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General Kayani spills the beans

I agree that the fault lies with the Civilian leadership. we elected such douchebags that are filling their own pockets but are not ready to spend a penny of the public money on raising a better future for the nation.

however, I dont consider army establishment to be the saints here, they played their traditional role.

So you are saying that the leadership is not to be blamed.

Hold them(The masses) accountable. What is stopping you? Say it in public.
I may have pricked a nerve here. How can you abuse the leadership? Abuse the public ! this is what is required for change.

The leaders are a result of public whims. I have never witnessed such a "victimised" populace as is Pakistan. Ready to blame all without an ounce of introspect on where the fault actually lies.
 
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So you are saying that the leadership is not to be blamed.

Hold them(The masses) accountable. What is stopping you? Say it in public.
I may have pricked a nerve here. How can you abuse the leadership? Abuse the public ! this is what is required for change.

The leaders are a result of public whims. I have never witnessed such a victimised populace such as Pakistan. Ready to blame all without an ounce of introspect on where the fault actually lies.

you never need to quote me when you were giving Fatwas of your own.
 
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Joke of the century, i wonder what makes Kiani think that common people, media, judiciary will buy this BS.
Because he is a fauji, and his words are almost sacred in a country like Pakistan!!!!!!!! And with your critique, you are committing sedition, being ''bloody civilians'' we are not suppose to do that. :P
 
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Because he is a fauji, and his words are almost sacred in a country like Pakistan!!!!!!!! And with your critique, you are committing sedition, being ''bloody civilians'' we are not suppose to do that. :P

When you decide to take up a gun , & go to defend border of Pakistan , & when you take bullet coming towards every Pakistani on your chest , then I will Take your Words as Sacred as well .
 
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Experiment is doing experiment with you :omghaha:

mein nay kia baat ki or usnay rata rataya bharti fatwa day diya.... :D

I wonder if they can 'think' with their own brains, other than the rata ratya fatwa !
 
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When you decide to take up a gun , & go to defend border of Pakistan , & when you take bullet coming towards every Pakistani on your chest , then I will Take your Words as Sacred as well .
When you will defend East Pakistan, Kashmir, Kargil, Shias, territorial integrity of the country(no American choppers in Abbotabad or drones strikes :sick:) i wont only just respect your words............But wait, haven't we lost all that already.... ;)
 
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When you will defend East Pakistan, Kashmir, Kargil, Shias, territorial integrity of the country(no American choppers in Abbotabad or drones strikes :sick:) i wont only just respect your words............But wait, haven't we lost all that already.... ;)

Let me know when you die Trying to save the country , Or even actuality Try .

It is very easy to talk ... but you can only do just that .

I think further discussion with you will be a waste of my time .

Take Care
 
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Let me know when you die Trying to save the country , Or even actuality Try .

It is very easy to talk ... but you can only do just that .

I think further discussion with you will be a waste of my time .

Take Care
And let me know when all this fauji bravado would serve any purpose. Yes, you are right its pointless to argue over the facts. Good day.
 
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When you will defend East Pakistan, Kashmir, Kargil, Shias, territorial integrity of the country(no American choppers in Abbotabad or drones strikes :sick:) i wont only just respect your words............But wait, haven't we lost all that already.... ;)

East Pakistan and Kashmir arose from primarily political roots, not military. True that Kargil was a military misadventure of the highest order. Sectarian strife is a social, not a military issue. The Abbottabad raid and drone strikes are the lesser evils compared to the alternatives.

One must be careful in generalizing blame, and look at all causes before apportioning it.
 
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General Kayani spills the beans, blames others, raises doubts

Shaheen Sehbai

- See more at: General Kayani spills the beans, blames others, raises doubts - thenews.com.pk

DUBAI: General Kayani has finally spoken his heart out and the information trickling out from the not so off-the-record four-hour briefing is revealing as well as a cause for serious concern and a warning for the civilians and the country.

The bottom line General Kayani gave was that he wants free and fair elections and a peaceful transfer of power and everyone must respect the mandate of the people and for this the army will provide the maximum help, but only that much which is asked for by the civilians.

So in other words what the general said repeatedly was that no one should try to play games with the transparency and fairness of the elections and the results must be accepted but the army will not impose itself in any way and this job has to be done by the civilians themselves.

Yet while confirming that the army has pulled out of these, and almost all other, matters in the civilian domain, General Kayani gave a long list of civilian failures, almost a charge sheet against the politicians and the government and placed the blame of gigantic failures in many critical domains at the civilian doorstep.

Not to intervene is constitutionally and practically a very positive and constructive approach but in reality it has brought the country to the verge of a collapse and General Kayani realises that but does not want to share the blame.

Examples of the civilians’ failure that he quoted, in his own soft style and in a non-intrusive way, were many but a cool analysis of his thoughts and ideas reveals he has told the government and politicians they had messed up in a big way and no more of this mess-up can be afforded.

For instance, he says on the key issue of war against terrorism, the army is not to be blamed but the civilians have not formulated a comprehensive anti-terrorism policy and they could not decide what to do. They threw the ball in the court of the army without giving them policy guidelines, the targets to be achieved and the way that was to be done.

Repeatedly, he said that the army had not been consulted or taken on board about the political all parties conferences being held on counter terrorism.


General Kayani, in this context, quoted many examples and reminded the media men of the Swat situation where he said the President was persuaded by him to take a decision. He also took ANP leader Asfandyar Wali to the President and when the decision was taken to talk to Maulana Sufi Mohammed, the talks were held but when he violated the accord, an operation was launched. Then the civilians had to take over the responsibility which, he implied, they did not.

General Kayani specifically mentioned the arrests made in Swat and complained that if the arrested persons are not convicted because of lack of evidence, the army cannot hold them forever. For three-and-a-half years it is holding these people and is either violating laws by doing so or risks more terrorism if they are released.

Likewise, in Balochistan, General Kayani said, an army operation could be launched only if the civilians take that decision and order the army to do so. But once the operation is done and people are arrested, they will again have to be tried and convicted by the police and courts for which the civilians are not prepared and ready.

Similarly, he said the civilians depend too much and remain forever scared of the ISI and army intelligence agencies whereas the tasks should have been done by their own agencies.

All internal matters have to be handled by the civilians as the ISI has to look after external intelligence threats and the army has to secure borders. Where are the civilian agencies? he asked, in so many words, though politely.

General Kayani’s talk was almost a report card of failure of the interior ministry but he said in so many words that for five years the army took all these failures in its stride, and sometimes guided the civilians to reform and take ownership and responsibility yet did not intervene to stop the rot.

In my view, this was a very considered and deliberate policy as General Kayani and his colleagues knew the capacity of the civilians. They knew that these politicians will not be able to handle such colossal issues like the war on terror, the Balochistan mess, the fight against domestic extremism and fanaticism but they left everything to these immature and inexperienced or incompetent politicians so that the army may not be blamed and the onus of the disaster falls on the civilians.

Now he has explained his five years of non-interference by the army, failure of the civilians to cope and the resultant disasters in a four-hour session which can be summed up in one line: “Don’t blame us. Do something if you can.”

The tragedy is that General Kayani knows well that the 10 years of General Musharraf and the total dominance of the army, the persecution of politicians, the disarray in the political system, the physical threats to political leaders, their assassinations and mass murders, all meant that the politicians were not ready, although they had been voted into power because an election was held and that too under the threat of mass rebellion after Benazir Bhutto’s murder.

So there was no way the army could avoid an election but there was no way the civilians could correct everything messy that the generals were leaving behind.

Similar is the issue with the present elections. General Kayani is now saying that elections must be free, fair and transparent but the set-up that has been put in place is controversial, weak and fragile, weakest at the top.

In his four-hour talk he referred to this weakness of the ECP in his own way by recalling the famous meeting between him and Fakhru Bhai in which a briefing was given by the army to the CEC for over two hours but at the end Fakhru Bhai did not recognise General Kayani.

“Yes I am General Kayani” he told the ageing CEC but then also recalled the story of Alif Laila and the joke associated with it when after the whole night someone asked: “Was Zulekha a man or a woman”.
:lol:

By referring to Fakhru Bhai and speaking about his age and his capacity, General Kayani indirectly expressed doubts that he can handle such a gigantic task of holding the election. He also knows that politicians have nominated the other four members of the ECP and they are political nominees who can, and may, play games for their sponsors.

So when he says that elections must be fair and free, he is again shifting the blame to the civilians while knowing that they do not mean a fair business and they will do the mischief in their own ways. He is not ready to interfere but is only asking them not to try. Yet he has walked out of providing army cover to the polls saying he cannot spare 200,000 troops. Fakhru Bhai has been left high and dry, on his own.

So if the politicians don’t listen to the army chief, the bottom line is that nothing will happen. Kayani has already, and in the same meeting, announced that he will retire later this year, or just after a few months after the elections. The politicians can even cut that period short by announcing his replacement three months ahead of the date. So the politicians will play around and the general will go home, leaving the mess for the people to face.

His clearest warning was on the economy and again he blamed the civilians entirely for the failure. He recounted so many instances and asked do you blame the army for this, for that and for everything. He, however, allowed the corrupt civilians to do the damage before his own eyes.

The media lot sitting in front of him, it looks, did not disagree with him on this count. But a pile of dirt, mixed with ***** and stink left behind by the army after years of misrule cannot be cleared so easily, when the army pulls itself into a corner and does not stop even the most glaring and blatant violations of the laws and Constitution.

What General Kayani could have done, and has not done, was to strengthen and reassure the institutions which can check the incompetent civilians to place strong checks and corrections at every stage, so that things would not have come so near to collapse. When General Kayani retires, as he would in a few months later this year, he would be judged as another leader of the Gorbachev kind. Will he like to be called General Gorbachev?

Note : this is unbelievable, when the army dosent interfer in politics than the cilvilians specially the journalists have a prob and when it does they have a prob.
truely the army is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

My impression is that after the coup of Musharaf, the Army in Pakistan somehow went to backseat in politics as it was active in 80-90....Even being an outsider, i can see that this kind of positive change has started from Musharaf era..Although you people do not like that Musharaf, but still then i think he created a change in perception withing Army people that democracy even is beneifitial for the image of Army in the long run....And apart from that ...Mr Kiyani seems to be a person who talks less and works more in substance...So i feel he is a good person as a Army chief that Pakistan should be proud of to get him...
 
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For half time civilians have ruled, for half time Army has, so why all the blame on one party ?

Politicians, Soldiers, Businessmen, Police, Intelligence officers and voters, all come from same population. Pakistani people gave and elected these politicians. Generals like Zia also came from Pakistani home.

What I also see is that Army wants people to call them to rule if free and fair elections don't happen and people protest against it in every part of the country.

Just like people in Baluchistan are now asking for Army to take over.

Accountability and Responsibility extends to all sphere of population and administration. I still think that majority of people now want military rule especially in Army and certain section of society. They don't believe in any Politician.

How long this to and fro movement will keep on going for Military-Civilian rule ?
 
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Joke of the century, i wonder what makes Kiani think that common people, media, judiciary will buy this BS.

Unfortunately that is harsh truth, military pushed Talibans out of Swat and the job was left over to civilians but they miserably failed to establish civilian writ instead the provincial government has been busy in easy loads and same has been practice by federal government. the interest of governments can be clearly seen that neither head of state or head of government bothered to visit these war affected people. result , army is still committed there. In FATA civilian government failed to takeover control from cleared areas. This civilian government was protected by military and opposition but this support was used for other objectives. Let not leave these politicians so easily.
 
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That is the thing !

-the army is saying that for the last five years the govt. and its allies have been sending us left and right to fight this and that and now when their own turn came they want talks with the militants/terrorists.
- the terrorits have been defeated and have been pushed back into afghanistan ir have been killed. swat, shangla, Dir and malakand agency were the first once to be cleaned from the menance of the terrorits. than momand, Bajur, khyber, kurram, south waziristan were cleansed and finally orakzai.only certain areas of north waziristan agency remain. Peace has been largly restored to all these areas, so much so that IDPs have stated to return to their homes. curfew has been lifted on most parts.
- army has taken the lead in resettlement of the ied and has initated and completed quite a few development wroks in the area.
- army recieved no help fro the govt. and had to do it all on its own, so much so that it had to post retired army personal to occupy the posts of civil admin. and in other cases had to forces other departments to do their job !
-it has all been achived at great sacrifice.
- the terrorists have been pushed out of the area and have no space to operate, so in desperation and to gain time they initated this drama of peace.
-JUI which is the political face of the terrorists has been under a lot of preassure from the terrorits to bail them out. so they initated all this to safe their own skin and in the process help the terrorists
-the govt and it allies are doing it all to save their own skins as they are telling the terrorits with all these apc is that look we are willing to talk so plz spare us during the elections and than we will reach peace with u.
- with the americans leaving afg. next year and ttp is not on good terms with the taliban as it a proxy of, CIA, raw and mossad and has been trained and financed by them. so ttp sees no future in afg. as well. so they are desperate and will get more desperate the closer the date for the us/nato mithdrawl draws near.

all in all at this stage when the terrorirts have been margainilized to a great extent the army will not allow the politicians to help the terrorits to gaina foot hold again.
 
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Buck passing in the govt is bad, it's awful - but why is buck passing in the army OK? -- Mr. Gen. Kiyani did not need to spend 4 hours off the record - all he had to do was to say that the Army is Pakistan's army and acts as directed by the government and within it's constitutional ambit -- but Nooo, the Army wants to play politician, it wants to be able to Bit-ch at the civilians, it wants to be able to blame the civilians for the failures of the army

Whhoooaa!! What failures? Mister!!

Listen up! The function of the army is to defend Pakistanis and their property and to do this it must kill the enemies of the Pakistani nation and State -- Understand?? No if's, No buts -- but as any Pakistani Army officer (Surrender with dishonor) will tell you, war is just "politics" --- and it might have been in times past and may well be the case in the future, BUT if it the case in present, then what is the Army and Mr. Gen. Kiyani bit-ching about? After all, had they killed the enemy of the nation and state, there would not have been any need for this bit-ching, right?? or wrong??

Look, the politicians, they are useless, but can the army win over the Pakistani nation by pointing fingers or by proving that they are efficient and through when it comes to the killing of the enemies of the nation and state??
 
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