough to behave like this when in minority leave alone majority?

You may be right, but my understanding was that the first Syrian Xians were converted by St Thomas, a disciple of Jesus in the first century.

Another falsehood planted by the church which has been debunked thoroughly so many times yet Hindus insist on carrying these tales.
 
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I am not sure what undue advantages Xians have been given? Yes they do have a network and system which they use to give themselves a leg up. Hindus are as far as I know are free to do the same and some do with caste based societies. Surely you don't blame others for scrambling for a bigger piece of the pie? You need to protect your own piece of pie.
 
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I am not sure what undue advantages Xians have been given? Yes they do have a network and system which they use to give themselves a leg up. Hindus are as far as I know are free to do the same and some do with caste based societies. Surely you don't blame others for scrambling for a bigger piece of the pie? You need to protect your own piece of pie.

Hindu temples are under the govt control while Christian churches are free. Hindu temple funds are taxed. Not so with Christian churches. Hindu temple funds are also used for renovating Christian churches and mosques. Hindu schools are taxed. Not so with Christian schools. I can go on and on. Much of the Christian schools are built on land given free by the govt. The Christian missionary cornered the education market because of the unfair tax policies of the govt of India. They were allowed to remain tax free while being govt aided in the name of minority institution even though the vast majority of their students came from the majority community.

Now are you saying that Hindus were free to do the same? Is it the mean mindedness of Hindus which held them back from opening Hindu schools?
 
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And who was in the government ? Other Hindus right ? So why are you blaming Christians if Hindu temples are under govt. control? Hindus need to be assertive. I don't think any Chrisitan would have a problem with control of Hindu temples being given to the priests. It's a no brainer.

Hindus played politics with Hindus now you can't cry foul . Fix it . But not by blaming Chrisitans or insulting Muslims. You have no one to blame but your own stupid policies.
 
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You are right. But the church holds a lot of cards and it is difficult for common Christians to raise their voice against them. The church can and does help your child to get into good schools, they can help with jobs afterwards, there are charitable arms believe me why would you want to piss them off and forgo the benefits.

I have a family member born into anXian family who was nevertheless an atheist, the church gave his family a
Iot of trouble, it is not so easy to stand up to these guys as you think... And there is social pressure.
That is, you are not a Christian yourself ?
 
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And who was in the government ? Other Hindus right ? So why are you blaming Christians if Hindu temples are under govt. control? Hindus need to be assertive. I don't think any Chrisitan would have a problem with control of Hindu temples being given to the priests. It's a no brainer.

Hindus played politics with Hindus now you can't cry foul . Fix it . But not by blaming Chrisitans or insulting Muslims. You have no one to blame but your own stupid policies.

Hindus did not play politics with Hindus. Maculayites inherited the politics from the British and it was perpetuated by atheists and skeptics amply aided by Christians and other minorities who played on their fears of majoritarianism.

But that was not the argument you presented. You said there were no undue advantages given to the minorities and all they did was scramble for a bigger piece of the pie while implying Hindus were too lazy to do so. Another thing you implied was that it is because India is a land of scarcity that Christians hold onto the churches teats no matter what the church does. While obviously the argument of scarcity does not hold for Hindus.

Hindus so far have been sleep walking and unaware of being robbed.

The disaster known as the 93rd Amendment | IndiaFactsIndiaFacts

rly 2005 was a time of joyous celebration in the Congress Party. They had just upset the BJP led National Democratic Alliance at the polls. Their allies DMK and the Communists had pulled off spectacular wins in their states. Sonia Gandhi was in firm control of the Congress party and none of the smaller allies had any big ticket ambitions. They could be placated by a few sectarian concessions, relaxed prosecution, or providing them corruption opportunities. It seemed like the dark days of the Hindutva agenda under Vajyapee were truly over.

However, under the covers, one critical problem loomed that needed urgent fixing. Strategic thinkers of the establishment realized that the principal canon of the “Idea of India’ was damaged beyond recognition under BJPs rule. That of the state to run outright communal preferences in the domain of education.

Judicial blows to the Idea of India
The Indian state has grappled unsuccessfully with the issue of education ever since its inception. The question that most concerned everyone during the 90’s was how to regulate the rapidly proliferating private education space. After a series of over eager judgments in Mohini Jain and Unnikrishnan it became abundantly clear that the government alone was not in a position to fulfil the education needs of the people and running the private sector into the ground (such as in Mohini Jain) would backfire. Faced with this reality various state governments resorted to biting off a part of the private capacity and using that to advance its social objectives. Almost immediately this ran into the minority issue as well as issues related to fees and cross subsidies. A number of these questions accumulated and the need to settle this once and for all was felt by everyone. The opportunity presented itself in a case called TMA Pai Society vs Union of India.

Eleven judges of the Supreme Court, the second largest bench after the 1973 Kesavanada Bharati’ thirteen judges would hear the education and minority issues and settle the issues once and for all. The hope was this large bench would not be encumbered by the earlier nine judge bench in St Xaviers v Gujarat. I won’t go into the details ofTMA Pai but the 11-judge bench delivered its verdict in 2002. The split was roughly 7-4 on a number of questions; but even the 4 dissenting judges agreed on a number of the framed questions. The most shocking part of the judgment was the following.

Private education institutes established by minorities and non-minorities were held to be on equal footing. Hindus could enjoy the exact same rights under Sec 19-1(g) that the minorities did under Art 29/30.

This may seem like a no-brainer decision to us or to a western liberal observer but this kind of parity is anathema to the Idea of India. The best evidence for this came recently when Fali Nariman spoke at the National Minorities Convention. Sample this:

The decision in TMA Pai was a un-mitigated disaster for the minorities. Let me tell you why. Article 30 (the right of minorities,religious and linguistic to establish and maintain education institutions of their choice) has now been placed by Court decision on a much lower pedestal than it was – or was intended to be. It has been equated only with a fundamental right guaranteed under Article 19(1)(g)– i.e. a mere right to an occupation (running an educational institution the Judges said is an “occupation’ like any other)

Of course, it is not a question of lower or higher pedestal but that of parity with everyone else. Why would you not interpret that everyone is now elevated to Art 30 level protection ?

Post TMA Pai, there were a number of issues related to entrance exams, capitation, and such like that caused major confusion. Another constitution bench of 5 judges was setup under Islamic Academy vs Karnataka to clarify. They still left some vagueness in the questions related to admissions. Then a final bench of 7 judges was constituted for PA Inamdar v Maharashtra to further seal the issue. A lot of questions got answered – a lot did not. But here is what happened.

The essential parity the court accorded to minorities and Hindus in the field of education persisted. The concept of parity between Hindus and Minorities run educational institutions emerged unscathed after examination of large benches. First a 11 judge, then 5 judge, then 7 judge. The final word :

In the opinion of S.B. Sinha, J, minority educational institutions do not have a higher right in terms of Article 30(1); the rights of minorities and non-minorities are equal. What is conferred by Article 30(1) of the Constitution is “certain additional protection’ with the object of bringing the minorities on the same platform as that of non-minorities, so that the minorities are protected by establishing and administering educational institutions for the benefit of their own community, whether based on religion or language.

It is clear that as between minority and non-minority educational institutions, the distinction made by Article 30(1) in the fundamental rights conferred by Article 19(1)(g) has been termed by the majority as “special right’ while in the opinion of S.B.Sinha, J, it is not a right but an “additional protection’. What difference it makes, we shall see a little later.

PA Inamdar vs State of Maharashtra Aug 2005

The final word in PA Inamdar came in August 2005. It was now clear beyond doubt that the principle of parity to Hindus in education had just emerged unscathed from three big constitution benches. It was settled. It was final. It was going to be the way forward for India. I realize now that the ecosystem must have been inconsolable at this. How was the Sonia led Congress govt going to restore the minority preference over these epic judgments. The Congress govt just decided to, ahem simply change the Constitution of the great Republic of India.

The 104 Constitutional Amendment bill is born
After PA Inamdar came down in Aug 2005, minority preferences in unaided education had reached a judicial cul-de-sac. It really was game over. The Congress govt worked with great urgency to move a constitutional amendment bill that would obliterate the court judgments The idea was to

  • allow the state to take (to an unspecified extent) from unaided educational institutions
  • explicity exempt institutions run by minorities from it
  • explicitly encode the exemption in Art 15(5) itself
The person selected by the party high command to pilot such an outrageously divisive bill was none other than Arjun Singh – the Congress HRD Minister. They quickly added a new section in the Constitution of India called Article 15(5) which read.

“(5) Nothing in this article or in sub-clause (g) of clause (1) of article 19 shall prevent the State from making any special provision, by law, for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes or the Scheduled Tribes in so far as such special provisions relate to their admission to educational institutions including private educational institutions, whether aided or unaided by the State, other than the minority educational institutions referred to in clause (1) of article 30.’

The minority exemption was immediately opposed by the BJP. Unfortunately they did not make an intellectually honest case as to why this bill was wrong. Instead they sought to include backward among minorities in their institutions. Also remember this was 2005, there was no social media. The mainstream media had absolute control of the discourse and they might have simply decided to suppress all dissent and continued with their propaganda. Regardless, it does seem that BJP put up a fight – however nominal. This is what happened.

  • Since 2005 was a massive victory for the Idea of India in total contrast to 2014 – the Congress could work the caste blocs within the NDA with targeted benefits
  • The JDU backstabbed the NDA at the last minute leaving it stranded
  • The BJP opposition was not very sustained or principled. In the end, the BJP voted for the bill and moved a separate amendment which extended Art 15(5) to minorities. That was predictably defeated
  • You can see that pattern evolve in much of BJP’s support to invidious UPA legislation such as RTE
Impact on SC/ST
Since a large chunk of the top educational institutions are run in India by minorities – the bill predictably hurts the Dalits by shutting them off elite professional colleges. For example in Kerala minorities run 14 of 18 medical colleges. This is the clearest proof that the Congress party which claims to fight for Dalits will only do so when it does not come into conflict with Christians and to a lesser extent the Muslims. (Only because among minorities Christians run a much larger chunk of education than Muslims do). A forum of SC/ST parliamentarians raised this issue and a delegation appears to have met the Prime Minister. They finally seemed to have been assured by the Prime Minster Manmohan Singh that their concerns will be taken care of. Of course, we know now that he really wasnt in control of anything. This fizzled out and Dalits still dont have quotas in aided or unaided minority institutions. Hope the BJP leaders involved in those days speak up now in detail. Details are scant in the media.

In the end, on Dec 22 2005 the 93rd Amendment was passed. The Constitution of India was changed. Years of effort of huge benches, dozens of lawyers, thousands of hours of arguments were obliterated. Minorities were once again restored to a preferred status when it came to the issue to education.

Validity of the bill
One of the reasons I wrote this article was to highlight the need to understand the 93rd amendment. A good summary of details can be found on this blog as well. Quite naturally this 93rd Amendment was challenged. While hearing the OBC quota case Ashok Kumar Thakur v Union of India. the court noted that they would not hear challenge to the 93rd amendment until the Centre passed a law that depended on it.

That opportunity to test the 93rd amendment against the “Basic Structure’ came n 2010 in the form of theRight to Education Act. This was a law that exercised the 93rd amendment by imposing on private educational effort while exempting those schools run by people born as minorities. Remember that the quanta 25% is arbitrary – there is absolutely no protection upto 49.5%. Even that is crumbling. An earlier bench hearing a challenge to the RTE Act involving Rajasthan Private Schools did not go into the constitutional question. I can only guess because that was only a 3-judge bench. Eventually they did constitute a 5-judge bench to hear the RTE Case in 2014 involving a large number of petitioners underPramati Educational and Cultural Society.

On May 9th 2014, a week before Narendra Modi led BJP swept into power on a massive mandate – the 93rd Amendment was held to be constitutional by a 5 – Judge bench in Pramati Educational & Cultural … vs Union Of India & Ors 6 May 2014 .

While departing, the Idea of India ecosystem had managed to secure its crown jewel. This is where we stand now.

Fall outs of the 93rd Amendment
Post the 93rd amendment, sectarianism in education has taken deep root. Minority colleges have flourished. Even aided minority colleges are exempt from quotas that are applicable to fully unaided Hindu run colleges. The trajectory of the education scene can be best illustrated by a Jan 2014 judgment in Madras High Court Federation of Catholic Faithful vs State of Tamilnadu Jan 2014

In the light of the above said judgment, even in respect of aided courses run by minority colleges, there cannot be any direction to follow the rule of communal reservation.
 
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I think you are a little too eager to read between the lines and be offended, when no insult was ever meant or implied. No where have I said that Hindus are lazier than anyone else, and I don't know how anyone could ever make such a silly assertion unless their heads are firmly planted in their b***ts. ( by this I mean the head of the person implying that laziness and religion are somehow linked, Not you )

What I am saying is that there is obviously a lot wrong with the policies in this country that Hindus feel so aggrieved. These policies need to be remedied. People are not against it as you think. Missionaries do not really have as much support as you think in the Christian community, many Xians will quietly cheer from the sidelines if the grip of the church over the flock could be loosened a little bit, at least enough to breathe easier.

The government needs to communicate without attacking anyone. No body is going to object if Hindu temples are brought under the control of the priests. Why has Varnasi not been cleaned up in so many years? Does any other religion do this to their most sacred place? Who can you blame except yourself? If tax advantages are being given to chrisitan schools but not to Hindu schools, I can't think why , did the British start that ? If so surely it needs to change as of yesterday, these schools make a lot of profit and it is blatantly unfair to subsidize it. There is no point getting mad at Christians because Hindu/ atheist/mccaulayites or whoever has obviously been taking you for a ride. The fixing needs to start at home.
 
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I think you are a little too eager to read between the lines and be offended, when no insult was ever meant or implied. No where have I said that Hindus are lazier than anyone else, and I don't know how anyone could ever make such a silly assertion unless their heads are firmly planted in their b***ts. ( by this I mean the head of the person implying that laziness and religion are somehow linked, Not you )

What I am saying is that there is obviously a lot wrong with the policies in this country that Hindus feel so aggrieved. These policies need to be remedied. People are not against it as you think. Missionaries do not really have as much support as you think in the Christian community, many Xians will quietly cheer from the sidelines if the grip of the church over the flock could be loosened a little bit, at least enough to breathe easier.

The government needs to communicate without attacking anyone. No body is going to object if Hindu temples are brought under the control of the priests. Why has Varnasi not been cleaned up in so many years? Does any other religion do this to their most sacred place? Who can you blame except yourself? If tax advantages are being given to chrisitan schools but not to Hindu schools, I can't think why , did the British start that ? If so surely it needs to change as of yesterday, these schools make a lot of profit and it is blatantly unfair to subsidize it. There is no point getting mad at Christians because Hindu/ atheist/mccaulayites or whoever has obviously been taking you for a ride. The fixing needs to start at home.

There is a lot of naiveness in your post. You do not have to go too far in the past to know how coordinated the church and believers are in their attempt to thwart majoritarian rule. Just the recent attempts by the church to vilify the Modi govt which included all denominations coming together should be enough. In the last assembly elections in Karnataka, BJP was barred by Christian housing societies from canvasing in their societies. The community is too very vested in keeping its privileges. Christians may be aggrieved by the evangelicals poaching from their own churches but they will happily cheer on any poaching that happens to the Hindus.

This is not the first time either. The did the same when Vajpayee's govt was in power. They did the same in 1977. Read Robert Rozario's writtings to understand how deeply corrupt the church is and how invested the believers are in protecting its status quo.

The govt so far has not said a word on Christians leave alone attack anyone. The only person who questioned was Rajnath Singh and he did so in the context of opposition to Ghar Wapsi. Even here he was careful not to attack any church denomination.

Why has Varanasi not been cleaned up so far? Why has Mathura a derelict look. Why are all Hindu temple towns such a mess? Because doing anything for Hindus was supposed to be majoritarian bias and tending towards majority's religious sentiments. The state endevoured to de-Hinduize its population in the belief that Hinduism represents backwardness and superstitious belief in idolatory. So the push was to wean off Hindus from their religion through benign neglect at the best or taxation and ridicule at the worst.
 
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everything you say about Chrisitian housing societies etc etc may be completely true.... That is called Politics. India is not the only place in the world that minorities organize to bargain for rights but no where else do politicians sell their own communities up the river. Political pressure from minorities will always be there, we are a Democracy, and thank God for that, meeting organized resistance does not mean that you just lie down and offer yourself up in sacrifice.

You don't want to admit it but the fact is that the people who screwed you over were the sub standard politicians you voted in yourself.

....and you are right why has Mathura not been cleaned up , or Varnasi, why is it that when a temple has money people immediately want to loot it for the " welfare state ". Have you seen the Vatican or Mecca ? . There is a difference. If you don't stand up for yourself, nobody else can do it for you and hitting out won't make it any better .
 
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everything you say about Chrisitian housing societies etc etc may be completely true.... That is called Politics. India is not the only place in the world that minorities organize to bargain for rights but no where else do politicians sell their own communities up the river. Political pressure from minorities will always be there, we are a Democracy, and thank God for that, meeting organized resistance does not mean that you just lie down and offer yourself up in sacrifice.

You don't want to admit it but the fact is that the people who screwed you over were the sub standard politicians you voted in yourself.

....and you are right why has Mathura not been cleaned up , or Varnasi, why is it that when a temple has money people immediately want to loot it for the " welfare state ". Have you seen the Vatican or Mecca ? . There is a difference. If you don't stand up for yourself, nobody else can do it for you and hitting out won't make it any better .

What happened in India was an information blackout. The state and the Western educated lot controlled the media and controlled the content which was available to the masses. The masses were screwed because they trusted the govt as it was run by people with Hindu sounding names.

A lot of people are aware now and a lot more are waking up due to social media. So I am standing up for myself, and when I post info here I hope more and more Hindus read it and wake up to reality.
 
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What happened in India was an information blackout. The state and the Western educated lot controlled the media and controlled the content which was available to the masses. The masses were screwed because they trusted the govt as it was run by people with Hindu sounding names.

A lot of people are aware now and a lot more are waking up due to social media. So I am standing up for myself, and when I post info here I hope more and more Hindus read it and wake up to reality.



Cool. :cheers:
 
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And who was in the government ? Other Hindus right ? So why are you blaming Christians if Hindu temples are under govt. control? Hindus need to be assertive. I don't think any Chrisitan would have a problem with control of Hindu temples being given to the priests. It's a no brainer.

Hindus played politics with Hindus now you can't cry foul . Fix it . But not by blaming Chrisitans or insulting Muslims. You have no one to blame but your own stupid policies.
This is true. Harsh. But true. The primary blame must be borne by the cowards, err I mean Hindu psecular/liberals. They got help, but that's all.
 
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