Failure of Pakistani Government; it’s the time for Army to hold Pakistan?

[vkurian]

Your options are limited...

You have to trust the present leaders as the world is negotiating with them. Financially you are in dire straits so any thought of army moving in will stop all the loans in the pipelines which is the last thing you want in the present circumstances.

Drone attacks have to stop...no two ways about it so also the Pakistan army and air force heavy fire. Special Forces and strong police force is the way forward. This steps will have to be backed by a strong dose of liberal Islam as a response to the mullah and jihad culture on top of all this you have to bring a strong economic package for the affected areas.

Above all think beyond India for all your problems then you will be able to identify the current causes. It is the wrong policies of the army over the years have brought you where you are. Instead of blaming the actual organization you just name Zia or Musharaf and try to shield the army. Understand it is the army of Pakistan and not army's Pakistan.

This culture of blaming India was started and is continued by the army for its own existence and well being. As any individual can understand if India and Pakistan were to coexist peace fully will the army guys have such a big say in everything. Waziristan didn't come into existence today it was carefully brought up as a sanctuary of wild animals over the period of time as a second line of defense. So what you are cribbing about if this animals are biting back......cage them or kill them.

Hafeez Sayed is a archangel as per your courts wait till he becomes a spoilt child. Will Kashmiri’s like to join Pakistan of today...think twice? If religion was a cause for unification then there would not have been any boundaries between Muslim nations. None of this will convince you coz over the years of anti India indoctrination will not let you think normally .The worst case scenario is when the head of a state has to hide behind the excuse of non state actors. Accepting that the writ of the state does not work within the boundaries of Pakistan. You need more than a flag, currency and map to be a country.

THE CONDITIONS OF PAKISTAN TODAY SHOULD BE A LESSON FOR INDIA AND INDIANS NOT TO LIVE IN A HATE ONLY WORLD AND NOT TO INTERFEAR IN THE BUSINESS OF ANY NATION. WE HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS OF OUR OWN LETS CONCENTRTE ON IT BEFORE SOME ONE DECIDES TO EXPLOIT IT.A UNSTABLE PAKISTAN IS NOT WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE BUT LETS WISH THEM THE BEST. I THINK IT WOULD BE BEST TO ADDRESS ALL THEIR CONCERNS FROM OUR SIDE REGARDING ANY PROOF THEY BRING UP.WHY FEAR WHEN WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE.

HOW PAKISTAN OF FUTURE WILL LOOK LET US LIVE IT TO THEM AND CONCENTRATE HOW INDIA SHOULD LOOK IN FUTRE.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Going by the title and the first page of this thread, seems like the posters are not pointing the finger at the right direction.

I am not a fan of the PPP----but the problem over here is pak army----that is where the problem lies---they are not doing their job properly---it is due to their incopetence that they got struck and officers got taken as hostages.

It is not the govt's job to provide security----it is the army's job to do that and they have failed miserably to protect their very own headquarter.

It looks very bad on Mr Gen Kiyani---I believe that it is time that he needs to be fired---it doesn't look like the the guy is not competent to lead the army at this stage. He has failed to provide leadership qualities amongst his men, where they are needed the most.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Hi,

Going by the title and the first page of this thread, seems like the posters are not pointing the finger at the right direction.

I am not a fan of the PPP----but the problem over here is pak army----that is where the problem lies---they are not doing their job properly---it is due to their incopetence that they got struck and officers got taken as hostages.

It is not the govt's job to provide security----it is the army's job to do that and they have failed miserably to protect their very own headquarter.

It looks very bad on Mr Gen Kiyani---I believe that it is time that he needs to be fired---it doesn't look like the the guy is not competent to lead the army at this stage. He has failed to provide leadership qualities amongst his men, where they are needed the most.

No Khan Sab, No Army could have protected their GQH better then Pakistani Army they stopped and killed all in 12hours because of best SSGs in the world. They didn't get time to put their demands and blackmail Army through media.
Gen Kiyani brought Army back to barracks and will keep them there and when he became chief army has 30% support among civilians now around 90%.
He did a successful operation in Swat.

 

[MastanKhan]

No Khan Sab, No Army could have protected their GQH better then Pakistani Army they stopped and killed all in 12hours because of best SSGs in the world. They didn't get time to put their demands and blackmail Army through media.
Gen Kiyani brought Army back to barracks and will keep them there and when he became chief army has 30% support among civilians now around 90%.
He did a successful operation in Swat.

Hi,

If this is the standard---then there is no need to brag about it---this subject is not emotional---give reason and state your strategy and gamesmanship why you say what you state.

Right now---pak army has deep stains on their uniform---they got serious issues---and those are a lack of leadership.

Big deal swat---it should never have occured in the first place.

 

[PAFAce]

No Khan Sab, No Army could have protected their GQH better then Pakistani Army they stopped and killed all in 12hours because of best SSGs in the world. They didn't get time to put their demands and blackmail Army through media.
Gen Kiyani brought Army back to barracks and will keep them there and when he became chief army has 30% support among civilians now around 90%.
He did a successful operation in Swat.

Attack on the General Head Quarters should have never taken place in the first place. If it did, then the terrorists should not have been able to take 42 hostages. That is MastanKhan's point, and I agree 100% with it. In my only post on the main GHQ attack forum, I highlighted very clearly that I do not feel this was a "complete success" as some were trying to turn it into.

Now, there is little doubt that the SSG did a tremendous job by rescuing 39 hostages, in an op that lasted only 20 minutes. Like I've said, any Anti-Terrorist Squad would be proud of this success. But, that should not deter us from the facts, which are that 20 people needlessly lost their lives, at the hands of 6 men or less, and the reputation of our Army, the pillar on which this country is standing, was severely tarnished both at home and abroad. There is no shame in admitting this, in fact, it is our right and responsibility as citizens of this land to demand justification for this type of failure in the security of such a monument. Especially after Manawan Training Center, this was inexcusable.

If you believe the objective of the terrorists was to take hostages and make demands, then you seriously underestimate your enemy. They accomplished their primary task of successfully attacking, holding and killing military personnel right in the heartland of the Army's stronghold. MastanKhan has termed it "putting the dagger into the heart of the military". I think that's very harsh, they only got to the outskirts of the "heart", and only temporarily, but the failure remains. Any demands by the terrorists would have been a secondary objective, if at all, as they probably planned this as a suicide mission.

All in all, coming back to the topic of the thread, the blame for attacks on security strongholds such as Manawan TC, GHQ etc. should be placed primarily on the military and other security forces. The government cannot dictate how the military should protect the GHQ, so we can't blame them for something they have no control over. The government should be blamed for playing games with the people and the military, for not doing its job properly. But its job is not the protection of the Army or the police, its job is just to make the resources available for them to do their jobs fittingly.

So no, it is not time for the Army to take control, yet. The matter is still in the people's hands. If we allow a man with less than 20% approval ratings to continue leading the nation, then we have no one to blame for our failures but ourselves.

 

[Developereo]

It is not the govt's job to provide security----it is the army's job to do that

The army's job is to guard the borders and repel external threats. The army should never have to invade its own cities.

Domestic security is 100% the job of the government. The domestic terrorism in Pakistan is a result of three specifc failures of the government:
- utter and complete failure of law enforcement
- education system hijacked by religious extremist agenda
- broken economy provides easy recruits for extremists

Regarding the merits of democracy, Pakistan has never had a true democracy. Like most thid world countries, we have been alternating between military dictatorship and a (feudal) plutocracy.

A true democracy is impossible without a sizeable middle class.

High earning middle class only 2.5pc of population in Pakistan
By Mansoor Ahmad

LAHORE: Income disparities in India are more pronounced than Pakistan but it has developed a consumer base of 130 million strong upper middle class earners between $10,000 to $50,000 a year that Pakistan lacks proportionate to its population.

Economic experts point out that the presence of such a strong upper middle class comprising around 11 per cent of its population is the main reason for its robust economy. They pointed out that in contrast such high earning middle class is limited to hardly two million in Pakistan, which accounts for less than 2.5 per cent of its population.

They said that effective middle class comprising industry professionals, scientists, doctors, engineers play a pivotal role in the growth of a country. They said those earning over $10,000 a year in developing nations enjoy the same living standards as enjoyed by a person earning $25,000 in developed country. They said the notion that those living above poverty level are the real middle class is not true because they have no voice in the developing societies.

Senior economist Naveed Anwar Khan said that the number of people earning above $10,000 a year has grown in Pakistan but the two million workforce employed by the India IT industry alone earn more than this amount. He said the resource distribution in recent years have been fairer in India for the skilled and professional workers. It would have been in Pakistan had we prepared the skilled human resource, he added.

He said a middle class in relative terms can be defined, as the middle income range of each country; The problem with this approach, he added is that each country has a different median income, so the definition of what is middle class shifts from place to place. A more prudent method he added is to use a fixed income band for all countries. He said this is more representative method because this constitutes empowered segment of society in every country.

Market analyst Yunus Kamran FCA said in India the local and international banks are making consumer credit increasingly available to middle-class borrowers. This is spurring a new wave of consumer spending unprecedented in India’s history. Whereas in Pakistan the commercial banks are pulling out of consumer finance as it carries high risk due to limited incomes of the middle class.

He said Indians are optimistic that their upper middle class would expand to 39 million by 2012. He said they have reason for the optimist. In 1995 he added those earning $10,000 to $50,000 in India accounted for only 2 per cent of its population that increased to 5 per cent in 2005 and 11 per cent in 2009.

The momentum has been set and India would now grow on its middle class for years to come, he added. A new wave of consumer spending unprecedented in India’s history has sprung he added. He said Pakistan need to increase its effective middle class by increasing its spending on education and skill training. Only after that we could dream of sustained growth on local consumption, he said.

Asif Ali Shahid CPA said that it is the middle class are intellectuals, engineers, doctors, scientists, and industry professionals. They are the backbone of civil society. They influence policies. They fight corruption, bad governance and incompetence. They spur growth; they are consumers of goods and services.

The middle class is also different when it comes to the role of freedom in their lives. They support struggle for freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from hunger and poverty, or freedom from crime and violence. He said the middle class is more inclined than the less wealthy to consider equal judicial treatment very important.

When confronted with a choice between a good democracy and a strong economy, members of the middle classes in many developing countries prefer good democracy over affluence, he said.

 

[Wingman]

Within 20 days 8 major incidences in Peshawar, Islamabad, Kohat and Lahore. It’s a big failure of the Government. Inflation is at its peak. No one is secure.

1. Time to resign Zardari, Gillani, Shah Mahmood Qureshi, Rehman Malik, Kaira, Raja Perveez Ashraf etc etc?

2.Time for Army to hold Pakistan?

3.Time for new Elections?

What's your openion and suggestions?

Just one sentence " Be sincere to Pakistan" They are not serious they cannot handle the situation, because they are not sincere in their doings..

 

[HAIDER]

Let this govt complete 5 years, more it stay more people learn what their vote brought in public office. Let nation suffer under feudal regime. Next election they will act little wise. And next election contestant would know how he would act to re elect in next election. Army should play silent partner. Keep grip but don't come front. If army takes over that would make PPP hero again and all recent corruption cases will again dissolve in the air.

 

[PakSher]

Mid-term elections do happen in Europe and Asia, so it would not be the end of the world if we have another mid-term election. The current government is not performing and people cannot wait another 3.5 years for this circus to continue. Let the politicians suffer instead of the common man.

 

[jupiter2007]

Are you drunk? Nawaz is the worst choice at of all the corrupted politician in Pakistan.
Imran Khan would be good but we need to bring Musharraf come back as political adviser and Mustafa Kamal as Interior Minister of Pakistan

I am waiting for Mufti to issue fatwa "Wajay-bul-Qatal" against corrupted politicians in Pakisan

Well i dont Fully agree with you.. Even the army is corrupt. We need someone like Imran Khan or Nawaz Sharif to run the country. Army people are like dictators, PPl like zardari Beg for aid from US and other European Countries?. People like musharaf should be handged and Zardari should be shot infront of public. Thats the truth about them. Im sick and tired of these Idiots running our country.

Let me give you the scenerio. Do you really think taliban exist? if they do why dont they terrorize other countires other than US or Pakistan. This is all made up by US and funded by US. For a second even if you think talibaan is there then you can see if you kill 10 ppl from a family and 1 gets unharmed. Now that unharmed person dont have a reason to live. so he becomes a sucide bomber and dides. and here US and Pakistan Called These Kinda PPl " Tabliban". This is not our war. And the talibaan dont exist. End of the story.

There is a very famous saying as well: Jis Tarah Kay Log Houn Gay, Usi tarah Kay Leader Aaien gay.

There are mistakes in people of pakistan as well. So noone is right. For destablizing pakistan Everyone is equally involved People+ Politions + Army.

Try going to the towns which are getting bombed evenery day by PAF and US and If you think about my point you will see what im getting at.

Regards,
Bilal

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Hi,

If this is the standard---then there is no need to brag about it---this subject is not emotional---give reason and state your strategy and gamesmanship why you say what you state.

Right now---pak army has deep stains on their uniform---they got serious issues---and those are a lack of leadership.

Big deal swat---it should never have occured in the first place.

Can you give an example of lack of leadership in ARMY and how easy it is for you to say " big deal" about swat were Army has given its blood to protect Pakistan, plz show some emotions for it.

Wow you got thanks from S-2, you see how west likes when some Pa_i talks against Pak Army

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

First of all, there is no such thing as true democracy---democarcy is earned not lent.

Secondly---even though S 2 and I---as we look through the prism---we see a different picture---but sometimes when there is a convergence of light at one point---then we are not too far apart on how it should be handled.

This is my e-mail to ISPR through their web-site---


Dear general,

These terrorists have come and stuck a dagger in your heart, right in the middle of your house---and you the leader of my army,have been caught sleeping at the job, unprepared and ill-equipped to handle 10 terrorists.

Isn't that a shame and a disgrace for you---after all this talk of how great the pak army is and how prepared we are to face the enemy---you kow towed to 10 terrorists---who broke through your frontline barriers with a minimal of effort---.

Even though you killed them, that doesnot take the shame of loss from your uniform. Truthfully, you people are absolutely not mentally prepared to fight the TTP. Seems like you are really clueless to what you want to do.

Maybe you need to learn a lesson from your enemy---see how dedicated they are to their jobs---if you are half as dedicated and committed to yours as they are to theirs, you would not have been found lying on your knees with the gun of the enemy pointed at your head. MK . END

The problem with pak millitary is that it is not following its very own procedures---that of basics and fundamentals of security 101. The stance and the posture of pak millitary is extremely casual and callous.


Historically, pak millitary has taken all previous conflicts very casually and in a non-chalant manner. Like the 65 and 71 war---they have traditionally missed all the oppurtunities to take take down the enemy in the shortest possible time span---.

Examples are 62 india china war---pak didnot go for kashmir---71 war---pak generals chickened out on the western front---.

A simple analysis may show that the right officers are not being promoted---it may just be an inherent fault in the selection system---through no fault of there own---more procastinators / thinkers are being elected to a job that should have gone to doers---men of action---.

The analytical wing of the pak millitary may be way behind the eight ball---historical prcedence exists---.


Young pakistanis have no clue and understanding to what happened at the GHQ when the birgadier asked the gunmen--'what is happening' and got shot in result.

This incidence in itself show the callous and casual attitude of the brig in question---when no armed soldier was allowed in the GHQ then the brig should have asked the question to himself---what is this soldier doing over here---there is a gun figfht going outside and this soldier is here by himself---.

I mean to say---an attack outside and the insurgents getting in, inside that building would have been instantaneous--- otherwise the brig. would have had the time to peek outside or call someone to find out what was happening---.

Any standard operating procedure for security would have been---once you heard gunfire---every office should have been locked down from inside and not opened unless proper security clearance was given. Any armed soldier, who has no business to be inside the building in the first place should have been considered as a hostile.


I am a firm believer of the fact that once you get anrgy---your learing abilities disappear---once anger takes over thinking, the resulting reaction is more of self destruction.

The swat operation proves that the taliban cannot stand in front of the might of the millitary----any millitary---with a 30,000 strong force assaulting with all the fire power---even if there were a 100 thousand taliban troops, they would have been slaughtered---the millitary has big guns---they have armour and tanks---they have air support---they can pound the living day-lights out of the taliban as they did in swat at their discretion.

Swat showed what pak millitary can do---but the biggest thing that came out of the swat action was that---why did the pak millitary not do that before hand----did the pak millitary had a different agenda than the rest of the pakistan---.

It is not for the regular joe to understand the threat level of the enemy insurgency---it is the job of the millitary to analyze and assess the threat and convey their reservations to the the govt to take the appropriate action.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think pakistan is over that stage , civilians are doing just fine, and army is defending the nation as needed

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hi,

If this is the standard---then there is no need to brag about it---this subject is not emotional---give reason and state your strategy and gamesmanship why you say what you state.

Right now---pak army has deep stains on their uniform---they got serious issues---and those are a lack of leadership.

Big deal swat---it should never have occured in the first place.

Please read this thread on the GHQ attack http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/36663-analysing-ghq-attack-shaukat-qadir.html. I disagree with your contention that there was some sort of cataclysmic failure there.

The attack was a propaganda victory no doubt, but that propaganda victory was assured once Intel was not able to pre-empt the attack.

Finally, Swat should not have happened, but the PA alone is not to blame for that - the political leadership, the people of Pakistan, all share blame.

No one supported the Army's operations in Swat, not the politicians and not the people - it took implementing Nizam-e-Adl in Swat and the expansion of the Taliban into Buner and Dir to get that support.

The PA has done fine given the circumstances and constraints. It could have done better, but it has not failed either.

 

[S-2]

A.M.

Your point about the political mitigation of the P.A.'s efforts in the twin abortive SWAT ops is well-taken. Still, I'd likely contend that had the P.A. insisted on the benefits of undertaking those ops to completion then and there versus the potential downstream costs, they would likely have swayed the politicos

As to the penetration of your GHQ, the reaction of your forces was fine. Remember, the Pentagon was also penetrated-at far greater human cost and material damage.

We were VERY unalert. Nonetheless, our responsibility following 9/11 included evaluating how such could have happened. All that's followed (Dept. of Homeland Security, etc.) has been, to a great degree, a function of that attack.

"Attack me once-Shame on you. Attack me twice-Shame on me"

We will be attacked again...successfully. Not for lack of trying, though.

In contrast, I'd submit without knowing particulars, that those terrorists should not-given ALL that's going on presently and, really, since the Marriott bombing, gotten CLOSE to your GHQ. No way.

M.K. is correct about the casual and callous approach that would permit armed uniformed men to penetrate the highest levels of your nat'l security leadership.

They appear to have had a good plan ruthlessly executed. Peshawar, Lahore, and Rawalpindi have all had significant attacks on Police, F.C. and P.A. facilities in the last three-five months.

Rhetorical alarm bells should be ringing near-constantly within your security forces.

Security must become more onerous, multi-layed, and distant from these nodes.

We learned a slew of tactical lessons in Iraq relative to these ops. They all start with proper and thorough traffic control points. Even there, each point is, itself, multi-layered.

Anyway, the effort to rescue was fine. There are, and should be, serious questions related to the penetration though. It was likely preventable, IMV.

Thanks.