Fakhri Pasha "The Defender of Madina"

[-SINAN-]

Yet the industrial revolution has nothing to do with Turkey. That was Western Europe. You can't take their achievements as your own. Where would Turkey be without Western help?

Hoh ho.... western help

We don't claim to be a semi-democracy like Turkey

Surely you know nothing about democracy, no wander in that.

 

[al-Hasani]

Hoh ho.... western help

The Ottomans already used German engineering. We are not going to kid ourselves. All Muslim countries have depended on Western help and technology and those who have become more self-sufficient after decades of struggling, like Turkey, all base that on Western technology. It thanks to that. Without them no indigenous products would be made by any Muslim country or non-Western country.

With fully (100%) indigenous military products have Turkey ever created without using Western technology? There is none.

That's a fact. Read about how Pakistan for instance got the atomic bomb.

 

[-SINAN-]

What you consider as freedom etc. has no importance.

For you maybe, for us everything.

 

[xenon54 out]

@xenon54

Yet the industrial revolution has nothing to do with Turkey. That was Western Europe. You can't take their achievements as your own. Where would Turkey be without Western help? Same situation. Actually worse since you don't have all the resources we have. Not our problem that you don't have them.

Where did i meantioned Turkey?

Every civilization and empire became rich either through native resources or by conquering them.

Europeans became rich throught sience and education not the same case like KSA where westerners built your Rafinerys so can sell them your oil.

The Arab world has had the oldest and among the most influential civilizations way before anybody had heard about the word Turk and where Turkey was still Greek, Armenian and Kurdish.
Let alone the Arab Islamic empires and their countless of contributions.

Your repeating yourself its getting boring, ME has the oldest civilisation, the credit goes to ME civilisations who dont have much to do with todays Arabs

HDI index have clearly spoken. They don't only deal with economy.

HDI has much to do with economy such as healthcare for exsample.

What you consider as freedom etc. has no importance. The importance is that people of the GCC live in the richest, most stable, prosperous, happy and safe region of the Muslim world.

What do i consider as Freedom?

We don't claim to be a semi-democracy like Turkey which never will be part of the EU or accepted as a full democracy. We have our own system that most people are perfectly comfortable with.

We dont claim anything, we are democratic, we have now our problems with islamist/Arab ideologyst people but they will go one day. I know Arab ideology and Democracy doesnt fit eachother.

And EU is not the subject of the discussion.

Yet, the GDP of Arab countries with no oil is even today still higher than that of Turkey. For instance Lebanon.

You are wrong again

Turkey:

GDP per Capita (PPP) $18,348
GDP per Capita (Nominal) $10,666

Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Lebanon:

GDP per Capita (PPP) $15,522
GDP per Capita (Nominal) $9,862

Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkey first become a model country in any way in the last 10 years thanks to the economic boom. Nothing else. Before you had millions of Turks escaping to the West for a better life.

Yes economic boom due to hard working people, not free money from the ground.

Oh, is Turkey not the country that has jailed the most journalists in the world?

Like i said, thanks to Arab ideologist people.

 

[-SINAN-]

The Ottomans already used German engineering. We are not going to kid ourselves. All Muslim countries have depended on Western help and technology and those who have become more self-sufficient after decades of struggling, like Turkey, all base that on Western technology. It thanks to that. Without them no indigenous products would be made by any Muslim country or non-Western country.

With fully (100%) indigenous military products have Turkey ever created? There is none.

That's a fact. Read about how Pakistan for instance got the atomic bomb.

This argument is not valid.

By your logic US used German technolgy. Chinese used Russian technology.

We have our own industry, designed and built in Turkey that's it and that is nothing to do with Western help.

Infact there is no Western help.

T

With fully (100%) indigenous military products have Turkey ever created without using Western technology? There is none.

Even Boeing uses foreign parts on their planes.... what is your point.

 

[al-Hasani]

Where did i meantioned Turkey?


Europeans became rich throught since and education not the same case like KSA where westerners built you Rafinerys so can sell them your oil.



Your repeating yourself its getting boring, ME has the oldest civilisation, the credit goes to ME civilisations who dont have much to do with todays Arabs



HDI mas much to do with economy such as healthcare for exsample.


What do i consider as Freedom?



We dont claim anything, we are democratic, we have now our problems with islamist/Arab ideologyst people but they will go one day. I know Arab ideology and Democracy doesnt fit eachother.

And EU is not the subject of the discussion.



You are wrong again

Turkey:

GDP per Capita (PPP) $18,348
GDP per Capita (Nominal) $10,666

Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Lebanon:

GDP per Capita (PPP) $15,522
GDP per Capita (Nominal) $9,862

Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Yes economic boon due to hard working people, not free money from the ground.


Like i said, thanks to Arab ideologist people.

No, they became rich due to previous empires otherwise they would be irrelevant. Thanks to looting South America, ME, Africa etc. and other regions of resources.

The industrial boom in the US was thanks to the gold and oil discoveries. Since they got those resources at time where the Muslim world created nothing of worth (from 1500's and onward) it gave them plenty of opportunity to grow and take the leading position. Which they did.

No, but those were ancient Semitic civilizations that predated the Arabs and most other ethnic groups of today. Arabs are a Semitic people and in fact the most numerous Semitic people. If your compatriots can go and claim some Turkic empires in this discussion I can claim Semitic ones. What is the difference? There is none.

So it's not only about being rich in resources is it?

Keep thinking that you are a real democracy. Or a model democracy. Nor is democracy even your invention.

Also there are plenty of democratic Arab countries. At least as democratic as Turkey. Although the real democratic counties in the West don't recognize them as such completely.

That's not what this link shows which I use:

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, when you don't have many resources you have to look for other means. But if you had a lower population that would be impossible. So it works both ways.

What is "Arab ideologist people"? You talking about Islam? What has Islam to do with your country jailing more journalists than anybody else in the world? Yet you are claiming to be a democratic state.

You see KSA never claimed to be a democracy because it is not and most are fine with this. We have our own system and most people are comfortable with that system although it is not perfect but no system is that.

This argument is not valid.

By your logic US used German technolgy. Chinese used Russian technology.

We have our own industry, designed and built in Turkey that's it and that is nothing to do with Western help.

Infact there is no Western help.



Even Boeing uses foreign parts on their planes.... what is your point.

This means that your compatriot is in no position to claim that region x or y outside of the Western world would be better had none of those non-Western regions been exposed to Western technology. There is no pretext for this. In fact the Arab Islamic Caliphates and Al-Andalus gave much more to the world than the Ottomans which did very little in terms of poetry, science etc.

Hence why the Islamic Golden Age took place during the previous Caliphates. It was the zenith of Muslim rule culturally, economically, militarily etc. We did not need Turks for this. All this happened under Arab rule.

Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So he should avoid making such false comments.

 

[good_boy]

^^^
@al-Hasani
Industrial revolution is the reason for west domination not gold and oil discoveries which were there for millions of years. And Gulf countries should be given a lot of credit to how they advanced and provided very good life style for their citizens, with help of oil money and west technology. They are not the only countries with oil & gas. Look at Iran and Iraq for exemple and compare them with gulf countries.

 

[xenon54 out]

No, they became rich due to previous empires otherwise they would be irrelevant. Thanks to looting South America, ME, Africa etc. and other regions of resources.

Yeah but they made the industrial revolution possible due to their own education and sience while GCC is still dependent on western Education, Engineers, Machines.

Keep thinking that you are a real democracy. Or a model democracy. Nor is democracy even your invention.

I didnt claim anything of those, we have our problems but Turkey is still the only democratic muslim country in ME (probably Lebanon too)

Also there are plenty of democratic Arab countries. At least as democratic as Turkey. Although the real democratic counties in the West don't recognize them as such completely.

Yeah they only recognize Turkey as democratic, ironic isnt it?

That's not what this link shows which I use:

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the World bank list on your source says Turkey has higher GDP per Capita, in the end most sources show that Turkey has higher GDP per Capita than Lebanon.

What is "Arab ideologist people"? You talking about Islam? What has Islam to do with your country jailing more journalists than anybody else in the world? Yet you are claiming to be a democratic state.

People with Arab ideolgy who dont accept any other ideology than theirs.

You see KSA never claimed to be a democracy because it is not and most are fine with this. We have our own system and most people are comfortable with that system although it is not perfect but no system is that.

Thats why i said you lack of everything else than money because your govermental system is still medival.

 

[al-Hasani]

Yeah but they made the industrial revolution possible due to their own education and sience while GCC is still dependent on western Education, Engineers, Machines.


I didnt claim anything of those, we have our problems but Turkey is still the only democratic muslim country in ME (probably Lebanon too)


Yeah they only recognize Turkey as democratic, ironic isnt it?



Even the World bank list on your source says Turkey has higher GDP per Capita, in the end most sources show that Turkey has higher GDP per Capita than Lebanon.


People with Arab ideolgy who dont accept any other ideology than theirs.


Thats why i said you lack of everything else than money because your govermental system is medival.

We are not more dependent than you are. Anyway the industrial revolution is not your work and you depended and still depend on Western technology as well and all you call indigenous is in reality Western technology. So you are in no position.

"Democratic". Then why do they not permit you to enter EU which you have begged for? Apparently not democratic enough it seems.

Anyway the differences are very small.

Do Turkish nationalists like you count in that group then?

At least we are not copying something that is not our own and claim it as our own. But that is nothing new.

 

[xenon54 out]

We are not more dependent than you are. Anyway the industrial revolution is not your work and you depended and still depend on Western technology as well and all you call indigenous is in reality Western technology. So you are in no position.

Well, we dont claim to be rich because of our own work in contrary to you.

But still we gained some success with our own hard work without free money.

Turkey

KSA

"Democratic". Then why do they not permit you to enter EU which you have begged for? Apparently not democratic enough it seems.

They wouldnt accept Turkey even if it was the most democratic country in the world, this doesnt proof anything.

Anyway the differences are very small.

Do Turkish nationalists like you count in that group then?

At least we are not copying something that is not our own and claim it as our own. But that is nothing new.

???????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Hakan]

We are not more dependent than you are. Anyway the industrial revolution is not your work and you depended and still depend on Western technology as well and all you call indigenous is in reality Western technology. So you are in no position.

"Democratic". Then why do they not permit you to enter EU which you have begged for? Apparently not democratic enough it seems.

Anyway the differences are very small.

Do Turkish nationalists like you count in that group then?

At least we are not copying something that is not our own and claim it as our own. But that is nothing new.

Yo also depend on western technology and will continue to in the short and longterm.

You guys don't even have the capability to copy let alone build anything your selves even though you have unlimited amounts of cash we are actually trying to learn how to build things our selves. We are doing what the arabs did in the past which was collect knowledge from across the world and then come up with your own stuff. We are at the stage of collecting knowledge. In the future we will actually be a fully independent country if everything goes as planned. our people are hard workers and intelligent so I dont expect much less.

 

[al-Hasani]

^^^
@al-Hasani
Industrial revolution is the reason for west domination not gold and oil discoveries which were there for millions of years. And Gulf countries should be given a lot of credit to how they advanced and provided very good life style for their citizens, with help of oil money and west technology. They are not the only countries with oil & gas. Look at Iran and Iraq for exemple and compare them with gulf countries.

I have no problem with admitting that the modern world as we know it is the creation of the Western world. I am talking about from 1500's and onwards. For thousands of years before that the ME region was the leading force in that department. If you read my post number 137 I have no problem admitting that but it seems that our Turkish friends are desperate to claim/use creations that are not their own and make untrue hypothesis when they would be in no better position at all.
In fact history shows that it was the opposite way around.

This means that your compatriot is in no position to claim that region x or y outside of the Western world would be better had none of those non-Western regions been exposed to Western technology. There is no pretext for this. In fact the Arab Islamic Caliphates and Al-Andalus gave much more to the world than the Ottomans which did very little in terms of poetry, science etc.

Hence why the Islamic Golden Age took place during the previous Caliphates. It was the zenith of Muslim rule culturally, economically, militarily etc. We did not need Turks for this. All this happened under Arab rule.

Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So he should avoid making such false comments.

As I said not my problem that you have few resources. If you have fewer resources you need to work harder. Nothing new.

Anyway all those graphs are incorrect. 52% of all exports of KSA is not dealing with oil and gas. They are outdated.

It takes time to create a knowledge based society. Especially when you are not forced to as of now.

 

[xenon54 out]

Anyway all those graphs are incorrect. 52% of all exports of KSA is not dealing with oil and gas.

Yeah ofcourse everything is incorrect for you if it doesnt fit your view, you gave us many exsamples.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

The Ottomans already used German engineering. We are not going to kid ourselves. All Muslim countries have depended on Western help and technology and those who have become more self-sufficient after decades of struggling, like Turkey, all base that on Western technology. It thanks to that. Without them no indigenous products would be made by any Muslim country or non-Western country.

With fully (100%) indigenous military products have Turkey ever created without using Western technology? There is none.

That's a fact. Read about how Pakistan for instance got the atomic bomb.

Design of centrifuges?

 

[al-Hasani]

Yeah ofcourse everything is incorrect for you if it doesnt fit your view, you gave us many exsamples.

It is.

KSA Economy News & Discussions

Just because you started your industrialization 1 decade earlier does not change anything in the wider picture. You also have much more favorable rules for foreign investment etc.

If KSA was not blessed with natural resources they would have taken the exact same roue as you.