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Fareed Zakaria: Let’s be honest, Islam has a problem right now

When we rebel, the rest of the world opposes us for opposing democracy. When we don't, the rest of the world opposes us for supporting terrorists. Muslims just can't win.

Here lies the problem.

There is a place between rebelling & supporting terrorists & thats what is missing.

The change has to come from within & one does have to rebel or go to war for that. No one has to ' win' , we have to co exist & for that empathy and sensitivity to each others ( read religions) concerns is necessary.
 
Here lies the problem.

There is a place between rebelling & supporting terrorists & thats what is missing.

The change has to come from within & one does have to rebel or go to war for that. No one has to ' win' , we have to co exist & for that empathy and sensitivity to each others ( read religions) concerns is necessary.
And what would you suggest, how do we accelerate that change from within? Look, its very easy to sit outside and criticise, it's very difficult to actually do something.
 
Car is far advanced to need maintenance but owners to adapt to it or atleast understand it before going around and ramming it...



Because the passengers have no idea what the car is capable of...they just believe what people tell them....they refuse to explore it and study it from the experts but out of experience (of ramming into lampposts and other humans) they are finding it is good to kill people too....and the world ends up seeing the accidents ONLY

Friend, we are now coming to the crux of it all.

The Car ( Islam) is well designed & crafted , its those running it that need to be jerked out of their comfort zone of not being questioned. This can only be done by the educated followers of that religion.

The passengers ( followers) need to take control of themselves & their destiny and stop being led like sheep. Are they any less educated than their leaders ? or can they not read ? Why should one man ( or men) decide whats good for millions ? More so when the decisions taken thus for are obviously wrong ?

Its something a non Muslim like me cannot comment upon beyond a point which I feel I have reached. Its after all an internal thing.

The world judges a book by the cover or by its review - no one has the time or inclination to read all books all the time - we have a life of our own & need to ' read' and correct our ' books' too.

And what would you suggest, how do we accelerate that change from within? Look, its very easy to sit outside and criticise, it's very difficult to actually do something.

Read post above.
 
So long as the highlighted parts are the corner stones of thinking - the problem remains.
Which part are you talking about, the one that says politicians use religion to justify their unfair and wrong wars or the one that says the US's claims of spreading democracy are BS, or both?
Both are correct and both are the truth.
If you think being mature enough to realise what's BS is a "problem", keep your solutions with yourself.

Friend, we are now coming to the crux of it all.

The Car ( Islam) is well designed & crafted , its those running it that need to be jerked out of their comfort zone of not being questioned. This can only be done by the educated followers of that religion.

The passengers ( followers) need to take control of themselves & their destiny and stop being led like sheep. Are they any less educated than their leaders ? or can they not read ? Why should one man ( or men) decide whats good for millions ? More so when the decisions taken thus for are obviously wrong ?

Its something a non Muslim like me cannot comment upon beyond a point which I feel I have reached. Its after all an internal thing.

The world judges a book by the cover or by its review - no one has the time or inclination to read all books all the time - we have a life of our own & need to ' read' and correct our ' books' too..
I agree, Muslims need to start being educated and need to start understanding Islam themselves and not blindly following what their Mullahs tell them - they need to start driving the 'well designed and crafted' car themselves.
Now, how do you achieve this? I always agreed with what you said above, in fact my very first reply to this thread was exactly this. The problem is, how do you do it, how do you reform MUSLIMS (not ISLAM)? It's not one man that can just get up and start reforming Muslims. Change will come, just slowly. If you have any suggestions on how we can speed up this change, do let me know.
 
This is just the point the rest of the world is wondering - why , Oh why are the ' passengers ' allowing the ' drivers' to take them up the garden path ! Don't they see the harm thats come to them ?
lets get one thing clear… its not one of those new google cars that drives it self…. this car have to be driven by the driver.

This is just the point the rest of the world is wondering - why , Oh why are the ' passengers ' allowing the ' drivers' to take them up the garden path ! Don't they see the harm thats come to them ?
the driver is either drunk… because the car isn't taking him anywhere… he takes the car where he wants.
if the driver is drunk you can't blame the accident on the car.
 
You even read that article? This is really a marvelous piece of writing.
Farid Zakaria became the Muslim of service...He replaced Adjami. For guy who swim in plagiarism, a mention of his name here, is an insult to PDF.
 
Friend, we are now coming to the crux of it all.

The Car ( Islam) is well designed & crafted , its those running it that need to be jerked out of their comfort zone of not being questioned.

The passengers ( followers) need to take control of themselves & their destiny and stop being led like sheep. Are they any less educated than their leaders ? or can they not read ? Why should one man ( or men) decide whats good for millions ? More so when the decisions taken thus for are obviously wrong ?
None of that is part has anything to do with Islam...Islam doesnt say go sit next to your pir or ask your neighbourhood mullah who doesnt even have a degree but asks one to seek knowledge for themselves even if they have to go as far as China (implying the distance and the need to explore as far as needed to gain this important stuff called knowledge)

The world judges a book by the cover or by its review - no one has the time or inclination to read all books all the time - we have alife of our own & need to ' read' and correct our ' books' too.
You see the saying dont judge a book by its cover was created for this very purpose for narrow minded people...who just are quick to judge without knowing ....and guess what they are missing out the cool interesting story within the book

Farid Zakaria became the Muslim of service...He replaced Adjami. For guy who swim in plagiarism, a mention of his name here, is an insult to PDF.
Zakaria was born in Mumbai, Maharashtra, India, to a Muslim family His father, Rafiq Zakaria, was a politician associated with the Indian National Congress and anIslamic scholar. His mother, Fatima Zakaria, was for a time the editor of the Sunday Times of India.

Enough said right there ^^
 
None of that is part has anything to do with Islam...Islam doesnt say go sit next to your pir or ask your neighbourhood mullah who doesnt even have a degree but asks one to seek knowledge for themselves even if they have to go as far as China (implying the distance and the need to explore as far as needed to gain this important stuff called knowledge)

You see the saying dont judge a book by its cover was created for this very purpose for narrow minded people...who just are quick to judge without knowing ....and guess what they are missing out the cool interesting story within the book
One of the main points of Islam was knowledge, I agree with you. Unfortunately, it appears Muslims have strayed from these teachings of Islam. The Muslim world once produced the likes of Al Khwarzimi, Al Haytham and Ibn Sina, now we're just too busy ripping out each others' throats.

If Islam was the problem, all the Muslim scientists wouldn't have been able to do what they did, especially when Islam was at its peak.
 
You missed my point.

This is it - Killing for money, oil etc can be understood. Human beings are the vilest creatures on earth and them killing other people for material/other greed is one thing. But killing in the name of God is the worst form of hypocrisy. It is the worst murder.

If there is a God, he/she/it would hang head in shame.

When someone starts killing Muslims for their money, Oil , Gas and what have you. They fight back in the name of God, since he is the most just. First they are not the aggressors, second, they defend themselves against superior forces by counting on their abilities and their faith in GOD, since for the believers, he is the most capable, and this particular belief makes the strength of their opponent appear much lower than the latter wants it to be perceived as. The other thing that their belief in GOD gives them is the dissolution of the fear of death, a fact that marks their strength in the battle field, since they believe in justice, they fight for it in the name of GOD the most just with total confidence in him.
 
Which part are you talking about, the one that says politicians use religion to justify their unfair and wrong wars or the one that says the US's claims of spreading democracy are BS, or both?
Both are correct and both are the truth.
If you think being mature enough to realise what's BS is a "problem", keep your solutions with yourself.


I agree, Muslims need to start being educated and need to start understanding Islam themselves and not blindly following what their Mullahs tell them - they need to start driving the 'well designed and crafted' car themselves.
Now, how do you achieve this? I always agreed with what you said above, in fact my very first reply to this thread was exactly this. The problem is, how do you do it, how do you reform MUSLIMS (not ISLAM)? It's not one man that can just get up and start reforming Muslims. Change will come, just slowly. If you have any suggestions on how we can speed up this change, do let me know.

You have hit the nail on the head - bold part above.

The beauty is that no reform to my mind is needed.Nothing needs to be done - things only have to be undone.

To illustrate my point I shall take an example of Pakistan , you could apply it to Islamic world with local variations.

Was the Pakistan of the 60s & 70s any less Islamic than it is today ? Were those who were young then lesser followers of the faith ? In my opinion the answer should be No. Why then has a nation allowed itself to be hijacked by a select few beginning with a dictator who hung his PM ?

Why then has such a change happened ? Back then Pak was fully integrated with the world now it is not.

Religion is a personal thing and cannot be worn on the arm, sure it needs its space & must have it but within that space only. Its for its followers to define that space. Why have the Mullahs become so powerful so as to dictate social life ? You fly a Pak & Brit flag and must see the difference between the 2 societies.

Is it being suggested ( by the Mullahs who have become so powerful now ) that your Dad or Grand dads generation were lesser followers of Islam ?

These and such questions need to be answered and a possible solution with come from within - an outsider cannot do so.

Zakaria was born in Mumbai, Maharashtra, India, to a Muslim family His father, Rafiq Zakaria, was a politician associated with the Indian National Congress and anIslamic scholar. His mother, Fatima Zakaria, was for a time the editor of the Sunday Times of India.

Enough said right there ^^

So..?

Just because he has Indian roots he becomes a lesser Muslim or what ?

He is a thinking Muslim just as Jinnah and / or Maulana Azad was.

Dont shoot the messenger.
 
So..?
Just because he has Indian roots he becomes a lesser Muslim or what ?
He is a thinking Muslim just as Jinnah and / or Maulana Azad was.
Dont shoot the messenger.
Not shooting but I already pointed out Islam is also diverse based on the culture of the person adhering to it...because majority prefer culture over religion....they just change the name of their religion but never drop their culture...it kinda speaks heaps and I never said lesser Muslim why are you jumping to conclusion?

And I highlighted the politician bit but of course that part you didnt see....
 
You have hit the nail on the head - bold part above.

The beauty is that no reform to my mind is needed.Nothing needs to be done - things only have to be undone.

To illustrate my point I shall take an example of Pakistan , you could apply it to Islamic world with local variations.

Was the Pakistan of the 60s & 70s any less Islamic than it is today ? Were those who were young then lesser followers of the faith ? In my opinion the answer should be No. Why then has a nation allowed itself to be hijacked by a select few beginning with a dictator who hung his PM ?

Why then has such a change happened ? Back then Pak was fully integrated with the world now it is not.

Religion is a personal thing and cannot be worn on the arm, sure it needs its space & must have it but within that space only. Its for its followers to define that space. Why have the Mullahs become so powerful so as to dictate social life ? You fly a Pak & Brit flag and must see the difference between the 2 societies.

Is it being suggested ( by the Mullahs who have become so powerful now ) that your Dad or Grand dads generation were lesser followers of Islam ?

These and such questions need to be answered and a possible solution with come from within - an outsider cannot do so.
I agree with you completely. In fact, the age of Muslim scientists and thinkers was actually more Islamic than today's muslim world.
Was the Pakistan of the 60s & 70s any less Islamic than it is today ? Were those who were young then lesser followers of the faith ? In my opinion the answer should be No
Your opinion in this case is correct, they were not lesser followers of the faith. Actually many of today's Muslims are lesser followers because they disregard all the parts of Islam that preach peace and knowledge while focusing on only what they want to follow.
Why then has such a change happened ? Back then Pak was fully integrated with the world now it is not.
I really don't want to get into a debate about Pakistan's army dictators and internal politics as Its off topic but I agree with what you're trying to say. Mistakes were made, now we need to undo them. Inshaallah, we will.

Is it being suggested ( by the Mullahs who have become so powerful now ) that your Dad or Grand dads generation were lesser followers of Islam ?
Discussing what the Mullahs suggest is a waste of time, they suggest many, many things and most of them are absolutely wrong, from both an Islamic perspective and a common sense and morality perspective.

These and such questions need to be answered and a possible solution with come from within - an outsider cannot do so.
I agree - but it will take time. Mistakes made over a period of centuries can't be undone instantly, it will take time.

Glad that we could have a civilized discussion and actually agree on something, it rarely happens in discussions about religion.
:cheers:
 
Not shooting but I already pointed out Islam is also diverse based on the culture of the person adhering to it...because majority prefer culture over religion....they just change the name of their religion but never drop their culture...it kinda speaks heaps and I never said lesser Muslim why are you jumping to conclusion?

And I highlighted the politician bit but of course that part you didnt see....

I saw it.

So what if they are politicians , does it negate the article in question ?

Even Maulana Azad was a politician & a Muslim albeit an educated one, does he stand at a disadvantage because of it ?
 
a Muslim albeit an educated one
but you also forgot the other bit I highlighted:


politician associated with the Indian National Congress and an Islamic scholar.
Politics plus scholar....In India that literally means scholar ...btw, it says on his wiki he is a cleric ....and not a mention about his religious education to get that title....
 
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