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From Russia With Love? China vs. India Carrier Showdown

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There’s a pronounced aerial component to Asia’s march to the seas.

The Indian Navy’s newest aircraft carrier, the soon-to-be-commissioned INS Vikramaditya, recently took to the Barents Sea for its second shakedown cruise. After putting the ship through its paces, the Russian shipyard Sevmash will reportedly deliver it to the Indian Navy at year’s end—culminating a prolonged, painful, sometimes comical overhaul process that converted the Soviet “aircraft-carrying cruiser” Admiral Gorshkov into a more conventional flattop featuring a ski jump for vaulting short-takeoff warplanes into the skies.

Meanwhile, China’s first carrier, the Soviet-built vessel formerly known as Varyag, is underway for its longest sea trials since first casting off lines last summer. It will reportedly cruise the Bohai Sea for 25 days. Whether New Delhi and Beijing intend to build blue-water fleets around carrier task forces is no longer in question. They do, and they are.

Which aspiring sea power has the advantage in carrier aviation, China or India?

Tough to say.

China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLA Navy) probably gets the nod from a purely material standpoint, whereas the Indian Navy holds the edge in the all-important human dimension.

One caveat. I’ve come to doubt how meaningful side-by-side comparisons of armaments are when abstracted from their larger political, strategic, and geographic context. They have an unearthly feel. Battle is the arbiter of which force is superior. Myriad factors like geographic distance, logistics, the number and capability of escort ships, and the availability and striking power of shore-based fire support shape tactical engagements. Indeed, they can decide the outcome.

Think about it. If the two fleets met in the China seas, Chinese commanders would bring not just the PLA Navy surface fleet but short-range submarines, aircraft flying from airfields ashore, and land-based anti-ship missiles to bear—massing far more firepower than the fleet alone could manage. The pattern would reverse itself if a clash took place in the Bay of Bengal. Indian commanders could hurl additional assets into the fray, taking advantage of short distances to the theater and nearby manpower, land-based platforms, and bases.


It cannot be repeated too many times: sea power is more than the navy. It’s hard to isolate and measure two navies’ relative combat power short of assigning them a set of coordinates far from either belligerent’s shores—how about the Weddell Sea, adjacent to Antarctica, or the South Atlantic?—and instructing them to meet there to fight it out. That would come close to excluding all external variables. In other words, it’s hard to run a controlled experiment to gauge naval power.

All of that being said, it’s worth examining each platform to see what it may bring to a sea fight. The Vikramaditya/Gorshkov displaces about 45,000 tons fully loaded—that is, including the air wing, the crew, fuel, stores, and everything else a man-of-war needs to ply the briny deep. For comparison’s sake, that’s a tad bigger than a US Navy Essex-class fleet carrier of World War II vintage. It approximates the dimensions of today’s big-deck U.S. Navy amphibious assault ships (LHA or LHD).

The Varyag, on the other hand, weighs in at a bit over 67,000 tons fully loaded. That’s roughly the size of the modernized USS Midway, the retired supercarrier that now adorns the San Diego waterfront as a museum ship. Size matters. With bigger hulls comes greater hangar and flight-deck space, and thus the capacity to accommodate a larger, more diverse air wing.

And to be sure, the Varyag will reportedly carry about 26 fixed-wing combat aircraft—the official People’s Daily speculated that J-15s will operate from its deck for the first time during the ongoing shakedown—and about 24 helicopters. (I hem-and-haw on the exact figures because an air wing’s composition is not fixed. The U.S. Navy has experimented with various configurations over the years.) The Vikramaditya/Gorshkov’s complement is a more modest 16 tactical aircraft—Mig-29Ks were part of the package deal for the ship—and 10 helicopters. The Chinese carrier’s fighter/attack force, then, is over half-again as large as its Indian counterpart’s. Quantity isn’t everything, but it is important in air-to-air combat. Advantage: China.

It’s worth pointing out, however, that both ships are modest in capability relative to their nuclear-powered U.S. Navy brethren, each of which displaces over 100,000 tons and can carry an air wing numbering some 90 fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft—nearly double the complement for the Varyag. It’s also worth recalling that both ships are Soviet relics, and that the Soviet Navy never quite got carrier aviation right. Whether Russian or Chinese shipwrights have managed to correct any lingering design defects remains to be seen. Whatever the case, it’s fair to say that Beijing and New Delhi are fielding what some wags term “starter carriers” in the Varyag and Vikramaditya. Both navies are pursuing indigenously built carriers for their future fleets.

My guess is that the Indian Navy commands a significant advantage over the PLA Navy in the domains of airmanship and seamanship. As the late U.S. Air Force colonel John Boyd liked to quip, machines don’t fight wars; people, ideas, and hardware—in that order!—are the determinants of competitive enterprises. There is a reason we call it a trial of arms. Many outcomes are possible when human wills interact.

Indians seem to excel at air power. U.S. Air Force pilots who face off against their Indian counterparts in mock combat rave about the skills and panache of Indian airmen. And while the Vikramaditya is a new class of flattop and the MiG-29K a new aircraft for the Indian Navy, carrier operations are nothing new for the navy. The service has operated at least one flattop for over half a century. For example, INS Viraat, a Centaur*-class vessel built for Britain’s Royal Navy, has served in the Indian fleet for a quarter-century. In short, Indian mariners are steeped in a naval-aviation culture that the Chinese are only starting to instill. Advantage: India.

Both Chinese and Indian flattops—like all warships, and indeed all weapon systems—remain “black boxes” until actually used in battle against real opponents pounding away at them. This is true even of the U.S. Navy, which fought its last major fleet engagement at Leyte Gulf in 1944. Payloads, weapon ranges, and sensor characteristics can look impressive on paper, but weaponry often underperforms the technical characteristics reported in the pages of Jane’s Fighting Ships. Faulty manufacturing, inadequate doctrine or tactics, and less-than-proficient users are only some of the countless variables that can open a chasm between promise and performance.

Observers must keep trying to appraise how platforms will perform in real-world combat. But let’s do so while keeping the political, strategic, and operational context in which battle takes place squarely in view. Numbers tell only part of the tale.

James Holmes is an associate professor of strategy at the U.S. Naval War College. The views voiced here are his alone.

From Russia With Love? China vs. India Carrier Showdown | Flashpoints
 
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I don't think the relationship between these two countries will last long.
 
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3 ACCs within the next decade and the 50+ years of expertise that Indian navy carries with it in managing ACCs is too hot to handle for Chinese navy which is still on the verge of having its first ACC .

Coupled with the fact that India has its thousands of KM of natural ACC in Andaman and nicobar Islands acts as a force multiplier vis a vis China which will be forced to squeeze through the narrow channels of SCS .
 
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Indians seem to excel at air power. U.S. Air Force pilots who face off against their Indian counterparts in mock combat rave about the skills and panache of Indian airmen. And while the Vikramaditya is a new class of flattop and the MiG-29K a new aircraft for the Indian Navy, carrier operations are nothing new for the navy. The service has operated at least one flattop for over half a century. For example, INS Viraat, a Centaur*-class vessel built for Britain’s Royal Navy, has served in the Indian fleet for a quarter-century. In short, Indian mariners are steeped in a naval-aviation culture that the Chinese are only starting to instill. Advantage: India.

that's a piple dream,and India has the worst fighter crash rate in the world.

India no match to China in air-power


Gandhi Nagar, Sep 23: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik Wednesday said India’s air force was inadequate and just one-third the size of China's and therefore was going in for more acquisitions to enhance its capability.


Naik also downplayed reports of Chinese air incursions along the Line of Actual Control (LAC). “As far as Air Force is concerned there are no incursions anywhere (across Indian border)”.


“Our present aircraft strength is inadequate. We have one third of the Chinese numbers. And that is why we are going for more,” Naik said echoing the just retired naval chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta's concern that the country neither has the capability nor the intention to match China force for force.


The air chief's comments come against the backdrop of media reports about Chinese army and air "incursions" into India in the past several weeks.


"We are not downplaying the challenges before us. But there is a strategy to handle it. One can either deal with it sternly or play cool and continue to develop capabilities," Naik said.


Naik further said that "the government is giving full support as far as the acquisition of these things are concerned in terms of finance or otherwise."


When asked about deployment or arrangement along the Indo-China border, he said, "We have increased our capabilities on land as well as in air." However, he declined to divulge more information.


On security arrangements at various borders, the Air Chief Marshal said, "We are using advance technology in border areas like cameras, motion detectors and maintaining air surveillance. We also use satellite surveillance."


Naik also said the country is faced by many challenges which are increasing day-by-day.


"So far the effect of all these challenges on Indian Air Force is that we have to be prepared for all kind of conflicts, starting from the top that is nuclear to the terrorist which is a lower spectrum conflict," he said.


"We have to acquire capabilities in order to meet the nations' aspirations," he added.


Naik said that all the challenges be it geo-political or within the country are equally important.


"Depending on the priority, all these challenges are being handled by developing capabilities not only of armed forces but also by looking into diplomatic and economic factors which form part of national security," he said.


haha,you better wake up and see what your navy chief says

India no match for China: Navy chief
Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times
New Delhi

Should war break out between India and China, we are doomed. Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta publicly admitted on Monday that India was no match for China and there was no way New Delhi could bridge the yawning gap in its capabilities against China. He said it would be foolhardy to compare the two nations as equals.

Mehta, who retires on August 31 at the age of 62, warned: “In military terms, both conventionally and unconventionally, we can neither have the capability nor the intention to match China force for force…”

It is rare for service chiefs in India to articulate their concerns loudly. The government disapproves of it. But when a chief makes such a prophesy, he has to be taken seriously.

His remarks come barely two months after former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said China was a greater threat to India than Pakistan as little was known about the communist nation’s combat capabilities.

He said Beijing was in the process of consolidating its comprehensive national power and creating formidable military capability. “Once that is done, China is likely to be more assertive on its claims, especially in the immediate neighbourhood,” said Mehta, who as the Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee, is the country’s senior most military commander.

His remarks come barely two months after former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said China was a greater threat to India than Pakistan as little was known about the communist nation’s combat capabilities.

He saw ominous signs everywhere while delivering a talk on India’s national security challenges on Monday. “Whether in terms of GDP, defence spending or any other economic, social or development parameter, the gap between the two is just too wide to bridge (and getting wider by the day).”

Mehta backed his claims with figures. He said India’s annual defence expenditure of roughly $30 billion paled in front of China’s defence spending. He said the Americans pegged China’s defence budget between $70 billion and $200 billion.

“Our trust deficit with China can never be liquidated unless our boundary problems are resolved…Coping with China will certainly be one of our primary challenges in the years ahead.”
 
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already posted...mod should merge this thread with other one..
 
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that's a piple dream,and India has the worst fighter crash rate in the world.

haha,you better wake up and see what your navy chief says

read the line again
Indians seem to excel at air power. U.S. Air Force pilots who face off against their Indian counterparts in mock combat rave about the skills and panache of Indian airmen.

why is that so hard to understand?

about what the navy chief said, he is correct. india cannot match china force to force, ie ship to ship.

but then indian military have an exceptional record of winning when outnumbered, unlike china of course
 
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Varyag has nothing to do with Russia. It was built by Soviet Union and purchased by China from post-Soviet Ukraine. :rofl:
 
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