Fareed Zakaria: Let’s be honest, Islam has a problem right now

[MilSpec]

Syria, Iran, KSA, Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia combined have not invaded as many nations as the US has in the past few years. They have plenty of weapons but how much do they use them? I never heard of Malaysia or Indonesia or Turkey or KSA carpet bombing some country thousands of miles away from it - It's always the "extra civilized, modern" countries that do that.
Muslim countries do back proxies - they have interests too. Why, is it only non-Muslims that can have geopolitical interests? I never doubted that Muslim countries do selectively condemn and support militants based on their interests, it's just that Muslims aren't the only ones doing it. The whole world does it and does it a lot, only difference is they cover their tracks better.
And no, poorly trained and poorly armed militant proxies are not "more ruthless and more effective" than Military contractors. The militants just get more media coverage.

I absolutely agree that muslim nations though having the capability did not carpet bomb either taliban, isis or any other operator, why didn't they....
Remember nations/societies who do not act become irrelevant.... why did the islamic empire in the past thrive, - Imo, because they were proactive, they protected their interests with decisive actions, they did not foster proxies.... Today there is a paradigm shift in the geo-political equations and the Islamic states are still asleep with what we Indians call as "chalta hai attitude"...
Then there are confusing identity, are there such things called as muslim nations? or are they syria, KSA, UAE, Egypt etc... Now if these nations are only interested in thier own interests, then forget the entire muslim identity and stop taking offense to muslim references... If it is otherwise, then protect Syria from Isis, protect Afghans from taliban, not by sending mujhhideens but by sending those shiny jets and million dollar tanks. Take responsibility of the muslim world, the muslim people and the muslim society......

That's a good question, one that I ask too.
It's not Muslims who let these terror organizations do anything - Its corrupt as$holes who just happen to be Muslims.
Normal Muslims are unfortunately too uneducated and confused to take any proper action. And all these recruitment operations you talk about are usually pretty damn clandestine and the fear factor is there. Such things usually happen in areas that are dominated by extremists.
It's so mixed up, so many factors, so many hurdles, It's not as easy as just standing up and saying you don't want terrorism. Everyone will agree with you on that. To really make a difference, one has to be in a certain position - now what I'm posting here is just the general idea, I can't claim to know what the real politics and clandestine system is that allows these terrorists to spread. I know for sure that it needs to stop, and that the problem is not Islam.
Someone who is in a higher position than us laymen could probably explain why and how terrorists manage to do what they want without facing consequences.
I hold Muslims responsible, including myself, but what exactly can we do?

Elect strong leader who will kick these dirtbags to the curb...Kick out the royalty who endorse such manipulations, kick out military dictators and take control.... Now all this rhetoric sounds sanctimonious, but this radical approach is the only pill that will cure radicalism.

I wrote multiple paragraphs blaming Muslims,in this post and in the one you quoted - I don't blame the rest of the world, so if you want to ask this question, ask someone who actually does blame the rest of the world.


Yes, actions are required - actions like bombing ISIS and aiding the locals, all are being taken. Incase you haven't been following the news, even IRAN is fighting ISIS.
INSIGHT-Iran's elite Guards fighting in Iraq to push back Islamic State| Reuters

As for the Bamiyan Buddhas



Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
CNN.com - World appeals to Taleban to stop destroying statues - March 3, 2001


DUDE! They sent very , very much aid to those affected by the Taliban and ISIS. Incase you didn't notice, Pakistan alone has launched multiple military operations and aid campaigns to help the people affected by the Taliban. Not to mention Afghanistan was invaded by 50 countries, including many Muslim ones, to rid it of the Taliban. Seriously man, all we have done for the past decade and a half is fight terrorists and now you're accusing us of not fighting enough terrorists.


Has Israel stopped using UN resolutions as toilet paper? Has Israel agreed to the perfectly reasonable demands of the Palestinians? Has Israel given the Palestinians their rights back? Has the US stopped pumping billions into Israel? The answer to my questions and your question is "NO". So, my logic is still correct.

I am sorry about the taliban-pakistan reference... it is a personal bias that comes up quite often w.r.t Mullah Omars Taliban and pakistan's role in it.

As far as israel is concerned, the problem is more complicated , but we will continue that discussion later.


As far solving problems of muslim world - my honest opinion is people like you can solve it...

 

[PeaceGen]

Hopefully, all religions will disappear and countries will be ruled by logic, science and evidence some day in the future.

Hopefully all religions will survive to see them embrace the principles of peace truly.

 

[TankMan]

I absolutely agree that muslim nations though having the capability did not carpet bomb either taliban, isis or any other operator, why didn't they....

The situation in Syria was very complicated at that time, Muslim nations trying to bomb ISIS before they moved into Iraq would've been a very, very bad move. Now that they have invaded Iraq, Muslim nations are bombing them.

Also, Pakistan is currently fighting the Taliban. They were reluctant because of a variety of reasons, such as displacing people and the fact that military operations end up creating more terrorists than they eliminate but this time it's going well, I'm happy about that at least.

Remember nations/societies who do not act become irrelevant.... why did the islamic empire in the past thrive, - Imo, because they were proactive, they protected their interests with decisive actions, they did not foster proxies.... Today there is a paradigm shift in the geo-political equations and the Islamic states are still asleep with what we Indians call as "chalta hai attitude"...

I agree, 100%. We Muslims (I'm a Muslim, so I prefer to use 'we') need to start taking some proper action to solve our internal problems. Not war or crackdowns but by working within the existing democratic and social system. Simple,proper discussions followed by improving infrastructure, providing education to improve mindset and educating people about their religion and societal issues would work very well, though some radical action will be required to eliminate things like corruption and misinformation (which is brainwash, essentially). Such things can definitely be done and the Muslim world can improve and become a driving force in global development. It will take time and effort but it is necessary.

Solving the problems faced and caused by Muslim countries should be a higher priority than having golden sports cars or the tallest buildings. Normal people like us can only discuss things, to implement them we need good leaders and support. That's what the OIC was supposed to be for, unfortunately its absolutely useless right now.

Then there are confusing identity, are there such things called as muslim nations? or are they syria, KSA, UAE, Egypt etc... Now if these nations are only interested in thier own interests, then forget the entire muslim identity and stop taking offense to muslim references... If it is otherwise, then protect Syria from Isis, protect Afghans from taliban, not by sending mujhhideens but by sending those shiny jets and million dollar tanks. Take responsibility of the muslim world, the muslim people and the muslim society....

They are Muslim majority nations, though I fully agree with what you're saying here. The divisions based on politics and greed are too great and too alarming, they're the main thing preventing the Muslim world from improving.

Elect strong leader who will kick these dirtbags to the curb...Kick out the royalty who endorse such manipulations, kick out military dictators and take control.... Now all this rhetoric sounds sanctimonious, but this radical approach is the only pill that will cure radicalism.

I agree that being a bit radical is required in some cases, however the problem is that the issue is very complex with multiple factors in play. We need to be careful where to be radical and where to be a bit 'moderate'. Total radicalism usually ends up making the situation worse, just look at what happened with Egypt's and Libya's revolutions, or even worse, Syria.

I'm writing all this with Pakistan in mind, since I know the situation there better than I know of any other Muslim country. To elect good leaders, we firstly need to find them. Then, we need to convince all the uneducated people to actually give the new leaders a chance instead of their feudal lords/local chaudhrys or mullahs or whatever. Then, we need electoral reforms to ensure proper and fair elections. Furthermore, we need to educating the people about democracy and about the value of their votes. All this takes time.

Here's where the problem comes in, the catch-22: To get good leaders, we need good democracy. For good democracy, we need a good leader to lay the foundation first. I hope that eventually we get one good leader who will set the foundation for a proper democratic system so that we can elect another good leader the next time, starting the cycle of development.

I believe the situation in most other Muslim countries is similar, the numbers may be different but the formula is the same.

I am sorry about the taliban-pakistan reference... it is a personal bias that comes up quite often w.r.t Mullah Omars Taliban and pakistan's role in it.

Yeah, its alright, I understand what you meant. I personally apologize on behalf of my country for all the mistakes we made, that will require a thread of its own if we are to discuss it in detail.

As far as israel is concerned, the problem is more complicated , but we will continue that discussion later.

Yes, it indeed is very complicated.

As far solving problems of muslim world - my honest opinion is people like you can solve it...

Well, that's very flattering
Personally it's my dream to contribute to improving the Muslim world, and the world in general, in one way or another. I'm still sticking to that dream, hoping that I get a chance to fulfil it in the near future.

Anyway, I'm glad we could have such a civilized and pleasant discussion on a topic as controversial as this one.

 

[Black Widow]

Maulana and Maulakom is Rasulo allah.
Evidence in science as a scientific proof , yes. before that it was philosophy, nothing more.
I have also said that Islam ideology goes back to Abraham...
Islam did not borrow , Muslims improved on every field of science and came up with many breakthroughs, never found before., they are too long to list here. You or anyone else can Google them anytime. Algebra, and algorithms will be a good start for your inquiries.

Maulana you are ill informed.

The knowledge was already there, The only problem was medium.. With industrialization papers were mass produced and knowledge was put onto paper. After fire, mass production of paper was one of most important invention.

You Muslim boast about Algebra, rt...
Read this Maulana, This was written before your Allah was introduced... Al-Gebra was known to Babilonian, Egyptians, Indians.. Arabs just propagated it to west and west using its printing press re-distributed it to world.... We are greatfull to gutenburg who gave us printing press, or else the knowledge would have been localized.

History of algebra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes Yes Islam ideology goes to Black-hole and Big-Bang as well... stupid Madarsa educated blind followers... never understand the truth....

 

[Black Widow]

When someone starts killing Muslims for their money, Oil , Gas and what have you. They fight back in the name of God, since he is the most just. First they are not the aggressors, second, they defend themselves against superior forces by counting on their abilities and their faith in GOD, since for the believers, he is the most capable, and this particular belief makes the strength of their opponent appear much lower than the latter wants it to be perceived as. The other thing that their belief in GOD gives them is the dissolution of the fear of death, a fact that marks their strength in the battle field, since they believe in justice, they fight for it in the name of GOD the most just with total confidence in him.

Yes yes they are defending by killing innocent in Iraq..

By making Yejidi/Shia/non-Muslim girl sex slave.

stop BS... It has become dangerous for humanity..
For humanity to survive all Humane forces unite and kill this devil --Narendra Modi during UN speech and Meeting with Prez Obama..

Not shooting but I already pointed out Islam is also diverse based on the culture of the person adhering to it...because majority prefer culture over religion....they just change the name of their religion but never drop their culture...it kinda speaks heaps and I never said lesser Muslim why are you jumping to conclusion?

And I highlighted the politician bit but of course that part you didnt see....

But Mullas said that there is only one Islam and no one start following local culture... -- Refer Zakir Naik..

The situation in Syria was very complicated at that time, Muslim nations trying to bomb ISIS before they moved into Iraq would've been a very, very bad move. Now that they have invaded Iraq, Muslim nations are bombing them.

Also, Pakistan is currently fighting the Taliban. They were reluctant because of a variety of reasons, such as displacing people and the fact that military operations end up creating more terrorists than they eliminate but this time it's going well, I'm happy about that at least.


I agree, 100%. We Muslims (I'm a Muslim, so I prefer to use 'we') need to start taking some proper action to solve our internal problems. Not war or crackdowns but by working within the existing democratic and social system. Simple,proper discussions followed by improving infrastructure, providing education to improve mindset and educating people about their religion and societal issues would work very well, though some radical action will be required to eliminate things like corruption and misinformation (which is brainwash, essentially). Such things can definitely be done and the Muslim world can improve and become a driving force in global development. It will take time and effort but it is necessary.

Solving the problems faced and caused by Muslim countries should be a higher priority than having golden sports cars or the tallest buildings. Normal people like us can only discuss things, to implement them we need good leaders and support. That's what the OIC was supposed to be for, unfortunately its absolutely useless right now.


They are Muslim majority nations, though I fully agree with what you're saying here. The divisions based on politics and greed are too great and too alarming, they're the main thing preventing the Muslim world from improving.



I agree that being a bit radical is required in some cases, however the problem is that the issue is very complex with multiple factors in play. We need to be careful where to be radical and where to be a bit 'moderate'. Total radicalism usually ends up making the situation worse, just look at what happened with Egypt's and Libya's revolutions, or even worse, Syria.

I'm writing all this with Pakistan in mind, since I know the situation there better than I know of any other Muslim country. To elect good leaders, we firstly need to find them. Then, we need to convince all the uneducated people to actually give the new leaders a chance instead of their feudal lords/local chaudhrys or mullahs or whatever. Then, we need electoral reforms to ensure proper and fair elections. Furthermore, we need to educating the people about democracy and about the value of their votes. All this takes time.

Here's where the problem comes in, the catch-22: To get good leaders, we need good democracy. For good democracy, we need a good leader to lay the foundation first. I hope that eventually we get one good leader who will set the foundation for a proper democratic system so that we can elect another good leader the next time, starting the cycle of development.

I believe the situation in most other Muslim countries is similar, the numbers may be different but the formula is the same.


Yeah, its alright, I understand what you meant. I personally apologize on behalf of my country for all the mistakes we made, that will require a thread of its own if we are to discuss it in detail.


Yes, it indeed is very complicated.


Well, that's very flattering
Personally it's my dream to contribute to improving the Muslim world, and the world in general, in one way or another. I'm still sticking to that dream, hoping that I get a chance to fulfil it in the near future.

Anyway, I'm glad we could have such a civilized and pleasant discussion on a topic as controversial as this one.

your posts are logical and progressive.. I wish ppl like you exist in larger number. and ppl like you should be vocal .

 

[DingDong]

Those who say that it is "Politics" not Islam are bluffing. Islam and "Political Islam" are not separate, never were.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

When someone starts killing Muslims for their money, Oil , Gas and what have you. They fight back in the name of God, since he is the most just. First they are not the aggressors, second, they defend themselves against superior forces by counting on their abilities and their faith in GOD, since for the believers, he is the most capable, and this particular belief makes the strength of their opponent appear much lower than the latter wants it to be perceived as. The other thing that their belief in GOD gives them is the dissolution of the fear of death, a fact that marks their strength in the battle field, since they believe in justice, they fight for it in the name of GOD the most just with total confidence in him.

Precisely what makes the Islamic Armies so fanatical, ruthless and last but not the least - successful. I mean ISIS for example. They may be brutes but they don't fear death one bit.

Also, destroying ISIS will only give a breathing space of, say 5 years. After that another org will come up and start doing what they had been doing. There will be enough disgruntled followers as always.

 

[The SC]

Maulana you are ill informed.

The knowledge was already there, The only problem was medium.. With industrialization papers were mass produced and knowledge was put onto paper. After fire, mass production of paper was one of most important invention.

You Muslim boast about Algebra, rt...
Read this Maulana, This was written before your Allah was introduced... Al-Gebra was known to Babilonian, Egyptians, Indians.. Arabs just propagated it to west and west using its printing press re-distributed it to world.... We are greatfull to gutenburg who gave us printing press, or else the knowledge would have been localized.

History of algebra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes Yes Islam ideology goes to Black-hole and Big-Bang as well... stupid Madarsa educated blind followers... never understand the truth....

And where the Arabs were living?
You seem mad anyways, and I do not know the reasons. It is up to you to believe whatever you want .

 

[Jaanbaz]

What does this mean?

You don't understand English. Where did I say Islam? I just asked is this the same clown who was taking pot shots at Pakistan.

 

[The SC]

Yes yes they are defending by killing innocent in Iraq..

By making Yejidi/Shia/non-Muslim girl sex slave.

stop BS... It has become dangerous for humanity..
For humanity to survive all Humane forces unite and kill this devil --Narendra Modi during UN speech and Meeting with Prez Obama.

What about those bombings in Baghdad that have killed thousands, and The American invasion wich left a million dead Iraqis and at least another million injured. Anyhow this ISIS thing is an American proxy known as such or depicted as such by most media on earth., So whatever they do is most probably planned thousands of miles away... with an agenda to it.
I am not defending ISIS, if you read my posts, I was talking about the middle east as a whole. And yes war is waged on the Muslim middle east because of its natural resources, So Muslims in general will fight for them as I described it before.

 

[500]

Again SC and his h"knowledge"

It is nothing new. If one thinks in a historical perspective, one can see that there were 12 crusades against Islam, The whole of Europe Christianity gathered to kill it in its infancy...

The first Crusade was in 1096, thats some 466 years after conquest of Mecca. Nice 466 year old infant, which conquered half of the world. USA today is only 237 years old by the way.

Neither Crusades could threaten Islam existence in any way but merely reconquering a tiny portion of former Christian lands.

They gathered again against the ottoman Empire with the help of Russia, and couldn't succeed either but to stop the turks from taking Vienna on the demand of a Christian king.

Who was attacking who here? And what Russia had to do with the siege of Vienna?

Maybe u mean Russian-Turk wars which happened much later? But then Europeans actually sided the Ottomans.

So better go back to school and learn some basic history.

 

[The SC]

Precisely what makes the Islamic Armies so fanatical, ruthless and last but not the least - successful. I mean ISIS for example. They may be brutes but they don't fear death one bit.

Also, destroying ISIS will only give a breathing space of, say 5 years. After that another org will come up and start doing what they had been doing. There will be enough disgruntled followers as always.

That is true, and the experience of Afghanistan mostly but Iraq too somehow has pushed the West to rethink its war policy and doctrine when it comes to fighting Muslims; Now they try to use that Muslim strength in unconventional warfare to their advantage, So, on one hand they support these entities and on the other hand they try to use them to suite their own agendas...without any boots on the ground, since that proved to be too dangerous, and too heavy a price for furthering the Western policies of divide and conquer, and plundering Muslim riches.
Personally I do not think that this Western policy will work in the long term, Muslims as astute as they always have been (at least a bunch of them) will take advantage of these new attempts, and will get the most benefits from them in the long term.
There is what is known as the Islamic Awakening going on in the whole Muslim world, and it coincides with all these dynamics going on right now in the middle east, It is also a long term endeavor and not only a dream, we have witnessed its momentum, and now it is following its course.

 

[Black Widow]

What about those bombings in Baghdad that have killed thousands, and The American invasion wich left a million dead Iraqis and at least another million injured. Anyhow this ISIS thing is an American proxy known as such or depicted as such by most media on earth., So whatever they do is most probably planned thousands of miles away... with an agenda to it.
I am not defending ISIS, if you read my posts, I was talking about the middle east as a whole. And yes war is waged on the Muslim middle east because of its natural resources, So Muslims in general will fight for them as I described it before.

How about those? Since USA killed Bagdad ppl, you will also kill Bagdadi ppl?? You will make yajidi and Shia sex slave??

Now ISIS is USA proxy.. Thats why they are beheading American and brits jounralist.. Thats why Muslim from 50 countries are fighting with ISIS...

Those Brit Muslim who joined ISIS are also CIA/MI6 spies..

Where you guys learn lie, denial and BS?? Which book or teacher taught you guys these things???

 

[The SC]

Again SC and his h"knowledge"


The first Crusade was in 1096, thats some 466 years after conquest of Mecca. Nice 466 year old infant, which conquered half of the world. USA today is only 237 years old by the way.

Neither Crusades could threaten Islam existence in any way but merely reconquering a tiny portion of former Christian lands.


Who was attacking who here? And what Russia had to do with the siege of Vienna?

Maybe u mean Russian-Turk wars which happened much later? But then Europeans actually sided the Ottomans.

So better go back to school and learn some basic history.

Your level of understanding is really mediocre. You can not make the link between the old crusades and the new ones, that is because you are blinded by your lies, and you feel you have to do it on purpose. I can read your mind like you have never imagined it .
Is it not the Austrian king that had asked the Turks to take Vienna?
I have asked you to tell us about your achievements in life and you have never answered, eventhough I have answered your request.
So, what knowledge are you talking about ...A part from trolling?

How about those? Since USA killed Bagdad ppl, you will also kill Bagdadi ppl?? You will make yajidi and Shia sex slave??

Now ISIS is USA proxy.. Thats why they are beheading American and brits jounralist.. Thats why Muslim from 50 countries are fighting with ISIS...

Those Brit Muslim who joined ISIS are also CIA/MI6 spies..

Where you guys learn lie, denial and BS?? Which book or teacher taught you guys these things???

You are too blinded by your bias against Muslims to understand what is going on.
The beheading was the sole reason for the US to ask for a coalition again and to send its air-force , now the Navy has joined in!
Without that (an attack on American citizens, read the beheading of 2 or 3 Americans), no one was willing to help them against Syria and ISIL, or against ISIS in Iraq.
By the way, about the bombs in Baghdad , do you know that the biggest American embassy in the world is ...in Baghdad. With a contingency of almost a division of marines, CIA, NSA and all Spy orgs of the US, plus now it has its own Iraqi proxies.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

The beheading was the sole reason for the US to ask for a coalition again and to send its air-force , now the Navy has joined in!
Without that (an attack on American citizens, read the beheading of 2 or 3 Americans), no one was willing to help them against Syria and ISIL, or against ISIS in Iraq.

It is a Zionist Western attempt to portray ISIS in bad light, isn't it?

Is it not the Austrian king that had asked the Turks to take Vienna?

Yes, he wanted to see the light as a Ottoman vassal. Wonder why Austria resisted the Ottomans then.

It is also a long term endeavor and not only a dream, we have witnessed its momentum, and now it is following its course.

Yes, finally there is a possibility, however remote of fulfilling the prophecy of a worldwide khilafat with absolute power in the hands of Muslims alone.

[Sarcasm intended]

You will make yajidi and Shia sex slave??

Given a chance, they will make Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists etc too. AGAIN. Just give them some time.